Another Marion trade that works under the cap

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by Chaplin
And just how overpaid is Marion? That's the real question. And consider the rest of the players we could get in return, but I will wager that a good 85% of them are overpaid much worse than Marion is.

For the last two offseason signings, Marion is the only one I can recall to be overpaid in an out-of-proportion way. Oh, I forgot LaFrenz. Make it two. But it's subjective.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Considering that the biggest problem with Marion is shot selection and his tendence to jump on fakes when defending, I think Marion could be a lot better than he is. Almost every guy who is available is someone his teams thinks is not going to get better.

George,

you apprarently didn't read my previous analysis of Marion's natural problem carefully enough.

By nature, he can't move smoothly with his weight center down, the way JJ, Kobe can and do. What he is absolutely good at is quick jumping. Since he can't stay with his opponent's swift changing of possible directions to go by him, his best bet is to jump in the air and hoping for prayers!

So, by nature, he is a not so good one-on-one player both on offense and defense, where one has to stay down and low in position for long enough while keeping all the options for next step/move open. He just can't seem able to control it. He just has to commit to a course of direction very early. But he excells when nobody has the possion of the ball yet, like rebounding, or when the opponent player has indeed committed to a certain trajectory irreversibly, like doing a weakside block or help defense. Just watch how he moves to confirm my observation! You have to live with this limitations.

 

[creed]

Chaplin

"And just how overpaid is Marion? That's the real question. And consider the rest of the players we could get in return, but I will wager that a good 85% of them are overpaid much worse than Marion is."

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Considering that the biggest problem with Marion is shot selection and his tendence to jump on fakes when defending, I think Marion could be a lot better than he is. Almost every guy who is available is someone his teams thinks is not going to get better.

O'Brian your post has no relevance to Chaplins post

 

[creed]

It would be nice to someday pin down these Marion haters on what Marions actual worth is and whom they would trade him for. All these vague comments of "Marion is overpaid" and "Marion isnt a go to guy".

How about more specifics? I mean since Marion is so overpaid and all you must have NUMEROUS players you'd trade Marion for...correct? Lets get a bunch of names and salaries out there!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

For the love of god I am wishing Penny was back so the same 3 people would quit trying to trade Marion every five seconds.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by creed
It would be nice to someday pin down these Marion haters on what Marions actual worth is and whom they would trade him for. All these vague comments of "Marion is overpaid" and "Marion isnt a go to guy".

How about more specifics? I mean since Marion is so overpaid and all you must have NUMEROUS players you'd trade Marion for...correct? Lets get a bunch of names and salaries out there!

I couldn't agree with you more, although they do come up with trades. The problem is that none of them actually make sense (anyone who thinks Antoine Walker is worth Marion, White and two firsts is beyond reasoning with).

Constant repetition of the phrase "he's not smooth enough" does not mean it's true or at least "true enough" to make a difference.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

People who are convinced they are correct will make excuses to the point to justify to themselves that they are indeed correct.

These discussions about trading Marion aren't even discussions anymore.

They are bludgeon you with volume of the same drivel over and over until you agree with me.

I am just starting to use my ignore button.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by cly2tw
For the last two offseason signings, Marion is the only one I can recall to be overpaid in an out-of-proportion way. Oh, I forgot LaFrenz. Make it two. But it's subjective.

When you're talking about recent signings, well, then that might just be a different conversation. However, I was referring to any currently contracted player receiving the same kind of money as Marion.

Keith Van Horn? He's overpaid much more than Marion. Allan Houston? Ugh. Damon Stoudemire.

The list goes on and on. You can't reallly name many players that make as much as Marion and DESERVE that much. Those that do, would never be traded for Shawn Marion.

How out of proportion do you believe he's overpaid? I believe it's probably around 2-3 million dollars, and in today's NBA, that isn't that much.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
How out of proportion do you believe he's overpaid? I believe it's probably around 2-3 million dollars, and in today's NBA, that isn't that much.

I agree. Most of the bargains are still under rookie contracts. There were a few who signed long term contracts before they got really really good. And there are a few players who signed contracts for way under their potential market value for personal reasons.

The real key on whether a player is overpaid is not the absolute amount, bu the percentage. Marion is no more than 20-25% overpaid. Penny is at least 75-80% overpaid. Van Horn is probably 50% or more overpaid.

If Marion's jump shot returns, I think his value will get closer to what he is being paid though probably not equal.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
When you're talking about recent signings, well, then that might just be a different conversation. However, I was referring to any currently contracted player receiving the same kind of money as Marion.

Keith Van Horn? He's overpaid much more than Marion. Allan Houston? Ugh. Damon Stoudemire.

The list goes on and on. You can't reallly name many players that make as much as Marion and DESERVE that much. Those that do, would never be traded for Shawn Marion.

How out of proportion do you believe he's overpaid? I believe it's probably around 2-3 million dollars, and in today's NBA, that isn't that much.

But he is talking about recent signings. Most of the guys you are talking about were signed before teams started getting more frugal with their salary. That said, I would throw Gilbert Arenas and Steve Francis in there also.

I can honestly see both sides to this argument. I've been complaining about Shawn Marion's contract for some time. However I'm not willing to blame everything that is wrong with the Phoenix Suns on him like some people. I honestly don't think that Antoine Walker trade proposal is that outrageous as long as they are sure that Walker will opt out of his contract. I'm not even sure Dallas would make that trade.

But see I believe Shawn Marion has a lot of room for improvement. I also believe he will improve significantly. I wrote in another thread earlier this evening that Shawn Marion's strength is first four years in the NBA was his midrange jump shot. That is where he is really struggling this season. If he was hitting at shot with consistency this season unless would be talking about trading him. I think it was Chris Sanders who said last night he believes that its this year that is the fluke as opposed to his previous four seasons. I tend to agree. I also think that Shawn Marion has already improved his ballhandling significantly, and he will continue to improve it.

Basically I don't think there's any chance the Phoenix Suns are going to trade Shawn Marion unless they return a superstar in the deal, or they are sure they will be able to get one in free agency with that salary cap room. Still, I don't understand what the problem is with proposing trades even if they are unrealistic. I could care less if people complain about him being overpaid. I do that. I have started skipping through some of these posts complaining about and overanalyzing every little aspect of his game though.

Joe Mama

 

[creed]

I also can see both sides of the argument...

Is Shawn overpaid? The consensus is yes and I agree with that. But is Shawn so overpaid that we must dwell on it like his salary is holding us back? I think not. Marion is actully less overpaid than the majority of max players out there. Also, even though Marion is probably overpaid 2-3 million per season one advantage is Shawn is under long term contract. Having a quality (non-injured, non-fat) player under long term contract is a plus in the NBA world because it "secures the asset" as Brian Colangelo likes to say. If we were to trade Marion the other team wouldnt have to worry about re-signing Marion for a long time. So lets not underestimate Marions trade value because it's not based strictly on salary...salary is only one factor in Marion trade value. Contract length, age of player, statistics, character issues, all can play a part in a players trade value.

I'm not looking to trade Marion because his game is a little off for the moment. As we have seen Marion can turn it on at any time and have a great game. The great thing about Marion is he has a variety of ways he can contribute. Many have stated Marion was given a max contract to "create his own shot" but I differ in that view. Marion was given close to a max contract because of his OVERALL GAME. Marion is a fundamentally sound player and thats why he usually has a very high NBA Efficiency Ranking. He does a lot out there so lets not be so quick to give him up.

 

[fordronken]

Wow. Sorry I started this thread. And for the record, you people have put a great deal more frustration, anger, anxiety and effort into this idea than I did. I just heard about some "trade Marion" threads and tried to think of one that the other team may actually consider. No, wait. I forgot. Apparently I was venting sexual frustrations stemming from an abusive childhood, while being raised by an interracial, homosexual set of parents who locked me in a box and treated me like a baby cow they were preparing to be served as veal while whispering gently in my ear, "Nobody loves you...nobody loves you..."-- and it was all manifested into one life-altering, self delusional, demon driven mentality that we have to trade Shawn Marion or my life will lack purpose.

Sorry for the confusion. I'm glad you understand.

 

[George O'Brien]

Sure, it happens all the time.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by fordronken
Wow. Sorry I started this thread. And for the record, you people have put a great deal more frustration, anger, anxiety and effort into this idea than I did. I just heard about some "trade Marion" threads and tried to think of one that the other team may actually consider. No, wait. I forgot. Apparently I was venting sexual frustrations stemming from an abusive childhood, while being raised by an interracial, homosexual set of parents who locked me in a box and treated me like a baby cow they were preparing to be served as veal while whispering gently in my ear, "Nobody loves you...nobody loves you..."-- and it was all manifested into one life-altering, self delusional, demon driven mentality that we have to trade Shawn Marion or my life will lack purpose.

Sorry for the confusion. I'm glad you understand.

Lol! If you think that's nearly tragic enough to get to off the hook I'm afraid you are sorely mistaken.

Joe Mama