Antonio McDyess

[jorje29]

I just want to ask this forum : Do you want to resign McDyess or not ? He's a free-agent this summer but fans don't talk about him as he's a priority. His disadvantage is that he plays the same position as Amare. How much, do you think he's worth, right now ?

McDyess at New York - stats - rankings - comparison

McDyess at Phoenix - stats - rankings - comparison

 

[George O'Brien]

I just want to ask this forum : Do you want to resign McDyess or not ? He's a free-agent this summer but fans don't talk about him as he's a priority. His disadvantage is that he plays the same position as Amare. How much, do you think he's worth, right now ?

McDyess at New York - stats - rankings - comparison

McDyess at Phoenix - stats - rankings - comparison

Up until two weeks ago, it was considered a non-issue. Dice had not played much and was ineffective when he did play. Since then he has played well enough to suggest that he may recover enough from his injury to be a solid or better than solid player.

The general ambivelance over re-signing Dice has to do with price. No one wants to sign him if he would require $20 million over 4 years while almost everyone would support signing him if they could get him for the $1 million veteran minimum. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

The fact that Dice is a PF is not a huge problem. Amare should not be playing 40 minutes a game anyway, so Dice could get 13 to 18 minutes a game backing up Stoudemire.

In the past two weeks, Dice has proven that he is able to play center against many but not all NBA centers. For him to get significant minutes at center next season, he would have to be get into much better shape and become a lot stronger. None the less, he has shown that he can score, rebound, and provide some veteran leadership even when he is not in top shape.

One of the reasons for the reluctance to talk about Dice is that any committment to Dice, above the veteran minimum, takes away cap money that might be used to sign Kobe. Another problem is that Dice broke a lot of fan's hearts when he jumped ship to go back to Denver and there is lingering resentment. A key problem is the fear that Dice will reinjure his knee so few people want to give him more than a one year contract.

My read is that the Suns might not try to re-sign Dice if they get to draft Okafor, but otherwise I think they will try if they can get him for a minimal contract.

 

[SweetD]

I would like to see McDyess back but for the right price. As a fan I think he does owe us something for bolting to Denver that year. I say give him a one year contract at the vet min. and see how he does. Then if he fits into our plans the following year I would gladdly give him a 1.5-3mil when White comes off the books.

 

[George O'Brien]

I would like to see McDyess back but for the right price. As a fan I think he does owe us something for bolting to Denver that year. I say give him a one year contract at the vet min. and see how he does. Then if he fits into our plans the following year I would gladdly give him a 1.5-3mil when White comes off the books.

JC sounded the same way when he was interviewed a about a week ago.

KTAR - 3-22-2004

Caller (Patrick, Cave Creek):
My second part is with Antonio McDyess, where he stands and whether or not he’s got another run in him with his knees, and whether or not the Suns are looking for a big man next year, maybe they can get a bargain in him and maybe he’s a sleeper for us.

Colangelo: I think you make a good point on Antonio. He left under unique circumstances a few years back and his career was never the same after that. He’s made a ton of money in this game and maybe we catch him on the rebound, if he’s willing to. And maybe he owes us one, if you will, and you may have a real bargain in McDyess and hopefully something like that might happen.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Typical JC double talk, but this was before he had a run of pretty good games last week. If was followed by a piece in the Arizona Republic on the 28th:


Republic: "Dice" Might Like to Stay For Less

"I definitely feel comfortable here," said McDyess, who will be 30 next season. "I'd rather stay here."

Even if it means turning down a more lucrative deal elsewhere?

"Even if?" McDyess contemplated. "I don't know yet. It's a possibility."

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

first, i'd like to resign him. i think he's a good gamble if we don't shower him with a lot of cash. his upside is still fairly considerable and between amare and dice there are enough minutes at both the power positions that we would get value out of having both on the roster.

second, i don't think he owes the suns a thing. would i like for him to think so? yes. but i don't think so. the suns took a calculated gamble when they traded for a pending free agent and lost. that's the way system works. dice made up his mind and moved on to a situation that he thought (incorrectly evidently) would be better for him. denver's underhanded (but not illegal) shenanigans aside, dice didn't pull a fast one on the suns, the suns merely blew it.

 

[elindholm]

second, i don't think he owes the suns a thing. would i like for him to think so? yes. but i don't think so. the suns took a calculated gamble when they traded for a pending free agent and lost. that's the way system works. dice made up his mind and moved on to a situation that he thought (incorrectly evidently) would be better for him. denver's underhanded (but not illegal) shenanigans aside, dice didn't pull a fast one on the suns, the suns merely blew it.

I basically agree, except for the minor point that Denver's shenanigans (I'll trust your spelling on that) most likely were illegal. (Just because you didn't get caught doesn't mean you didn't cheat.) But that is not McDyess's problem, and I agree that he doesn't owe the Suns anything. He might feel like he owes himself the opportunity to stick around with a good organization that is fond of him, but that is another matter.

Had I liked McDyess's game better during his first stint with the Suns (I considered him an underachieving disappointment, frankly), I might be more angry with the Nuggets, John Lucas, or the league over what happened. But I didn't feel cheated by McDyess when he left the first time, and I certainly won't feel cheated if he leaves this time around.

 

[Chaplin]

(I considered him an underachieving disappointment, frankly),

Would you still consider him underachieving if Ainge actually played him more?

 

[SweetD]

Would you still consider him underachieving if Ainge actually played him more?

He started all 81 games? and played 30+ minutes a night sure his numbers were down but he wasn't the main man like in Denver and I think his numbers were only down by a few points.

 

[elindholm]

Would you still consider him underachieving if Ainge actually played him more?

To be honest, I wasn't aware at the time of the alleged conflicts between him and Ainge. This was after I'd moved out of the Phoenix area and before I got League Pass, so I didn't get to watch them play very much. But I did follow the team carefully and look at every box score. Whether it was because Ainge wouldn't play him or not, McDyess just didn't put up very impressive numbers, and I don't recall much "buzz" about what he was bringing to the team (after the honeymoon was over).

I'd guess that, if Ainge was reluctant to play him, there was a reason. Ainge's passion for losing didn't take hold until he got the reins in Boston.

 

[Chaplin]

He started all 81 games? and played 30+ minutes a night sure his numbers were down but he wasn't the main man like in Denver and I think his numbers were only down by a few points.

But those 30+ minutes were primarily all in the first 3 quarters. No matter what he did, Ainge wouldn't let him in the game at crunch time.

 

[George O'Brien]

But those 30+ minutes were primarily all in the first 3 quarters. No matter what he did, Ainge wouldn't let him in the game at crunch time.

I don't have any doubt that the Suns had a guard/SF oriented offense when Ainge was coach. The Suns 1997-98 team won 56 games during the regular season and finished 5 games out of first place.

: Chapman averaged 15.9 ppg, Kidd 11.6 ppg, Kevin Johnson 9.5 ppg, Nash 9.1 pgg to go along with Manning 13.5 ppg and Robinson 14.2 ppg both of whom played outside. McDyess averaged 15.1 ppg in 30.1 minutes - but this was mostly on fast breaks.

With that much firepower, it was unlikely the Suns would get Dice the number of touches he might have preferred. The Suns as a team averaged 46.8% from the field and scored an average of 99.8 ppg.

This was a very good team, but losing Dice led to a series of blunders and unfortunate injuries that would destroy the team. If the Suns had signed Dice while they had the chance, kept their main players and signed some draft picks...

basketballreference.com

Suns.com

 

[F-Dog]

I'm in the minority as usual, but I don't see any point in the Suns re-signing McDyess.

Say they sign him to a two-year contract. What is he going to do for them? Lead them to a championship? Of course not. He'll be worth a few wins, and the cost will be that he'll take the role that the Suns originally earmarked for Zarko (remember 'tall ball'?), meaning that Zarko will wind up spending most of his three-year rookie contract on the bench.


It's probably a moot point, though, because I bet McDyess would prefer to go where he knows he'll get playing time, instead of staying here and hoping against the best-case scenario, where both Lampe and Zarko get good over the summer. If money is an issue (and it probably is) then McDyess is going to wind up with a team that needs to win now; that's the only way a team will throw a decent-sized long-term contract at an injury-prone, aging big man.

My bet is that McDyess either winds up finishing his circle of contrition in New Jersey, or goes back to Denver to replace Chris Anderson as the Nuggets' third big...until they trade him again, at least...

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm in the minority as usual, but I don't see any point in the Suns re-signing McDyess.

Say they sign him to a two-year contract. What is he going to do for them? Lead them to a championship? Of course not. He'll be worth a few wins, and the cost will be that he'll take the role that the Suns originally earmarked for Zarko (remember 'tall ball'?), meaning that Zarko will wind up spending most of his three-year rookie contract on the bench.


It's probably a moot point, though, because I bet McDyess would prefer to go where he knows he'll get playing time, instead of staying here and hoping against the best-case scenario, where both Lampe and Zarko get good over the summer. If money is an issue (and it probably is) then McDyess is going to wind up with a team that needs to win now; that's the only way a team will throw a decent-sized long-term contract at an injury-prone, aging big man.

My bet is that McDyess either winds up finishing his circle of contrition in New Jersey, or goes back to Denver to replace Chris Anderson as the Nuggets' third big...until they trade him again, at least...

Before he was injured, Dice was one of the top inside guys in the NBA. He was strong enough to play defense against other PF's. In 2001-02 he averaged 20.8 ppg and 12.1 rpg. He shoots quite a number of jump shots, yet has a career shooting percentage of 49.3%. He has a career blocks per game average of 1.58.

If Dice were even vaguely close to the guy that was playing in Denver, he would be an impact player even if he is a bit small to play center (listed 6'9" 245). Right now he struggles on defense because he is not in top shape and needs to regain his upper body strength. But he is not a lot smaller than most starting centers in the NBA and has a lot more skills.

I would not be surprised if Dice could be the Suns starting center for the next couple of years while Lampe develops. After that, Dice might still get 30 minutes a game backing up both the PF and center positions.

Zarko? So far he has not shown enough strength to play inside and I think it is unrealistic to assume he will become a power player over the summer. I'd rather he focus on being a backup SF.

Assuming the Suns unload White, then depending on what the Suns do in the draft and free agency, the Suns could end up with only Voskuhl and Lampe to play center. Dice is likely to be a lot less expensive than most of the big men available through free agency and more talented than all but a few.

Actually Dice might be the ideal center for the period while Lampe is developing. Antonio would know that Lampe is the team's future and might not get upset as Lampe's minutes increased. Signing someone like Dampier could create problems as Lampe gets ready to start.

Right now Dice is rusty and out of shape, yet he is putting up better stats than Voskuhl did when completely healthy. I think Dice has a lot to offer and as long as he doesn't demand too much money the Suns should sign him.

 

[cly2tw]

It's really moot to discuss Dice as of now. But for speculation, the only sure thing is that the suns will not be able to sign him more than about the min.,(It's possible though that they sign him for one year at min. but keep his bird status so that they could compensate for whatever he could have signed as in case of Manning.) even if he proves to be a potential contributor for next season. So, it's up to Dice whether he'd forego higher pays elsewhere to stick with the Suns. The decision will certainly be affected by potential playing time he'll get from next year's team. So, in short, there are simply too much uncertainty ahead to make a sound prediction or recommendation.

 

[JS22]

I'm in the minority as usual, but I don't see any point in the Suns re-signing McDyess.

Say they sign him to a two-year contract. What is he going to do for them? Lead them to a championship? Of course not. He'll be worth a few wins, and the cost will be that he'll take the role that the Suns originally earmarked for Zarko (remember 'tall ball'?), meaning that Zarko will wind up spending most of his three-year rookie contract on the bench.


It's probably a moot point, though, because I bet McDyess would prefer to go where he knows he'll get playing time, instead of staying here and hoping against the best-case scenario, where both Lampe and Zarko get good over the summer. If money is an issue (and it probably is) then McDyess is going to wind up with a team that needs to win now; that's the only way a team will throw a decent-sized long-term contract at an injury-prone, aging big man.

My bet is that McDyess either winds up finishing his circle of contrition in New Jersey, or goes back to Denver to replace Chris Anderson as the Nuggets' third big...until they trade him again, at least...

Zarko, or a healthy mcdyess?
Zarko will never be half the player mcdyess is unless he puts on 30 pounds. He is kukoc on a bad day at best. now, lampe? A bigger version of.....Larry Bird....? (Yes, I just compared Lampe to Bird.)

 

[George O'Brien]

Zarko, or a healthy mcdyess?
Zarko will never be half the player mcdyess is unless he puts on 30 pounds. He is kukoc on a bad day at best. now, lampe? A bigger version of.....Larry Bird....? (Yes, I just compared Lampe to Bird.)

More than anything else, Zarko needs to be a lot stronger. Camby is not that much bigger than Zarko, but he is a heck of lot stronger.

BTW, adding size per se may not be a cure all for Euro's. Tskitishvili bulked up over the past summer and is even less productive than he was the year before. The key is to add strength without bulking up too quickly (remember Marion).

As of Lampe being another Larry Bird, that was how he was perceived when he was drafted. The Knicks tried to turn him into a SF but it didn't work out.

Ultimately I see Lampe developing as a Divac with a better jump shot.

 

[F-Dog]

Zarko? So far he has not shown enough strength to play inside and I think it is unrealistic to assume he will become a power player over the summer. I'd rather he focus on being a backup SF.

Gee, I don't know whether Zarko will be able to handle 8 minutes per game, two years from now. He'll probably have to split them with Casey Jacobsen.

(Seriously, there's no way the Suns can give McDyess, Lampe and Zarko significant minutes at the same time. Why shouldn't they play the two guys with a future?)


McDyess isn't a center, he isn't ever going to be the top-10 player he was in Denver (the second time), he's injury-prone, and he's on his way downhill. If the Suns need an experienced center, they'd be better off bringing back Scott Williams.

 

[JS22]

BTW, adding size per se may not be a cure all for Euro's. Tskitishvili bulked up over the past summer and is even less productive than he was the year before. The key is to add strength without bulking up too quickly (remember Marion).

Do you think Tskitshvilli just might be one of the biggest busts to ever enter the draft? I'm thinking he has a chance at winning that award and im SO GLAD that phoenix didnt do everything in there power to get them like originally thought. (Skiti or Amare.....wow...)

 

[JS22]

McDyess isn't a center, he isn't ever going to be the top-10 player he was in Denver (the second time), he's injury-prone, and he's on his way downhill. If the Suns need an experienced center, they'd be better off bringing back Scott Williams.

What, A williams will be a top ten center if we bring him back? Come on. Mcdyess is 5x as valuable to phoenix even with half the defense than williams could ever be.

Now, if antonio blows his knee out then thats another story.

 

[F-Dog]

What, A williams will be a top ten center if we bring him back? Come on. Mcdyess is 5x as valuable to phoenix even with half the defense than williams could ever be.

No, Williams is capable of filling the role of #3 center and clubhouse leader, without demanding a lot of money or minutes.

McDyess may help win games, but if his presence stunts the growth of Lampe or Zarko, he'll wind up hurting the Suns in the long run.

 

[Joe Mama]

Cabarkapa does need to add some strength, but I don't want to see him bulking up like Tskitishvili. I don't think Cabarkapa will ever be a prototypical power forward or even a good defensive player. I think he will be someone who comes off the bench and provides an instant spark on offense. Even now without much confidence in his shot he can come into a game and score points quickly.

IMO Cabarkapa just needs to get his outside shot back. That's what's been missing since his injury.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Cabarkapa does need to add some strength, but I don't want to see him bulking up like Tskitishvili. I don't think Cabarkapa will ever be a prototypical power forward or even a good defensive player. I think he will be someone who comes off the bench and provides an instant spark on offense. Even now without much confidence in his shot he can come into a game and score points quickly.

IMO Cabarkapa just needs to get his outside shot back. That's what's been missing since his injury.

Joe Mama

I certainly hope he can do more. I'd really like to have someone his size who can play defense against Dirk and some of the other really tall SFs that can shoot over Shawn.

 

[jorje29]

Zarko

I don't think he can be better than Marion, defensively. He's taller, yes that's true, but does this mean better defense ? I don't think so.

His best game : 17 pts - 9 reb ( see Cabarkapa best & worst games )

He can be double-figure scorer, if he plays 20-30 minutes

See Cabarkapa situational stats


After all, he has some upside.

 

[Errntknght]

Zarko certainly doesn't look like he has the frame for adding a lot of useful strength - and if he doesn't it'll be a miracle if he can defend at any position. He has some nice skills and he seems quite astute on the offensive end but a guy that can't defend gets attacked relentlessly in the playoffs - the fate Cedric Ceballos, and we along with him, suffered. Even his very high scoring rate couldn't bail him out in the playoffs because he was exploited on every possession he was on the floor.

One of the most significant problems the Suns have had since the beginning is that they have never given primary consideration to the NBA game as it in the playoffs. JC liked to brag, when it was true, that the Suns had the best or second best regular season record over some number of years. Big deal, you might as well brag about your winning record in pre-season games. Gimmicks like small ball or finesse ball may work in the regular season but in a sequence of seven game series, some coach - probably the first one you face - is going to take it apart. And the refs aren't going to help you.

Nowdays a defensive genius of a coach might be able to hide Zarko in the middle of a 2-1-2 zone for long enough stretches to be a slightly useful member of the team even in the playoffs. We don't have a coach like that and probably never will have as long as the C's are running the show. So what are the odds that Zarko will ever be a benefit to the team?

Keep him around another year to see if a miracle seems to be in the making but don't make him a major building block until you see it happen. In short, don't worry much about whether McDyess, or anyone else, might cut into his minutes. There are much more important things to worry about. Like finding out just what Lampe can do. Not to mention finding a coach for this seemingly talented young crew.

 

[Joe Mama]

IMO Cabarkapa is already strong enough and long enough to guard most of the small forwards in the NBA. He just needs work on his defensive skills. That's where I think he should be spending most of his time anyhow. I really do not like him at power forward unless they have to do it because of injuries or foul trouble.

Joe Mama