are we getting left behind?

[playstation]

i'm reading all this news over the last week and i can't help but think the Suns are no longer in contention. we were not good enough to beat the spurs last year, and inexplicably, we took a step BACKWARD this offseason.

I don't really know what else to say about it. Amare is a god, yes, but even that doesn't get you past the spurs, who have their own god. so the question is, at this point, do we have ANY chance of winning a title this year?

Apparently, the suns can't recruit anymore on top of that. despite having the supposed FA lander Steve Nash+great weather+awesome young team (which i guess is no longer), we watch while others get guys like abdur-rahim, antoine walker, jason williams, stro swift, and derek anderson for seemingly nothing. i mean, look at what the heat did with like NO ASSETS! i don't know, i'm just really frustrated right now.

 

[Evil Ash]

1) The offseason isn't done yet. So don't push the panic button just yet

2) We don't know how well this team will play together. Lets do something crazy like let them play a regular season ... hell even a preseason game before we say this team took a step backward. Remember how highly people thought of this team last year (including those on this board)? Here's a hint we were talking mostly about making the playoffs rather than getting far into them

3) You are massively overrating the talent we didn't get according to your list and underrating those that we have gotten in return.

 

[JS22]

i'm reading all this news over the last week and i can't help but think the Suns are no longer in contention. we were not good enough to beat the spurs last year, and inexplicably, we took a step BACKWARD this offseason.

I don't really know what else to say about it. Amare is a god, yes, but even that doesn't get you past the spurs, who have their own god. so the question is, at this point, do we have ANY chance of winning a title this year?

Apparently, the suns can't recruit anymore on top of that. despite having the supposed FA lander Steve Nash+great weather+awesome young team (which i guess is no longer), we watch while others get guys like abdur-rahim, antoine walker, jason williams, stro swift, and derek anderson for seemingly nothing. i mean, look at what the heat did with like NO ASSETS! i don't know, i'm just really frustrated right now.

Uhm, J-Will and Walker?

NO THANKS.

 

[playstation]

1) The offseason isn't done yet. So don't push the panic button just yet

2) We don't know how well this team will play together. Lets do something crazy like let them play a regular season ... hell even a preseason game before we say this team took a step backward. Remember how highly people thought of this team last year (including those on this board)? Here's a hint we were talking mostly about making the playoffs rather than getting far into them

3) You are massively overrating the talent we didn't get according to your list and underrating those that we have gotten in return.

1-how long would you like me to wait? my comment was that TO DATE, we are getting left behind. to me, saying otherwise is homerific. hell, even the management says this.

2-are you seriously saying that you like what's happened so far? look, the suns will be good next year, and they'll win preseason games. if that makes you happy, congratulations. i thought there was another prize to be had.

3-look, the talent we didn't get was gotten by other teams for next to nothing. our FA signing was one that was rated one of the worst this FA season by john hollinger. again, telling me raja bell is a cure all is to me, homerific.

in conclusion, i admire your heart for trying to make me feel better...do a better job next time

 

[Dustbuster]

1) The offseason isn't done yet. So don't push the panic button just yet

2) We don't know how well this team will play together. Lets do something crazy like let them play a regular season ... hell even a preseason game before we say this team took a step backward. Remember how highly people thought of this team last year (including those on this board)? Here's a hint we were talking mostly about making the playoffs rather than getting far into them

3) You are massively overrating the talent we didn't get according to your list and underrating those that we have gotten in return.

Like whom? Padgett? Burke? Tischer? Thompson? Diaw?

KT and Bell were one thing, but what exactly have done of worth since the very first day of FA signing? And in no way do I consider JJ for Bell a good trade.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

4. If it doesn't work out blame the coach!

 

[Evil Ash]

Geez like everywhere else in sports it seems that fans are obsessed with players that are somewhat of the big names. The thing is we don't need big names, we don't need anymore superstars (would it be nice to have one if they knew their role and were content? Sure but thats not likely).

This team already has the big 3 in place to be our superstars what we need are role players to fill out the roster. I mean how many big names does SA (you know the reigning world champions? eh but why model our franchise after them? ) have?

Its not just a matter of getting role players. Its a matter of getting the role players that fill out the weaknesses that the team had the previous year. In our case it would be those that rebound, play defense, and just the sake of adding depth. For some reason people on here felt that if we kept everything as it was, we would have done a helluva lot better than last year ... fact is that just wouldn't have happened.

 

[Bada0Bing]

Apparently, the suns can't recruit anymore on top of that. despite having the supposed FA lander Steve Nash+great weather+awesome young team (which i guess is no longer), we watch while others get guys like abdur-rahim, antoine walker, jason williams, stro swift, and derek anderson for seemingly nothing. i mean, look at what the heat did with like NO ASSETS! i don't know, i'm just really frustrated right now.

Man, these guys are not difference makers or role players (maybe SAR, not sure yet). They may put up decent stats, but I can't see them playing a significant role on a championship caliber team.

 

[playstation]

i'm glad this is what you think, and i think we need fans like you. however, i think we've taken a step back. you mention defense. well, if i woke up and noticed larry brown was coaching our team, i'd say we'd have gotten better there, but that hasn't happened.

you think cause KT and bell are there, coach is going to become a defensive schemer? this team doesn't play defense. and it starts at the top. that's fine, then lets play to our strengths. but now we don't do that either.

we are in this sort of purgatory that we were in 7 or 8 years ago. good enough for a 3-6 seed, not enough for championship.*

*all this is assuming amare doesn't become the greatest player of all time. if that happens...well...robert sarver will laugh all the way to the bank every year

 

[playstation]

Man, these guys are not difference makers or role players (maybe SAR, not sure yet). They may put up decent stats, but I can't see them playing a significant role on a championship caliber team.

are you kidding me? you don't think walker, williams, rahim, donny marshall, pachulia, chris anderson and the like could be GREAT role players on our team? we missed out on a lot here, there's just no sugarcoating it.

now watch as finley goes and signs with miami and we *maybe* get brian grant. to date, we've struck out, and the shopping market is now chock full of leftovers. bon apetite.

 

[Bada0Bing]

are you kidding me? you don't think walker, williams, rahim, donny marshall, pachulia, chris anderson and the like could be GREAT role players on our team? we missed out on a lot here, there's just no sugarcoating it.

Nope. (I said that I wasn't sure on SAR) I haven't seen any of these guys do squat in the playoffs. They load their stats in meaningless games.

 

[myrondizzo]

are you kidding me? you don't think walker, williams, rahim, donny marshall, pachulia, chris anderson and the like could be GREAT role players on our team? we missed out on a lot here, there's just no sugarcoating it. now watch as finley goes and signs with miami and we *maybe* get brian grant. to date, we've struck out, and the shopping market is now chock full of leftovers. bon apetite.

what were we going to pay these guys with. we didnt even have 2mil a year to give to hunter. we might have taken 1 step back but i think we have also taken at least 1 step forward. we lost in the playoffs due to defense. so we added both perimeter defense and interior toughness.
bell is going to have a career year behind the arc due to the nash factor and i think they will be better suited for the playoffs. i know i havent watched bell play but i remember people being very upset about the nash signing last year saying we over piad him and we didnt get kobe or Imac we werent even picked to make the playoffs thats why i want to see this team play together before i start getting upset about what they "could" of had.

 

[Billythekid]

we lost in the playoffs due to defense. so we added both perimeter defense and interior toughness.

The thing is, what we lacked last season was defense, we've sort of gained a bit of that, but what we were so good at, offence, we've taken a HUGE hit in.

IMO, we're not adding defense to last years squad, because last years squad no longer exists.

This is a totally new make up of team.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Is the sky really falling?

This team went to the WC finals last year

WITHOUT Joe Johnson
WITH Q, playing like crap
WITH Steven Hunter, hardly playing any minutes at all. Those are the only players of consequence that we've not brought back this off-season and they were not big contributors in the post-season.

We are adding,

Kurt Thomas
Raja Bell
Scott Padgett
Diaw

and more, I guarantee you we're not done yet.

Plus, we've got cap flexibility for the future, two first round draft picks, a couple of trade exceptions.

BTW, my prediction. Someone on the Suns (Bell) will win the most improved player award this next year.

And, oh yeah, we've got this kid names AMARE.

 

[PhxGametime]

IMO the team has taken a hit in a lot of areas... we lost 5.1 3PTers in starting line-up. Hunter could be a better defender than KT and JJ is a better defender/rebounder/passer/scorer/ballhandler/athlete, etc. than Bell... we add rebounding but KT was 1 big on a small team, so he had a career year.

The team adds a big that can pick and pop but I seriously doubt Bell is going to be putting up 2.2 3PTers at 48% and teams are likely going to pack it in and let KT beat them from outside and he can shoot well but can't drive much... Bell appears to be more of a perimeter shooter than a pure 3PT shooter but I think having a 3PT bomb specialist really helped the team.

Saying that - I do like KT and Bell but KT adds more offense and rebounding but I doubt after watching film, that I'd call him a better defender. Bell is a pretty tough defender but I like JJ's size and athleticism in most match-ups other than the smaller, shorter offensive players (Manu possibly but I have a feeling Manu doesn't like playing against him because well he fouls and fouls hard and is a tough guy) not a shut down defender...

Neither player is exactly exciting either, they're more like East Coast old skool Knicks defenders with decent overall game... I do like Boris Diaw but he's unwilling to score right now and I have him as a full time PG, splitting time with Barbosa until he starts hitting jumpshots (he's not that bad and 1 summer could REALLY help there) but to play alongside Nash, he's likely needed to hit a jumpshot. He's actually the guy, I'm most excited about but Bell and KT could REALLY help but everybody knows the team will take a hit losing JJ... and Diaw has more upside, more than anybody added...

KT and Bell are role players that 1. could have a big impact with giving the team toughness 2. or not fit in because they're not exactly athletes, that fit last years team.


I have yet to watch Padgett but I am excited to see him on team, although not likely to make as big impact as KT and Bell but IMO Padgett and Diaw fit into more of what the team was looking like last year... I think the Suns are gambling that 2 tough role players are going to change team that much. Pistons, Spurs are filled with those type of players - I would've preferred to get athletes than can defend and maybe shoot but you never know. I did think the Suns would go 78-4 last year before season and I liked how that team was built... this team is not really one I'd build but I do know that a lot of fans were looking for toughness - while I'd prefer the Swift's, Dalembert's, Ratliff's, of the League.

 

[George O'Brien]

I haven't seen KT that often, but he has a reputation as a solid defender and a very good rebounder (4th in defensive rebounds in the NBA). I've watched Hunter a lot and his defense is very inconsistent. A few good games does not alter the fact that he was not strong enough to keep guys from backing him down into the paint, that his attempts to block every shot meant he was constantly out of position, that he did not rotate effectively, nor did he do much to stop guys driving the paint. Unlike KT, Hunter was a below average rebounder (.22 per minute).

Hunter's only real advantage was when defending really long guys like Garnett, but overall I did not find him to be that good defending the low post. KT may not be a "great" defender, but I think he will be a lot better defending the low post than Hunter.
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If we compare Bell to Q, I think the upgrade is dramatic. Bell is vastly better defender, shoots a much higher percentage from the field, is a better ball handler, and is much much faster. Q rebounded better, but was playing forward and Bell was at guard. I don't think I'm the only one that thinks this is a huge upgrade.
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Will the Suns get Finley? I'm optimistic. He's not nearly as good as JJ, but he's a proven three point shooter who fits well with Nash and what the Suns do. Playing with Nash and Amare could boost some pretty good stats from a season he was limited by injuries:

Michael Finley
Dallas Mavericks
Position: G-F
Height: 6-7 Weight: 225
College : Wisconsin '95
Player file | Team stats

2004-05 Statistics
PPG 15.7
RPG 4.1
APG 2.6
SPG .75
BPG .28
FG% .427
FT% .831
3P% .407
MPG 36.8

 

[Billythekid]

Is the sky really falling?

This team went to the WC finals last year

WITHOUT Joe Johnson
WITH Q, playing like crap
WITH Steven Hunter, hardly playing any minutes at all. Those are the only players of consequence that we've not brought back this off-season and they were not big contributors in the post-season.

We are adding,

Kurt Thomas
Raja Bell
Scott Padgett
Diaw

Your acting like none of those guys who we've lost made contributions.
We've lost ALOT more then we've added.

And,

Raja Bellm is being severly overrated. He's a decent journey man at best, who with good teams didn't do a heck of a lot. Only on a terrible Utah team with NO backcourt to speak off did he put up 11ppg. - (AK, Harpring are SF's)

And i hear we're going after Brian Grant, great, another guy who goes completely against what we've been doing here.

Atleast if we get him, we'll always have someone back on D, as Grant and KT will be too slow to make it up on offense. Oh but now Q won't be jacking up 3 pointers with 23 seconds left on the shotclock... my bad, so maybe they'll make it in time.

Man this offseason has f**kn sucked!

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Some of you guys just dont get it.....Bell and KT were added to SUPPLEMENT the core of the team that got to WCF last year. So you want to ADD to the team that lost in five games, not regress. This is not necessairly the suns fault, as JJ must have spent to much time with steph in their brief one and a two and a half seasons together, but we have def. regressed. And really we as Suns fans are the ones who got screwed.

The only hope i have is if Amare, like PS said, becomes Tim Duncan and then we might have enough w/ Nash and Marion being the second and third options. But to those of you who want to "wait and see" you will be squawking when we win fifty games in the regular season and will be no where to be found when we get knocked out in the second round of the playoffs. We have undoubtdtly regressed. and its sad...

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I also like the potential of Diaw as i think TWO OR THREE seasons from now he could develop similar to JJ. But he will be of little help next year.

And if one more person says "we got to the WCF w/o Joe".... .we played 5 games w/o him and had to have Nash turn into Michael Jordan to struggle to beat a heartless Nowitzki and his band of merry men. So no we really did'nt do anything w/o Joe. Oh except lose in five to the Spurs

 

[Joe Mama]

Some of you guys just dont get it.....Bell and KT were added to SUPPLEMENT the core of the team that got to WCF last year. So you want to ADD to the team that lost in five games, not regress. This is not necessairly the suns fault, as JJ must have spent to much time with steph in their brief one and a two and a half seasons together, but we have def. regressed. And really we as Suns fans are the ones who got screwed.

The only hope i have is if Amare, like PS said, becomes Tim Duncan and then we might have enough w/ Nash and Marion being the second and third options. But to those of you who want to "wait and see" you will be squawking when we win fifty games in the regular season and will be no where to be found when we get knocked out in the second round of the playoffs. We have undoubtdtly regressed. and its sad...

I'm not crazy. While I don't think this summer has been as disastrous as some do I definitely acknowledge that things could have gone better. the loss of Q doesn't bother me at all. I would trade him for Kurt Thomas again today even knowing that JJ would be gone. It's the loss of JJ that scares me.

The Suns must realize that they need to make a few more moves to improve the team before the season starts. If not I'm sure they'll look to improve through a trade or trades during the season. I doubt they'll go into the playoffs with this current roster unless they just surprise everyone including myself.

Here's a something to look at him though.

Against Dallas and the first two games against San Antonio the Phoenix Suns had the following starting five.

Steve Nash
Amare Stoudemire
Shawn Marion
Jimmy Jackson
Q

Bench: Hunter, a little Barbosa

During that stretch Q did not play well. I certainly think it's fair to say that Bell could have at least provided as much as Q, especially when you factor in defense.

This season we have the following if we were to go small again (we won't start this way, but I think it's good for comparison).

Steve Nash
Amare Stoudemire
Shawn Marion
Jimmy Jackson
Raja Bell

Bench: Kurt Thomas, Diaw, Padgett, and a little Barbosa

Again, if I honestly thought the Phoenix Suns would go into the playoffs with the above roster I would definitely be concerned. I would not consider them a serious title contender. I do believe they'll make some more improvements though. Unlike some of you I just don't think those improvements need to be anything drastic.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

And you guys are STILL blaming the Suns for the JJ loss. To me, that's the whole basis for all the complaining about how we're a "worse team than last year". If Sarver really was going to match, then what's the problem? He was willing to pay JJ the big money--yet JJ STILL wants to go to Atlanta.

Personally, the JJ loss hurts a little bit, but he is a shooting guard/swingman, easily replaced in today's NBA. We don't need a superstar in the position--Joe himself was FAR from that distinction last year. Bell will put up better statistics than he did last year, but as many of you say, his 3 point percentage probably won't be as high as Joe's. And while we'll miss that, I think many of you are making a much bigger deal of it than you need to. While we took the most 3 pointers in the league, I believe our percentage wasn't very good. Do I wish we had a 48% 3-point shooter on the team? Of course. Am I writing off the season because now we only have a 40% 3-point shooter? Not at all. Taken game-by-game, that's like only 1 or 2 more misses than Joe Johnson.

 

[Dustbuster]

Personally, the JJ loss hurts a little bit, but he is a shooting guard/swingman, easily replaced in today's NBA.

I've heard this quite a few times, and it seems like an extraordinarily simplistic, near naive (no offense) statement. Tell me exactly who you easily replace him with. Not a platoon of players, but a player. A player who can play multiple positions, is built like a power forward but plays like a guard, that can create his own shot and play spot minutes as a back-up PG, shoots one of the highest percentages in the league at his position, shoots the second highest percentage in the league from 3 point land while taking a large number of said shots, who rebounds well, defends well, handles well, and distributes well, and who can play almost every minute of every game without fatigue or injury.

CBSSportsline's ranking system had him ranked as the fifth best SG in the league both in regular season and in the playoffs. The only reason that he was rated even that low in the playoffs is because they weight games missed for injury. In the regular season, only Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kobe Bryant, and Michael Redd were ranked above him (and Redd only by a few minute percentage points).

I just completely disagree with the statement that a player "like" JJ is a dime-a-dozen, easiest to replace, etc... Perhaps as a general statement about a SG this is true, but as a literal player, there are only a handful of players in the leauge that could actually step in and replace what JJ does, and while they might exhibit other areas of greater strength, they would also have areas that they could not perform as well as JJ in our system.

 

[Dustbuster]

BTW, JJ was ranked #19 overall in the league by their ranking system in the regular season, and #21 overall in the playoffs.

Whether or not a person likes his particular game, it must be honestly admitted that replacing JJ is not going to be an easy task. And I actually expect both his play and his numbers to only improve from this point. He just turned 24 and has only gotten his act consistently together for the last year and half. He's developing still, for crying out loud, which is why even a player like Finley is only a stopgap measure by comparison.

 

[Chaplin]

I've heard this quite a few times, and it seems like an extraordinarily simplistic, near naive (no offense) statement. Tell me exactly who you easily replace him with. Not a platoon of players, but a player. A player who can play multiple positions, is built like a power forward but plays like a guard, that can create his own shot and play spot minutes as a back-up PG, shoots one of the highest percentages in the league at his position, shoots the second highest percentage in the league from 3 point land while taking a large number of said shots, who rebounds well, defends well, handles well, and distributes well, and who can play almost every minute of every game without fatigue or injury.

CBSSportsline's ranking system had him ranked as the fifth best SG in the league both in regular season and in the playoffs. The only reason that he was rated even that low in the playoffs is because they weight games missed for injury. In the regular season, only Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kobe Bryant, and Michael Redd were ranked above him (and Redd only by a few minute percentage points).

I just completely disagree with the statement that a player "like" JJ is a dime-a-dozen, easiest to replace, etc... Perhaps as a general statement about a SG this is true, but as a literal player, there are only a handful of players in the leauge that could actually step in and replace what JJ does, and while they might exhibit other areas of greater strength, they would also have areas that they could not perform as well as JJ in our system.

Why do you feel you need to replace him with a single player? You and many others like you continually make Joe Johnson out to be a superstar, when in reality, he isn't even an All-Star! He was good--and he was pretty good for ONE year, but he in no way deserves the contract he received, and the Suns don't deserve having to be hamstrung by said contract after next year.

Look at Bell, for example. What else can JJ do that he can't? Ok. JJ shoots a higher 3-point percentage. Great. See the above post regarding that. He can run the offense in spot duty. Great. So can Jimmy Jackson and it looks like Diaw might have that capability also.

So what exactly is irreplacable about him? One player does everything well for 70 million over 5 years. Or, you can have 2 or 3 different players that DO THE SAME THING come out to 50 million total over 5 years. What's better?

 

[Chaplin]

BTW, JJ was ranked #19 overall in the league by their ranking system in the regular season, and #21 overall in the playoffs.

Whether or not a person likes his particular game, it must be honestly admitted that replacing JJ is not going to be an easy task. And I actually expect both his play and his numbers to only improve from this point. He just turned 24 and has only gotten his act consistently together for the last year and half. He's developing still, for crying out loud, which is why even a player like Finley is only a stopgap measure by comparison.

Come on now, this is just run-of-the-mill crying. Nobody is saying JJ won't improve. But you're not looking at the big picture.