Poor Knick fans. They thought Amare was going to be their savior. Their Black Jesus, if you will.
Anyone feel bad for Mike D'Antoni?
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Poor Knick fans. They thought Amare was going to be their savior. Their Black Jesus, if you will.
boisesuns
Standing Tall And Traded
Yep. Watched some of the 4th and OT against the nuggets and Amare didn't even touch the ball for either. Their offense was come down, clear out for melo to chuck a shot up.
it was bad.
JustWinBaby
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He was looking that way prior to the acquisition of Carmelo and the destruction to the rest of their roster.
Amare was never a ball hog in Phoenix and only took good shots that were within the offense. That was probably his biggest strength. When he took a shot he had the highest return on investment in the league. That was generally the case last year in New York prior to Carmelo. He and Carmelo now have to create and score or the team has no chance. That is unfamiliar territory for Amare. He never was and is not a great one on one player.
When Amare only takes 9 shots he is called out for not being able to carry the team. He did that last night. I watched the game and he really did not pass up any good shot opportunities. He did keep the ball moving trying to gett better shots for his teammates. They built a sizable lead playing that way. Then Carmelo re-enterend the game, another loss resulted without Amare hardly touching the ball. Carmelo made nary a pass to Amare that I can remeber. When Amare takes and forces 25 bad shots, while missing most of them, he is overated. Far too many Knick fans think that when Melo goes 1 for 85 that he is just trying to win.
If you don't beleive it watch a Knick game when you get a chance. Not the highlights, the whole blasted game. They are on National TV a lot.
Amare and D'Antonni have no chance in the current environment. They both are the fall guys and it just is not all of their fault. If the truth be told they are far down the list.
For the life of me I have no idea why so many Phoenix Sun fans enjoy watching D'Antonni and Amare struggle. They provided many wins and much excitement in the desert. I can understand rooting against them when they are playing against the home team, but the rest of the league.
Why?
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Phrazbit
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In the words of Denny Green... because "They are who we thought they were".
Their struggles are confirming all the frustrations that close observers saw in the Suns over the years but when those guys went to NY and the media hype machine they got glossed over.
Mike was frustrating, I loved the system he put it, but his stubborness in not developing young players and using guys who didnt fit his system contributed a lot to the Suns current problems.
As for Amare, I always rooted for him while he wore a Suns uniform and I really liked him his first few years. But his lack of growth in any areas besides his jump shot really grated me. And it wouldnt have bothered me as much if I didnt have to listen to him during the offseason saying things like "I am going to be someone people fear on defense" and "My new nickname is Sun Tzu". His pathetic efforts in the 2010 playoffs while saying quotes like "It was me vs Kobe out there" was the last straw for me.
JustWinBaby
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http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/10170/melo-its-on-me-to-get-amare-involved
I guess I am not the only one sticking up for Amare. Chandler is gently calling out Melo. Get Amare more Shots.
The fans were booing him pretty good until he made enough shots for them to lose in DBL overtime.
The arrogant SOB Melo is suggesting that he will have a meeting with Amare.
This is what would get me upset with D'Antonni. He is the one that should be having the come to Jesus with Melo. Of course Melo is the bosses pet. I still would call out Melo.
Before Melo and no Nash 50% and 25. After Melo 41% and 18. Who is the problem?
I guess I am not the only one sticking up for Amare. Chandler is gently calling out Melo. Get Amare more Shots.
The fans were booing him pretty good until he made enough shots for them to lose in DBL overtime.
The arrogant SOB Melo is suggesting that he will have a meeting with Amare.
This is what would get me upset with D'Antonni. He is the one that should be having the come to Jesus with Melo. Of course Melo is the bosses pet. I still would call out Melo.
Before Melo and no Nash 50% and 25. After Melo 41% and 18. Who is the problem?
JustWinBaby
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This is what I really do not understand.
What player did D'Antonni not play that went elsewhere and excelled or is still playing in the league?
I really do not know whom these players might be. But he still gets called out for not playing and developing his bench. He basically had no bench and the rest of the league agreed. They haven't hired any of those guys that he didn't play.
The players he did play are all still playing and generally playing a major role at their current address.
The idea that the GM should dictate how he should coach the team is laughable. There surely should be open dialogue but not demands.
When D'Antonni did not agree to hire the Defensive coordinator that was suggested, why wasn't he fired on the spot.
That would have cost Sarver money. Bob was willing to suffer through another horrible season with D'Antonni at the reins rather than fire him.
D'Antonni was uncomfortable and found another job. It happens a lot.
Steve and Bob hired Terry Porter, great move. They quickly fired Porter and hired a D'Antonni clone, Gentry.
Amare's real growth problems can be directly related to his injuries. He spent far too much time rehabbing than working on his game. The one thing that can be said though is that he was and is quite possibly the best conditioned athlete on the planet. That takes work and dedication.
Some players can play defense others cannot. Amare is surely not great but not as bad as most would suggest, JMO.
He actually played very good defense against the Nuggets the other night while rebounding well and getting his hands on a lot of balls. Unfortunately he does not do that every night.
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Phrazbit
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Dantoni didnt use his bench period, it didnt matter who he had or didnt have. He would go through spells where Barbosa was getting "DNP coaches decision". He grinds his starters into the ground. Before Gentry took over we thought we had no depth, then suddenly in 2010 we realized some of these guys can play. I am not expecting guys to be huge playing 10-15 or 20 minutes, but Dantoni does not use or develop his bench or have consistent rotations. He would go through spells of not even using Kurt Thomas.
He didnt develop young players. And even admittedly did not want them on his roster. Dumb dumb moves like trading away Rondo and then signing Marcus Banks because Dantoni did not want a rookie PG has really really damaged this team. And that was an ALL Mike D'Antoni move. He was the GM at the time.
I dont blame Mike for leaving, thats not why I mock him or the Knicks. I mock him for not learning from his mistakes and his stubbornness. And Mike didnt leave because he was "uncomfortable", he got offered a boat load of money by New York and the Suns had felt the D'Antoni era had run its course. I cant blame either side. But when would they have fired him? You say the suffered through one more season, that implies they should have fired him after 06-07 when the Suns nearly beat San Antonio?
The only logical time for him to leave was when he did infact head off.
And Amare could have learned to play defense, he could rebound. This isnt about development, its about desire and putting your money where your mouth is. Amare thinks claiming he will be a great defensive player and then making a flash block here and there gets the job done, but he spends the majority of the game letting guys like Tyler Hansburough light him up.
You said he played good defense against the Nuggets. Maybe at first glance, I watched that game too. He makes some good defensive PLAYS that stand out, but he misses almost every rotation, he does not box out, he does not close out. The Nuggets forwards had monster nights both scoring and on the glass. Amare makes a nice hustle block here and there but it doesnt make up for the 20 points he is surrendering on basic defensive situations. And if he has not learned to close out or switch at this point in his career then its not on any coach, its on him for either being too stupid or too lazy to learn.
He didnt develop young players. And even admittedly did not want them on his roster. Dumb dumb moves like trading away Rondo and then signing Marcus Banks because Dantoni did not want a rookie PG has really really damaged this team. And that was an ALL Mike D'Antoni move. He was the GM at the time.
I dont blame Mike for leaving, thats not why I mock him or the Knicks. I mock him for not learning from his mistakes and his stubbornness. And Mike didnt leave because he was "uncomfortable", he got offered a boat load of money by New York and the Suns had felt the D'Antoni era had run its course. I cant blame either side. But when would they have fired him? You say the suffered through one more season, that implies they should have fired him after 06-07 when the Suns nearly beat San Antonio?
The only logical time for him to leave was when he did infact head off.
And Amare could have learned to play defense, he could rebound. This isnt about development, its about desire and putting your money where your mouth is. Amare thinks claiming he will be a great defensive player and then making a flash block here and there gets the job done, but he spends the majority of the game letting guys like Tyler Hansburough light him up.
You said he played good defense against the Nuggets. Maybe at first glance, I watched that game too. He makes some good defensive PLAYS that stand out, but he misses almost every rotation, he does not box out, he does not close out. The Nuggets forwards had monster nights both scoring and on the glass. Amare makes a nice hustle block here and there but it doesnt make up for the 20 points he is surrendering on basic defensive situations. And if he has not learned to close out or switch at this point in his career then its not on any coach, its on him for either being too stupid or too lazy to learn.
Just curious, which guys?
2007/08 bench: Barbosa (30mpg), Diaw (28mpg), Giricek (20mpg)
The rest: Banks, Tucker, Skinner, Marks, Piatkowski, Strawberry
2006/07 bench: Barbosa (33mpg), James Jones (18mpg), Kurt Thomas (18mpg)
The rest: Banks, Jalen Rose, Pat Burke, Piatkowski, Marks, Jumaine Jones
2005/06 bench: Barbosa (28mpg), Tim Thomas (24mpg), James Jones (24mpg), Jim Jackson (16mpg)
The rest: Brian Grant, Pat Burke, Dijon Thompson, Nikoloz Tskitishvili
2004/05 bench: Jim Jackson (25mpg), Jacobsen (19mpg), Barbosa (17mpg), Steven Hunter (14mpg)
The rest: Walter McCarty, Jake Voskuhl, Maciej Lampe, Bo Outlaw, Jackson Vroman, Paul Shirley
Which of the players who didn't get much playing time under D'Antoni should have or would have under Gentry?
JustWinBaby
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Thank you
Great recap, nice work.
He had no bench to play other than his "on" 7 starters. Which of those guys that he didn't play are on another team? Still have not heard those names.
That blame falls directly on the GM and owner not the Coach, doesn't it?
Rather than demanding that he get a defensive coordinator, a good GM would have discussed with Mike as to whom was available that he thought could help him on the defensive end. He also should have been suggesting whom was available as a back up PG so the 2nd unit could hold it's own with Nash on the bench. They would then come up with consensus choices and the GM should get on the phones.
That obviously never happened.
Mike never played any of the Stars outrageous minutes over the season. Nash 33 or so and Amare about 34 per night. Those are not huge minutes. One of his biggest critics was Barkley, who would have thrown a fit if he only got 34 minutes a night. He averaged over 37 minutes a night for his career. More than either Nash or Amare under Coach D.
That was another falsehood that Barkley tried to sell to everyone.
elindholm
edited for content
Kurt Thomas. As for the others, I agree with you.
I don't feel bad for D'Antoni. Sarver basically owes everything to D'Antoni and his brand of basketball is what forces us to stomach the sad mockery the Suns have become.
JustWinBaby
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He played him, just not enough.
He vitually never played KT and Amare together, it drove me nuts.
Coach D was certainly not perfect, but who is?
He did provide a platform that created enormously exciting basketball during his tenure as our head coach.
He deserves to be critiqued but certainly does not deserve the hateful and inaccurate statements thrown his way by many.
He definitely is not the only reason this group never won a Championship.
Phrazbit
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Time played stats for those guys are misleading, because virtually everyone on those lists got several "DNP coaches decision" during the course of the year... which makes it appear on paper that they played much more if all you look at are minutes averages.
For example... you list Jacobsen at 19 minutes per game... which would be a respectable number, except he only played in FORTY GAMES, virtually all of those games missed being "DNP", not injuries.
Jim Jackson you list in 2 years... and he played less than half the teams games in each of them.
James Jones was constantly being jerked in and out of the rotation during his tenure here.
You list Gordon Giricek as a 20 minute per game player... he played in a total of 22 games!
D'Antoni frequently used 7 man rotations, this is not something I am making up, you dont have to look farther than the box scores from those seasons to see it.
And between players like Banks, James Jones, Piatkowski, Brian Grant, Rose, Outlaw... the list is rather long of guys he could have found a decent and small role for on the bench. And why bring in more players when D'Antoni does not use them? Hell, he was the GM for a time and he still didnt bring in players to use. Even a guy like Banks who Mike hand picked and gave 25 million to (at the expense of having Rondo) ended up languishing on the bench after Mike gave him about 2 games to prove himself.
How anyone could claim Mike uses or develops a bench is beyond me. It requires some extreme revisionist history.
I just watched the entire game on Saturday. I agree that Carmelo is an incredible black hole and ball hog. Amare is not. He takes what is available to him.
I don't understand how my quote made you think I enjoy watching Amare struggle. Not true at all. He's just not the savior Knicks fans thought he might be. And the Anthony deal made it that much worse. Nash and Amare were so much better together. Too bad Amare wasn't willing to make that work. I don't blame him but he went for the guaranteed money.
That's probably because Casey was traded mid-season to New Orleans. Kind of hard to play a guy who's playing for another team. Jacobsen actually played in every single game for the Suns that year while he was on the team.
And that's probably because Jim Jackson was acquired mid-season for, you guessed it, Casey Jacobsen. And the following year he was traded mid-season to the Lakers.
Again, a mid-season pick up. He was signed in March. It sure doesn't seem like you followed the Suns back then.
James Jones did have a small role, and the others, well, they haven't exactly found any other team that gave them any minutes either. Rose and Piatkowski never played for another team. Banks was traded several times and never found any team willing to play him. Even players that did get minutes off the bench for the Suns didn't fair much better. Giricek never played for another team. Jacobsen was out of the league couple years after Phoenix.
mojorizen7
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Are you really just curious? I dont agree with that point either necessarily mind you,but now I'M just curious....that post you quoted was pretty spot on(and you know it is)....so after reading it you're just going to quote the 1% and question that?
Howabout disputing the other 99% ? 
Dont fall for this Phrazbit. Griff is just being a Suns apologist here.
JustWinBaby
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It is not necessarily you. There are others though, that post on the internet, that would like to see Amare blow out his knee for this season and future seasons. I think that is to justify Sarver's decision not to agree with meeting the Knicks offer, which they supported. Amare decided to take the guaranteed money. I would bet anyone with the same offer would have done the same thing.
"Too Bad Amare wasn't willing to make that work". That is your statement. What does that mean? I expect it means that you wish he would have taken the lesser offer, so do I. However I wouldn't have. I have never disagreed with the offer that Sarver presented. I would probably have done the same thing. He was and is an injury risk that is not insurable. However I do disagree with wanting Amare to go down with an injury and blaming Amare for leaving.
I never thought Amare was the savior here or would be in New York. He was an incredible pick and roll partner with Nash that won a butt load of games. He was a very good team player in New York, prior to Melo, that provided wins and excitement for long suffering Knick fans.
There is talk that the Knicks are working on a trade with the Magic. Howard and Turkoglu for Chandler and Amare. At this point I would expect Amare would love to get away from Melo and get back to Florida. That would pair him back up with JRich and he would have 2 PG's that pass the ball in Nelson and Duhon to distribute the ball rather than watching Melo go ISO all night. He would also have shooters to open the paint for Chandler and himself. I would make that trade if I am Orlando.
Quite frankly that trade could make the Magic the favorites to come out of the East. The Amare detractors would go nuts or go into hibernation if that would happen.
JCSunsfan
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Of course Amare took the more lucrative offer with guarantees. He knew the potential state of his knees. He would have been a fool not to take such a deal.
The point is that Sarver offered a fair deal for Amare and the Knicks seriously overpaid. That's just the way it is. Now Amare, the Knicks, and the Suns have to live with the consequences.
The point is that Sarver offered a fair deal for Amare and the Knicks seriously overpaid. That's just the way it is. Now Amare, the Knicks, and the Suns have to live with the consequences.
JustWinBaby
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I agree with that.
Phrazbit
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lol, you're still using samples from halves or quarters of a season to point to D'Antoni using his bench, but when you break it down by game he is using 7 man rotations.
You want to argue over the individual PT of one player or another, whatever, that will take too long to hash out. So lets deal with the direct question.
Do you honestly think D'Antoni used his bench properly? I dont care what guys did for other teams, there are plenty of bench guys all over the league who have their run for a team then pitter out of the league. Dantoni never even TRIED to make players useful off his bench. And sure, you can try to blame the talent, but then you're also blaming Mike again, because he had major influence over roster moves and was even the GM for a time.
And again, we are arguing over one of the MANY factors that made Mike frustrating. I appreciate what he did for the Suns in bringing in his system, but it does not mean he did not have major flaws. The biggest being his aversion to developing young players... leading to picks being dumped so the team could use that money on a vet... who Mike would proceed to not play. His refusal to work on defense, his infamous doghouse, and him simply getting out coached over the course of 7 game series on a regular basis.
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elindholm
edited for content
D'Antoni did try to use his bench, but they weren't up to the task. His "system" required each player to have a particularly high skill level. A coach like Popovic, Jackson, or Karl is better able to design his system around the talent that he has. D'Antoni has never been able to do that.
Whether the Suns' short bench represented the failure of D'Antoni the coach or D'Antoni the GM is an open question. But, given the players that wound up on the roster, and given what D'Antoni needed them to be able to do, he was correct not to use them any more than he did. With the exception of Kurt Thomas.
D'Antoni got out-coached in the playoffs because his "system" wasn't (and isn't) adaptable to the specifics of his personnel or the strengths and weaknesses of the opponent. He knows only one strategy, and if it doesn't work, he has no more cards to play. In practically every interview he had when the team was struggling, he would say, "We just have to run more and make shots." That represented the extent of his strategic vision.
Phrazbit
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Fair enough, I can agree with this. Although there were some players who should have been used more, like James Jones who got jerked all over the place for PT, energy guys like Bo Outlaw you'd THINK could have found a role, but I could see that either way. But, I agree with your point.
However, that still leaves the onus for the bench situation on either Mike the coach or Mike the GM. So, either way, he was a major part of the problem.
Agreed 100% percent. Earlier I mentioned his stubbornness and total inability to adjust. We are seeing it right now with the Knicks. A roster not made for his system and he has no clue how to use it.
Which all goes back to "they are who we thought they were" when asked the question of why some are getting a kick out of the Knicks failures.
JustWinBaby
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Some people cannot be convinced even when presented with the facts.
I am now totally convinced that Mike is the sole problem that New York has. That roster is stellar. He is playing 9 or 10 guys on most nights tring to find 7 or 8 that can play. If he would play 12 guys everything would be just fine.
I am now totally convinced that Mike is the sole problem that New York has. That roster is stellar. He is playing 9 or 10 guys on most nights tring to find 7 or 8 that can play. If he would play 12 guys everything would be just fine.
Because we've been through this over and over in the past and it's getting pointless rehashing the same old arguments. The only reason I responded to that one line is because Phrazbit implied that Gentry somehow unearthed some talented players that D'Antoni's overlooked, but that is simply not true. The only four players that were still on the roster from D'Antoni's years when Gentry took over were Nash, Stoudemire, Hill and Barbosa while many of the bench players that D'Antoni had to work with were already out of the league. Show me one player who was buried on D'Antoni's bench that went on to play a significant role for another team later.Are you really just curious? I dont agree with that point either necessarily mind you,but now I'M just curious....that post you quoted was pretty spot on(and you know it is)....so after reading it you're just going to quote the 1% and question that?
The other popular argument is that he didn't develop young players. So who did he fail to develop? Jacobsen? Strawberry? Tucker? These weren't NBA-caliber players.
And then there's the Rondo/Banks fiasco. But let's remember that had the Suns kept that pick, they likely would not have selected Rondo (recently it was suggested the Suns would have drafted Shannon Brown instead). That's on the scouting department as well. The reason the Suns signed Banks instead was because the mandate was to win now not later, so the reasoning was that a more experienced player like Banks would help more than a rookie in a title pursuit. And while Banks failed miserably (as did every other backup to Nash) Rondo didn't do much in his rookie season either, playing for a lottery team.
But I ask, why didn't the Suns do both like any other team would? Why didn't the Suns draft someone to use as trade asset or potential piece for the future and then sign a veteran player to help immediately? It was simply cheaper not to. Sarver wasn't going to pay for players who weren't likely going to contribute right away like rookies. In NY D'Antoni has given his young players plenty of playing time. What's the difference? You have young players who can actually play, an owner that doesn't mind drafting players and still signing veteran free agents, and no pressure to win a title immediately, although that last one may change soon.
You are missing my point. I have never argued that our rotation was anything more than 7 or 8 deep on any given night. My argument was that players who were good enough to play played. Players who weren't, didn't. Playing players that don't belong in the NBA just so you can have a deep rotation doesn't help you win games, and in those years the Suns were chasing a championship. A lottery team perhaps could afford to experiment more with the lineup, but for the Suns there was a lot less room for error.
I believe that had D'Antoni played guys like Pat Burke, Jalen Rose, Eric Piatkowski, Brian Grant or Bo Outlaw more then the Suns would have lost a lot more games. These players were all either marginal NBA-level talent, or already on their way out. There are certain things that he could have done better such as playing Kurt Thomas more like Eric pointed out. But that would hardly make the team deeper than 7 or 8. Going deeper than that would mean winning fewer games, imo, given the talent level of the remaining players. The fact that none of our deep bench guys ever played a significant role for another team afterwards is evidence that they just weren't worthy of playing time. Otherwise, you would expect at least a few of them to be useful to another team at some point. And as Eric also said, D'Antoni did try to play those players. I remember stretches where guys like Outlaw, Banks and even Rose were part of the rotation. The reason they fell out of rotation is because they couldn't really play.
Also, I never argued that D'Antoni was a good GM. So why didn't Sarver hire a real GM right away? What possible (financial) advantage to the owner could there be from having one person fill two positions?
Of course he had flaws, who doesn't? No one is arguing the guy was a saint. But he gets blamed for things that really were the fault of many people involved. For example, why did the Suns have to sell picks in order to sign vets? Why couldn't they have done both like every other team does? What coach or GM would ever say "go ahead and sell that pick, we don't need that asset, we'd rather have cash"? The Suns were the only team selling picks in order to generate the funds to pay other players' salaries. Sarver was essentially mortgaging the team's future in order to try to win a title as cheaply as possible. He failed. Now we are left with the remnants of that failed experiment.
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