And the bench woes continue

[elindholm]

I'm surprised that you're impressed with Carter's effort. I think it's hovered between disinterested and pathetic ever since he got here.

Maybe what I really mean is that he has surpassed my expectations. I'm surprised that he bothered to suit up at all; I figured that he'd come down with some phantom knee injury as soon as the Suns started cutting his checks.

Carter's default facial expression is "disinterested"; it always has been, even when he was winning the dunk contest. I do see him making hustle plays, battling for rebounds, keeping his head up for loose balls, and so on. Does he do it as much as others on the team, no, but then this is Vince Carter that we're talking about. Given the effort that he's capable of demonstrating -- which isn't that much -- I'd say he's doing pretty well.

 

[BC867]

Does he do it as much as others on the team, no, but then this is Vince Carter that we're talking about. Given the effort that he's capable of demonstrating -- which isn't that much -- I'd say he's doing pretty well.

It is ironic that human nature tends to give credit to low achievers who show a ray of sunshine once in awhile and perhaps take for granted the people who try their best without fanfare.

In other words, overall I wouldn't say that Carter is doing pretty well. He is a disappointment.

If you were saying it tongue-in-cheek, well that's OK.

 

[Errntknght]

yeah, but the entire threat is a bit misleading isn't it? It's not necessarily the bench that's the problem. It's the offense without Steve Nash in the game. That's because there are two players missing from this year's roster... Amare Stoudemire and Leandro Barbosa. Maybe somebody could check the numbers on this, but I always liked Amare out there with the bench. He was able to initiate offense and it meant a little less the horrible defensive combination of Nash/Amare. Barbosa had his problems, but he was very good at breaking down defenses as well. Right now when Nash sits there really isn't another player who can consistently break down the opposing defense.

I'm too lazy to look up numbers right now, but I do wonder if it would make more sense to use Carter off the bench and put Pietrus in the starting lineup. It's sad. He is probably the second most capable playmaker on the team.

Joe Mama

You're definitely right about the problem being the lack of Nash - and the other side of the coin is keeping his minutes down. Gentry's pretty much given up on the second part with Nash playing 33.0 mpg, up a bit from last year.

Its hard to imagine playing Carter with second unit helping but, if it lit a fire under him, it would be worth doing. Historically, Hill is a better playmaker but he's done poorly with the second unit when that was tried - and its been some years since he's gotten many assists. IMO, the team would be better with Carter being benched completely, but given the state we're in every conceivable option should be tried - so why not play him when Nash is out, alongside Dragic or Dowdell, and see. I wouldn't expect to see him running the offense per se, but if he started attacking the basket somewhat like the VC of old he'd score some and lay the ball off for assists like he did then.

The team should still try to get Scottie Reynolds, he was much much better than Dowdell (or Jannings) in the summer league and he's reputedly playing in the D league. I was stunned when they didn't sign him - at the time it was said he didn't want to sign with the Suns and he signed a contract to play in Europe. I had trouble believing that he didn't want to play with Phoenix, though I suppose Dragic looked solidly embedded behind Nash to the casual observer. He shouldn't have any trouble seeing its wide open now.

As far as Amare and Barbosa being the reason the second unit is down from last year - it may be true for earlier years but not last year. Barbosa only played 33 games and Amare was almost never on the floor with the second unit - Amundson was his backup last year and he was the heart and soul of the second unit. When it was doing its best Gentry played them as a group so Amundson was on the floor when Dragic was.

Nice to have you drop in, as always.

 

[Griffin]

More of the same against Dallas, and this time it cost us.

The Suns were outscored 30-16 is just under 12 minutes that Nash rested, including a 15-5 six-minute stretch between third and fourth quarters. I think for the third straight game now the Suns had a lead when Nash left and were trailing when he came back.

For the game, Nash +8 in 36 minutes, Dragic -14 in only 12 minutes. How can you get outscored by 14 points in 12 minutes? That's more than a point a minute! This time the second unit not only had trouble scoring, but also couldn't get any stops.

What's amazing is that the Suns, with Nash on the floor, have outscored their opponent in 10 straight games and by an average of 13 points per game. If the Suns could only limit the damage done in those already very few minutes that Nash gets to rest, we'd win a lot more games.

 

[BC867]

Pietrus is adding much needed defense off the bench. But why is Dudley no longer part of the rotation?

Stick with Dudley at backup SG and Pietrus at backup SF in a 10-man rotation. It helped us go on a winning streak.

Why does it have to be one or the other?

C - Lopez/Gortat (not necessarily in that order )
PF- Frye/Warrick
SF- Hill/Pietrus
SG-Carter/Dudley
PG-Nash/Dragic

I think it would have won us the Dallas game.

 

[Chaplin]

More of the same against Dallas, and this time it cost us.

The Suns were outscored 30-16 is just under 12 minutes that Nash rested, including a 15-5 six-minute stretch between third and fourth quarters. I think for the third straight game now the Suns had a lead when Nash left and were trailing when he came back.

For the game, Nash +8 in 36 minutes, Dragic -14 in only 12 minutes. How can you get outscored by 14 points in 12 minutes? That's more than a point a minute! This time the second unit not only had trouble scoring, but also couldn't get any stops.

What's amazing is that the Suns, with Nash on the floor, have outscored their opponent in 10 straight games and by an average of 13 points per game. If the Suns could only limit the damage done in those already very few minutes that Nash gets to rest, we'd win a lot more games.

And that is exactly why we lost against the Mavs, although everyone is blaming Gentry for bizarre lineups. Bizarre or not, even when we went small we stayed even (and even outplayed) Dallas.

 

[BC867]

Bizarre or not, even when we went small we stayed even (and even outplayed) Dallas.

Except when it mattered most. After Tyson Chandler came back in, to get an unchallenged put-back and Dallas opened up the lead to win the game.

They say you can't argue with success. But we lost the game!

 

[Chaplin]

Except when it mattered most. After Tyson Chandler came back in, to get an unchallenged put-back and Dallas opened up the lead to win the game.

They say you can't argue with success. But we lost the game!

And if the bench had not given up that 10 points at the start of the 4th, we would have won the game.

 

[BC867]

And if the bench had not given up that 10 points at the start of the 4th, we would have won the game.

I know you know better than believing that what goes on at the beginning of the 4th quarter is just as important as when we are within four points in the final few minutes -- and lose the game because their Center is in to kill us with two put-backs, while ours sits on the bench). That is when we had, and lost, the chance to win.

 

[jagu]

Made no sense to bench both centers at all, of course if you want to pick at other parts of the game and say that is why we lost you can but the fact is that Nash had no pick and roll player with him on the court and Gentry took away something that Nash works so well. He works off the pick and roll and finds either the pick setter or creates something else on the same play. The offense looked dead. It was blatantly obvious and I'm surprised Gentry did not see that.

 

[BC867]

I'm surprised Gentry did not see that.

Me, too. Will our Suns ever stop playing down to the other team?

Years ago I heard a definition of a bad coach/good coach/great coach.

A bad coach takes weeks to adjust to a situation.
A good coach takes until the next game.
A great coach adjusts during the game.

Gentry is not a bad coach and not a great coach. He's a good coach.

After all, he never repeated inserting Childress to jump Center at the start of a game.

But, wait a minute, he hasn't adjusted to using our best Center to start the game. Hmmm.

 

[Errntknght]

Our team is the most polarized team in scoring - the team averages -.4 points net per game and the starters Nash, Hill, Carter, Lopez and Frye all have positive +/- , while the bench is uniformly negative. Dragic and Dowdell lead the way for the bench, as you'd expect, with truly horrible numbers.

Here is the bench +/-, normalized per minute:
Dudley -.050/min
Pietrus -.098/min
Gortat -.111/min
Warrick -.117/min
Childress -.119/min
Dragic -.257/min
Dowdell -.330/min (only 10 games)

Those last two are not quite league worst numbers but they are close - you have to dig among the teams that net -5 points or more per game to find other players with worse numbers.

Normally, I'd interpret the bench numbers to mean they are all somewhat worse than the starters and playing mostly with each other, they drag each other down. Watching the games its rather clear that the difference is that Nash is on the floor less with them and that accounts for most of the difference.

One interesting side note: the Jazz are very close to the Suns in overall point differential -.3 points per game. Starters Kirolenko, Deron Williams, Raja Bell and Al Jefferson all have negative +/-, while Millsap plus their bench players have positive ones.

The numbers are from the Autotrader +/- site.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp

 

[BC867]

... the starters Nash, Hill, Carter, Lopez and Frye all have positive +/- , while the bench is uniformly negative. Dragic and Dowdell lead the way for the bench, as you'd expect, with truly horrible numbers.

So whoever plays with our bench Point Guards are doomed to have minuses.

I hope the Front Office is working feverishly behind the scenes to come up with one natural, legitimate, NBA-quality backup Point Guard. Starting with tying up the position with Barbosa, they sure haven't.

Which is why I hate to see the potential of Gortat being eroded as a bench player. On this team, it is a stigma. Hell, it's an albatross.

 

[AzStevenCal]

So whoever plays with our bench Point Guards are doomed to have minuses.

I hope the Front Office is working feverishly behind the scenes to come up with one natural, legitimate, NBA-quality backup Point Guard. Starting with tying up the position with Barbosa, they sure haven't.

Which is why I hate to see the potential of Gortat being eroded as a bench player. On this team, it is a stigma. Hell, it's an albatross.

If someone posted evidence that certain kinds of mushrooms are deadly would you present that as further proof that Gortat should start? We get the point, you believe that Gortat should start. Many of us, probably most of us, agree with you. Speaking solely for myself, I'm fascinated by your unwavering attention to this one small facet of our team given that it seems to me to be just one of many problems and ALL of them pale in comparison to the fact that we rely far too heavily on one player.

As has been said time and again, Gortat plays many of his minutes with Nash. Even if Marcin was the starter, he's not likely to play a whole lot more minutes with Steve and it's a pretty safe bet that Robin will be an even greater disappointment than usual if he's relegated to backup duty. Combine those two factors and I don't see this being as huge of an issue as it keeps getting made out to be.

Personally, I think Robin should be the backup and Gortat should start but IMO we will also lose almost as much as we gain by putting Gortat in as a starter. Starting Gortat should and probably will happen but I doubt it adds enough to this team to change the outcome of more than a game or two at most.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

If someone posted evidence that certain kinds of mushrooms are deadly would you present that as further proof that Gortat should start? We get the point, you believe that Gortat should start. Many of us, probably most of us, agree with you. Speaking solely for myself, I'm fascinated by your unwavering attention to this one small facet of our team given that it seems to me to be just one of many problems and ALL of them pale in comparison to the fact that we rely far too heavily on one player.

As has been said time and again, Gortat plays many of his minutes with Nash. Even if Marcin was the starter, he's not likely to play a whole lot more minutes with Steve and it's a pretty safe bet that Robin will be an even greater disappointment than usual if he's relegated to backup duty. Combine those two factors and I don't see this being as huge of an issue as it keeps getting made out to be.

Personally, I think Robin should be the backup and Gortat should start but IMO we will also lose almost as much as we gain by putting Gortat in as a starter. Starting Gortat should and probably will happen but I doubt it adds enough to this team to change the outcome of more than a game or two at most.

Steve

Exactly. See, it's not that people are against Gortat starting--what they are against is this consistent complaining that it should happen when it really won't make much of a difference in the long run. What we gain with Gortat starting we will most definitely lose with Robin coming off the bench.

I have no problem with Gortat starting, but I do have some issues with Robin Lopez off the bench, much like the issues I have with Channing or Grant Hill coming off the bench. Lopez's production as a starter is at a minimum, and I can't imagine his performance off the bench being anything but a negative.

We have so many other problems that are MUCH more urgent than the starting C position and BC really just ignores them. It's quite fascinating.

 

[Griffin]

Here is the bench +/-, normalized per minute:
Dudley -.050/min
Pietrus -.098/min
Gortat -.111/min
Warrick -.117/min
Childress -.119/min
Dragic -.257/min
Dowdell -.330/min (only 10 games)

The numbers are from the Autotrader +/- site.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp

I've looked at those stats as well, and what is even more remarkable is what has transpired over the last 10 games (right after our last three-game losing streak). Here's the top 25 players in the NBA over the last 10 games they played:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22010&split=22&team=

Over the last ten games, Nash is leading the league in +/- at +13 per game (and also +0.372 per minute which tops the league by a wide margin among players who play significant minutes). Note that Grant Hill is second in the league. In fact, all five Suns starters ranked in the top 25 in the league during that stretch. Even Carter, who struggled quite a bit. That is the benifit of playing a lot of minutes with Nash on the floor. The best non-Suns player? LeBron James at +10.2 per game, but only +0.264 per minute.

That site also lists any number of player combinations, and the Suns rank highly in all those as well. For example, the Suns have top three 2-player combinations and 7 in the top 25 over the past 10 games:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=2&season=22010&split=22&team=

Basically, the Suns have dominated their opponents when Nash was on the floor in the past 10 games, outscoring teams by an average of 13 points in 36 minutes per game. Unfortunately, in the same stretch the Suns were outscored by their opponents by an average of 7.3 points in just 12 minutes per game. That's -0.608 points per minute, mostly while Dowdell was running the offense, with Dragic stepping in the last two games. This is a mind-boggling statistic, imo. With Nash on the floor, recently we have played like the best team in the league. Without him, we played like the worst.

 

[Errntknght]

Actually, there is one argument for starting Gortat: Gentry probably needs to make some kind of move to get the team into the playoffs and that is a fairly significant move. Unlike everyone else, I don't know whether it would help or hurt the team - I could see it going either way. One reason Gentry may elect to try it is that he'd be relatively immune to criticism since its clear that Gortat is the better player most days. The reason not to try it is that it clearly doesn't address the his big problem - the team's awful performance when Nash sits. Unless the move gave Lopez a surprising burst of energy and confidence, it could make the disparity between the starters and subs worse. Even if the net result was no change overall, a larger disparity could be viewed as negative in itself.

What other options does Alvin have? One that's been mentioned a few times, is moving VC to the second unit - taking the floor when either Dragic or Dowdell is subbed for Nash. It would take a Hell of a sales job to get Carter to buy into it. Could he be persuaded that it might be blaze of glory for him if he could play his butt off for 12-15 minutes a game and lift the second unit up out its pitiful state.

 

[slinslin]

And there is an argument against Gortat starting. No matter how well he might do individually it is fact that the team does not play very well with him evidenced by the fact that Gortat has the 2nd worst +/- on the team with a huuuuuge difference to the third worst.

Might as well start Dragic who is just slightly worse in that department but

And when you look at 5-man unit statistics you would discover that the starters don't play well with Gortat either. Especially Nash who leads the league in +/- net stats.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10PHO16.HTM#5man

 

[AzStevenCal]

Actually, there is one argument for starting Gortat: Gentry probably needs to make some kind of move to get the team into the playoffs and that is a fairly significant move. Unlike everyone else, I don't know whether it would help or hurt the team - I could see it going either way. One reason Gentry may elect to try it is that he'd be relatively immune to criticism since its clear that Gortat is the better player most days. The reason not to try it is that it clearly doesn't address the his big problem - the team's awful performance when Nash sits. Unless the move gave Lopez a surprising burst of energy and confidence, it could make the disparity between the starters and subs worse. Even if the net result was no change overall, a larger disparity could be viewed as negative in itself.

What other options does Alvin have? One that's been mentioned a few times, is moving VC to the second unit - taking the floor when either Dragic or Dowdell is subbed for Nash. It would take a Hell of a sales job to get Carter to buy into it. Could he be persuaded that it might be blaze of glory for him if he could play his butt off for 12-15 minutes a game and lift the second unit up out its pitiful state.

Actually, I think that's the case for many of us. The few that are adamant about starting Gortat seem to be positive it will be the right move but most of us fall in the unconvinced group. I think it will be a net positive for the team but just barely. However, even if it turns out to be the wrong move I doubt it will have a significant effect on the overall results.

As for Carter, I don't know if he has enough left to make much of a difference on the second squad. If he can't take over a game when he's surrounded by our best players I'm not sure he'll fare better with lesser talents around him.

Steve

 

[BC867]

We have so many other problems that are MUCH more urgent than the starting C position and BC really just ignores them. It's quite fascinating.

Don't say things that aren't true. Yes, I have championed the cause of making Gortat the starting Center, not just for the benefits this year, but for the future as well.

But I have not ignored our other problems -- no worthy backup Point Guard during Nash's years, not replacing Amar'e with a legitimate Power Forward, too many Wing players, etc.

 

[Chaplin]

Don't say things that aren't true. Yes, I have championed the cause of making Gortat the starting Center, not just for the benefits this year, but for the future as well.

But I have not ignored our other problems -- no worthy backup Point Guard during Nash's years, not replacing Amar'e with a legitimate Power Forward, too many Wing players, etc.

LOL, seriously? I'll give you a break, ok, you've posted maybe 2 out of 100 times about our other positions. But let's face it--98% of your posts are currently about Gortat starting. You have valid points, but that doesn't erase the fact that it's all you ever post about.

 

[BC867]

LOL, seriously? I'll give you a break, ok, you've posted maybe 2 out of 100 times about our other positions. But let's face it--98% of your posts are currently about Gortat starting. You have valid points, but that doesn't erase the fact that it's all you ever post about.

Currently, predominantly about Gortat. But 98%, I don't think so. But the exaggeration made me chuckle.

Nothing personal, but your 98% quote reminds me of the old quote, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure." I'm not calling you a liar, just an exaggerator.

 

[Errntknght]

And there is an argument against Gortat starting. No matter how well he might do individually it is fact that the team does not play very well with him evidenced by the fact that Gortat has the 2nd worst +/- on the team with a huuuuuge difference to the third worst.

Might as well start Dragic who is just slightly worse in that department but

And when you look at 5-man unit statistics you would discover that the starters don't play well with Gortat either. Especially Nash who leads the league in +/- net stats.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10PHO16.HTM#5man

Slinslin, if you follow your link and then click on Phoenix Suns below Gortat's name, you will see that the last update to the stats for the team was 1/19/2011 - in other words the stats you are basing your post on are a month out of date. By the way, I added up Gortats minutes from the 20 lineups listed and they are consistent with ending a month ago so the cutoff date of 1/19 is probably not just a typo.

I've tried entering 82games sites a variety of different ways and I haven't found any path that includes data after 1/19... if you know of or find a path that gets to their later data, please let me know.

I've been using this site in place of 82games lately - its doesn't have all the same data or organization but at least its current.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp

 

[Mainstreet]

Currently, predominantly about Gortat. But 98%, I don't think so. But the exaggeration made me chuckle.

Nothing personal, but your 98% quote reminds me of the old quote, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure." I'm not calling you a liar, just an exaggerator.

BC867, you are relentless in your talk about big men (Gortat or otherwise) when talking about the Suns. I guess you found one you like.

 

[BC867]

BC867, you are relentless in your talk about big men (Gortat or otherwise) when talking about the Suns. I guess you found one you like.

Actually, I'm glad the Suns found one I like.

When you look back over our whole history at Center . . .

-- Neal Walk. A good guy, but the consolidation prize to Lou Alcindor/Kareem.
-- Alvan Adams. 212 lbs. at Center for a decade. 'Nuff said.
-- Mark West. A good guy, but a walking foul call.
-- Andrew Lang. Held the bell about two feet off the floor.
-- Oliver Miller. A big baby at 300+ lbs. (I used to see him at Paradise Valley Mall acting like a big baby).
-- Rick Robey. A third-string, role-playing Center at Power Forward (at the expense of Dennis Johnson).
-- Joe Klein, James Edwards, etc., mediocre.
-- Robin Lopez. The worst of Oliver Miller and Andrew Lang combined. A man-child who fell into the starting Center position until someone better comes along.

-- Marcin Gortat. The "someone better" we've been waiting for 40+ years.