Amazing stat on Larry Johnson

[Stout]

I'm not going to shut my mouth, I dislike Penn State and most of the other Little 11 schools, I think they are consistently the most overrated conference and hate the bias they get by the voters.

Yeah, I'm bias, but I'm surely not going to shut my mouth because YOU tel me to!

All right, you're biased, enough said. Who's your school, btw? What conference?

 

[Pariah]

The funniest one you put up was Suhey....the guy was a BACKUP! He had less career TD's in 10 years than Shaun Alexander had THIS year.

Suhey was a fullback--a starting FB, and a damned good one.

 

[jstadvl]

I wonder

how long he can keep going that way. He takes some brutal hits getting where he's going. But man, he would look good in a Cardinal uniform.
Alas, he's not going anywhere, especially with the injury to Holmes.
We could take lessons from that o-line and it's schemes.

 

[CardLogic]

Here are your words:

...the fact still remains that most all Penn State RBs are worthless.

I put up the names of seven Penn State RB's that contradict your statement. I never said they were all great, or All-Pro; but they weren't worthless and they weren't busts. Nothing in your subsequent posts refute this.

For every Penn State RB you can name which bust in the NFL, I can name two which had successful NFL careers.

However if you prefer, feel free to rattle on with baseless comments.

 

[Card Trader]

However if you prefer, feel free to rattle on with baseless comments.

Curtis Enis
Mike Archie
Stephen Pitts
Ki-Jana Carter
Gary Brown
Leroy Thompson
Blair Thomas
Steve Smith
Tim Manoa
D.J. Dozier
Tony Mumford
Jon Williams


That is the list of PSU Rbs drafted between Larry Johnson and Curt Warner.

I'd say it's an argument that has a "base"....there are a number of those that were high picks also.

 

[CardLogic]

I'd say it's an argument that has a "base"....there are a number of those that were high picks also.

LOL! Gotta laugh; thanks to the internet it is easy to look up info on people and things that would otherwise be obscure. How many of the names you listed are you familiar with? So let’s take a look at the your list.

First the names familiar to most everyone. DJ Dozier, Blair Thomas, Ki-Jana Carter, and Curtis Enis. These are the four the one thinks of when making the argument that Penn State RB’s bust in the NFL.

Four 1st round picks; four careers ravished by multiple injuries. No doubt a bad “run”. I guess it goes back to the subjective argument, “can a career ruined by injuries be termed a bust” (think Andre Wadsworth).

The four:
D.J. Dozier – 1st round 1987-90 MIN, 1991 DET
Due to injuries, out of 5 years in the NFL Dozier only managed to participate in more than 9 games in only one season. Over the 5 years he had a 4.0 ypc average. Not a bad ypc; injuries ruined his career.

Blair Thomas - 1st round 1990-93 NYJ 1994 NE and DAL, 1995 CAR
His first two years with the Jets when he played 15 and 16 games respectively Thomas was the Jets leading rusher, averaging 5.0 ypc in 1990 and 3.9 ypc the following year. However due to the Jets (Bruce Coslet) belief in platooning RB’s, Thomas only carried the rock 123 and 189 times respectively. In 1992, Thomas had a 4.5 ypc but played in only 9 games due to injury. The following year Thomas’ ypc dropped to 3.7, and again was cut short by injury. Interestingly enough Thomas had a 4.2 ypc over a six year career, certainly not terrible, same ypc as the NFL all-time rushing leader.

Ki-Jana Carter - 1st round 1995 CIN Carter’s NFL career was disrupted before it began. During a pre-season game in Carter’s rookie year he suffered a torn ACL, he never recovered his previous speed nor moves. This was just the beginning of Carter’s injuries. Carter has been on four teams, completely missed two of eight seasons and has been on the injured reserve list four times. His career rushing yards are only 1,127, he's played just 57 games and started only 14. "It was always just freak accidents," Carter said. "I blew my knee out, fractured my wrist, had an ACL, tore the tendons in my toe."

Curtis Enis – 1st round 1998-2000 CHI Was playing decently as a rookie (3.7 ypc) until suffering a torn ACL in the ninth game. Enis never looked as decisive and confident after tearing his knee up. Enis did rush for 916 yards in 1999 for a crappy Chicago team. But he was done a year later.


Now let’s look at the others you mentioned:

Mike Archie - 7th round 1996-98 HOU - a second team RB at Penn State drafted
for KR ability. Played 3 years in NFL for Oilers/Titans

Stephen Pitts - 6th round 1996 San Francisco - 5'-10" 192 RB Don’t remember him and can’t find any evidence that he ever actually played for the 49ers.

Gary Brown - 8th round 1991-95 HOU; 1997 SD 1998-99 NYG Eight year NFL career Brown had two 1000+ yard seasons and one at 945 yards. Career totals: 1032 carries, 4300 yards, 4.2 ypc.

Leroy Thompson - 6th round 1991-93 PIT; 1994 NE; 1995 KC; 1996 TB Six year career in NFL. 3.4 ypc avg.

Steve Smith - 3rd round 1987-93 LA Raiders; 1993-95 SEA Had good nine year career, some excellent years 88-91 with the Raiders. Career avg. 3.8 ypc from the FB position.

Tim Manoa - 3rd round 1987-89 CLE; 1991 IND Mediocre FB 4.0 ypc career Four years in NFL.

Tony Mumford - 12th round 1985 NE Never made it, no surprise for a 12th round pick

Jon Williams - 1984 3rd round NE Jon was team's kickoff man until Denver game (11-4), when put on IR because of an unstable left knee...was placed on IR Nov. 3...had 23 kickoff returns for 461 yards (20.0 average) with long run of 29 yards. Never cameback from injury.

So out of 12 players which are busts??? I count 5 inury decimated careers – Dozier, Thomas, Carter, and Enis; 2 that failed in the NFL – Mumford and Pitts; and 5 that had successful careers based upon their draft round.

Just for fun, using the same time frame, let’s take a look at RB’s drafted from USC (what many consider Running Back U).

USC Trojan RB’s in NFL draft from 1982-2004:

Marcus Allen – great one
Leroy Holt – no not Leroy Hoard (Michigan)
Aaron Emmanuel
Ricky Ervins
Scott Lockwood
Raoul Spears
Mazio Royster
Chad Morton
Justin Fargas – yet to be decided.

USC – maybe two good ones; the other seven???




Other “modern era” (since AFL-NFL merger) RB’s from Penn State include the following. Which of the 12 would you label as busts?

Mike Meade - 1982 5th round Green Bay Detroit
Sam Gash FB 1992 8th round New England
Richie Anderson FB 1993 6th round NY Jets/Cowboys
Jon Witman FB 1996 3rd round Pittsburgh
Brian Milne FB 1996 4th round Indianapolis
Omar Easy FB 2002 4th round Kansas City
Mike Guman 1980-88 Rams
Cappelletti 74-78 Rams/80-83 Chargers
Mitchell, Lydell; Baltimore, RB, 1972-77; San Diego, 1978-79;
Los Angeles Rams, 1980
Harris, Franco; Pittsburgh, RB, 1972-83; Seattle, 1984
Suhey, Matt; Chicago, RB, 1980-89
Warner, Curt; Seattle, RB, 1983-89; Los Angeles Rams, 1990

By my count at least 8 decent NFL careers out of these 12!


Here is a link to a couple of good reviews on the subject, albeit a little different perspective:

http://www.collegefootballnews.com/2004/Columnists/HistoricalDebate_RBURC.htm

http://www.collegefootballnews.com/2004/Columnists/HistoricalDebate_RBUFIU.htm


So put it to rest… the record of Penn State RB’s in the NFL no worse than any other school and better than most!

 

[Card Trader]

So you are saying 7 of the picks 3rd round or higher did just about nothing in the NFL and the argument doesn't have base? LOL?!?

No one is talking about USC

 

[CardLogic]

So you are saying 7 of the picks 3rd round or higher did just about nothing in the NFL and the argument doesn't have base? LOL?!?

No one is talking about USC

Huh? I don't follow your method of accounting...

12 players you named:

5 successful careers.
5 injury decimated careers, which I don't equate as bust, maybe you do.
2 which did nothing, one a 6th round selection and one a 12th rounder.
So where you get 7 failures from 3rd round or higher I don't know...

And, of course you choose to ignore the other 12 names I gave.

USC was mentioned for comparision since many people think that it is a school which consistently produces quality NFL backs. Therefore it is valid to make the comparision. Who would you choose as a comparision?

Basically, you are making the argument that Penn State RB's are unsuccessful in the NFL, yet when evaluated there is nothing to support your argument but your opinion. So yes, it's baseless!
I have statistically supported my opinion that Penn State RB's fare no worse than any other school in the NFL, and better than most!

 

[Card Trader]

Huh? I don't follow your method of accounting...

12 players you named:

5 successful careers.
5 injury decimated careers, which I don't equate as bust, maybe you do.
2 which did nothing, one a 6th round selection and one a 12th rounder.
So where you get 7 failures from 3rd round or higher I don't know...

And, of course you choose to ignore the other 12 names I gave.

USC was mentioned for comparision since many people think that it is a school which consistently produces quality NFL backs. Therefore it is valid to make the comparision. Who would you choose as a comparision?

Basically, you are making the argument that Penn State RB's are unsuccessful in the NFL, yet when evaluated there is nothing to support your argument but your opinion.

I have statistically supported my opinion that Penn State RB's fare no worse than any other school in the NFL, and better than most!

And I said the mantra that follows them is just, since the early 80s. You and I obviously have differing opinions on what succesful is for someone drafted in rounds 1-3. Succesful = starter with productive career, not backups.

It's also humorous that you try to justify someones career based on injuries.....High hopes + Injury = Bust.

 

[CardLogic]

And I said the mantra that follows them is just, since the early 80s. You and I obviously have differing opinions on what succesful is for someone drafted in rounds 1-3. Succesful = starter with productive career, not backups.

It's also humorous that you try to justify someones career based on injuries.....High hopes + Injury = Bust.

We have a difference of opinion whether a career ruined by injury equates to a bust. The whole of your argument is four players (five if you include Jon Williams, who was never among Penn State standouts) who all had their careers ransacked by injuries. Obviously you think that validates the statements "in the modern era Penn State RBs have been garbage" and "most all Penn State RBs are worthless". Even including those 5, I have provided names and statistics that contradict your empty arguments.

But just keep repeating your "mantra", if it makes you feel good!

 

[Card Trader]

We have a difference of opinion whether a career ruined by injury equates to a bust. The whole of your argument is four players (five if you include Jon Williams, who was never among Penn State standouts) who all had their careers ransacked by injuries. Obviously you think that validates the statements "in the modern era Penn State RBs have been garbage" and "most all Penn State RBs are worthless". Even including those 5, I have provided names and statistics that contradict your empty arguments.

But just keep repeating your "mantra", if it makes you feel good!

I, and every other person out there that isn't a PSU homer will continue that mantra

 

[Stout]

Forget it, Logic...your namesake fails to make an impression on him as it regards Penn State and the Big 10. He's admitted he hates the team and conference, and nothing you say or do, no matter how much evidence you show him, will sway him in his bias.