ARI@DEN: Heroes and Goats

[b8rtm8nn]

Dude - I don't know how Minter isn't on here as a goat. They finally brought him in the fourth quarter, and he looked just as slow as everyone else, except he wasn't tired - that is his playing speed.

I really think Buchanon will be a stud and when we get a decent ILB, he will shift to the backfield. Right now - we have three decent safeties ahead of him, one of those likely will be gone next year - so the use of him as a LB is a great plan. If Johnson or Jefferson goes down, he can shift to the backfield and we can..uh...play anyone but Minter at ILB.

 

[kerouac9]

Dude - I don't know how Minter isn't on here as a goat. They finally brought him in the fourth quarter, and he looked just as slow as everyone else, except he wasn't tired - that is his playing speed.

I really think Buchanon will be a stud and when we get a decent ILB, he will shift to the backfield. Right now - we have three decent safeties ahead of him, one of those likely will be gone next year - so the use of him as a LB is a great plan. If Johnson or Jefferson goes down, he can shift to the backfield and we can..uh...play anyone but Minter at ILB.

Basically, he didn't play enough for me to really justify that. I think that my feelings on Kevin Minter have been made pretty clear, and the silence from those who insisted that he was going to be good and was only not on the field because of Dansby and Washington has been pretty damning today.

I feel like Smoke and Mirrors really had a worse day than Kevin Minter, when all was said and done.

 

[WildBB]

Definitely not enough pass pro adjustments this game. Just like Manning was going after Cromartie, Miller was abusing the right side of the line (Massie).

Isn't this why we went out and got the rookie TE Niklas, just for such occasions?!

Mathieu sighting few and far between as well. Is Jefferson tearing it up that much? Seems like he has coverage challenges as well.

 

[82CardsGrad]

On Bucannon: I don't think it's that challenging a transition for a strong safety to play coverage linebacker. I'm perfectly happy with the job that he's done, but I'm not pretending that his performance through the first four games of his rookie season tells me much about how he'll do if/when he's transitioned to a more complex role (and yes I believe that SS is a more complex role than the ILB role that he's being asked to perform).

Agree that SS is a more complex position than ILB. Still, I'm not going to discount his solid performance at a position for which he hadn't played before entering the NFL... Does it guarantee success should he eventually transition back to SS? Of course note... but, from what I have seen in terms of his performance and as it relates to the SS position, I'm very encouraged...

On Ellington: It's not just yesterday, although it was a particularly bad example. Ellington is averaging 3.8 yards per carry on the season. He's averaging 2.4 YPC on first down. In the second half he's averaging 3.6 YPC.

He averaged over 5 YPC last season, without a foot issue... I believe Ellington is a legit NFL RB. Not a guy who can pound the rock 20+ times a game over a 16 game season, but a guy who can definitely take 15 carries per game and average 4.5 or better... while ALWAYS possessing the threat to take it to the house anytime he touches the ball.
I don't believe we need a Frank Gore or Marshawn Lynch. We just need our o-line to finally come together.

 

[juza76]

if he wasnt for the drops and injuries the game could be won.
heroes i like what watford did ,fighting to get the ball after the fumble on punt return
about the goat i put cromartie ,demetrius thomas was just too fast for him.
we still have problems running the ball, i think is time for cooper to step up.
i dont know why keiser was inactive and okafor played just 10 snaps.
how many qb hit ?

 

[juza76]

goat.. Zastudil) is not the punter he was,the groin injury bothered him.
i think he should be put on Ir,Butler played very good,we cant waste a roster spot for an extra punter with the all injuriries we have

 

[kerouac9]

He averaged over 5 YPC last season, without a foot issue... I believe Ellington is a legit NFL RB. Not a guy who can pound the rock 20+ times a game over a 16 game season, but a guy who can definitely take 15 carries per game and average 4.5 or better... while ALWAYS possessing the threat to take it to the house anytime he touches the ball.
I don't believe we need a Frank Gore or Marshawn Lynch. We just need our o-line to finally come together.

Yes, 5 YPC, last season, when he wasn't being asked to make those carries on First-and-10 because Rashard Mendenhall was grinding out those yards.

My argument isn't that Ellington is a bad running back; that's a dumb argument. My argument is that Ellington might not be a starting-caliber running back, or a guy who can get 15 or more carries a game and be effective.

Want some evidence? Check out Ellington's splits from last year, when he wasn't suffering from a foot injury:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElliAn00/splits/2013/

In 8 games where Ellington was a situational back, he averaged 7.74 YPC on just 43 carries at the beginning of the year. That's fewer than 5 carries a game.

In 7 games in November and December, Ellington averaged 4.25 YPC on 75 carries. Still fairly above-average, but not Jamaal Charles.

 

[juza76]

Yes, 5 YPC, last season, when he wasn't being asked to make those carries on First-and-10 because Rashard Mendenhall was grinding out those yards.

My argument isn't that Ellington is a bad running back; that's a dumb argument. My argument is that Ellington might not be a starting-caliber running back, or a guy who can get 15 or more carries a game and be effective.

Want some evidence? Check out Ellington's splits from last year, when he wasn't suffering from a foot injury:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElliAn00/splits/2013/

In 8 games where Ellington was a situational back, he averaged 7.74 YPC on just 43 carries at the beginning of the year. That's fewer than 5 carries a game.

In 7 games in November and December, Ellington averaged 4.25 YPC on 75 carries. Still fairly above-average, but not Jamaal Charles.

i m agree on you about maybe is not a work horse running back , but kansas city had and still have a better offensive line

 

[Russ Smith]

Yes, 5 YPC, last season, when he wasn't being asked to make those carries on First-and-10 because Rashard Mendenhall was grinding out those yards.

My argument isn't that Ellington is a bad running back; that's a dumb argument. My argument is that Ellington might not be a starting-caliber running back, or a guy who can get 15 or more carries a game and be effective.

Want some evidence? Check out Ellington's splits from last year, when he wasn't suffering from a foot injury:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElliAn00/splits/2013/

In 8 games where Ellington was a situational back, he averaged 7.74 YPC on just 43 carries at the beginning of the year. That's fewer than 5 carries a game.

In 7 games in November and December, Ellington averaged 4.25 YPC on 75 carries. Still fairly above-average, but not Jamaal Charles.

100% true but even late in the year he only had 2 games where he didnt' average at least 4 YPC, Jax and SF. those were also the only 2 games he didn't have at least one run of 17 or more yards. He's a big play RB his average is built on a bunch of so so runs and then 1-2 big runs a game

The last 2 games have really been the issue he was averaging 5 YPC after 2 games, then 3.4 and 2.0 the last 2 weeks, against 2 good run defenses.

I don't disagree he's probably better off not always in on first down he's not a between the tackles kind of guy. But Arians likes to throw on first down it seems, so he likes having him in.

It's an age old problem he's so dangerous you don't want to NOT have him on the field, but you know that if you play him too much it's a diminishing returns thing.

 

[kerouac9]

i m agree on you about maybe is not a work horse running back , but kansas city had and still have a better offensive line

Kansas City has a terrible offensive line right now.

 

[juza76]

Kansas City has a terrible offensive line right now.

knile davis has 4,5 yards/att (325 yards in 5 games),charles 4,6(195 yards)
they are in the top 8 about running the ball

 

[kerouac9]

knile davis has 4,5 yards/att (325 yards in 5 games),charles 4,6(195 yards)
they are in the top 8 about running the ball

Jamaal Charles and Knile Davis are pretty good, and the Chiefs have been playing some pretty terrible run defenses.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

To me, John Brown's gaffes were the difference in the game. If he adjusts to the long ball and catches the ball right in his chest prior to halftime, it completely changes the game and 2nd half game plan.

You could tell the Cards were set on controlling the clock and that went out the window, not completely, when they got down double digits. Brown makes those 2 plays the Cards have a lead, and who knows, Stanton doesn't get drilled and they go on to victory.

We'll never know but Brown's a rookie so I'm not souring on him and losing to Denver in Denver is not a bad loss at all. In fact, I'll bet 95% of us had them losing this game when the schedule came out.

 

[kerouac9]

To me, John Brown's gaffes were the difference in the game.

Yeah. I'm surprised, too. John Brown had 7 targets in this game and ended up with 2 catches for 4 yards. It seemed pretty clear to me that the game plan was to use Brown to expose the Broncos' slower secondary, and Brown choked under the additional workload.

Didn't read the game thread; maybe people expended their energies on the issue there.

 

[Russ Smith]

To me, John Brown's gaffes were the difference in the game. If he adjusts to the long ball and catches the ball right in his chest prior to halftime, it completely changes the game and 2nd half game plan.

You could tell the Cards were set on controlling the clock and that went out the window, not completely, when they got down double digits. Brown makes those 2 plays the Cards have a lead, and who knows, Stanton doesn't get drilled and they go on to victory.

We'll never know but Brown's a rookie so I'm not souring on him and losing to Denver in Denver is not a bad loss at all. In fact, I'll bet 95% of us had them losing this game when the schedule came out.

The long one came before I had a good feed so hard to see but it was not a well thrown ball. is it catchable absolutely. The 2nd one was right there you gotta catch that and I agree it was huge.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The long one came before I had a good feed so hard to see but it was not a well thrown ball. is it catchable absolutely. The 2nd one was right there you gotta catch that and I agree it was huge.

i don't fault Brown for the long ball. that was a pretty bad pass and it would have been a pretty incredible catch to make it, but the second one was an absolute killer.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

i don't fault Brown for the long ball. that was a pretty bad pass and it would have been a pretty incredible catch to make it, but the second one was an absolute killer.

The long one came before I had a good feed so hard to see but it was not a well thrown ball. is it catchable absolutely. The 2nd one was right there you gotta catch that and I agree it was huge.

I don't think the long pass was all that bad and it's a catch Brown will likely make when he's more seasoned. Stanton threw the ball a little outside because the safety was coming on the inside. Brown never adjusted to the pass and continued his route as is. Once he reads defenses better, I think he would have widened his route a bit for an easy TD. It wasn't all that far off at is was.

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't think the long pass was all that bad and it's a catch Brown will likely make when he's more seasoned. Stanton threw the ball a little outside because the safety was coming on the inside. Brown never adjusted to the pass and continued his route as is. Once he reads defenses better, I think he would have widened his route a bit for an easy TD. It wasn't all that far off at is was.

I guess given Stanton's play to date I'm skeptical the ball ended up to the right because he was keeping it away from the safety. My guess is he simply missed, remember they were talking about wind etc in the stadium.


But again I had a terrible feed at that point in the game. It was a catchable ball, we see great catches every week on poorly thrown balls.

I don't think Stanton throws a good deep ball, my guess is Floyd or Fitz pull that in, except both would not have been where Brown was since he's faster.

 

[MrYeahBut]

I feel like Smoke and Mirrors really had a worse day than Kevin Minter, when all was said and done.

Is smoke and mirrors a certain player or a reference to the way the team has been winning?

.

 

[Darkside]

Yes, 5 YPC, last season, when he wasn't being asked to make those carries on First-and-10 because Rashard Mendenhall was grinding out those yards.

My argument isn't that Ellington is a bad running back; that's a dumb argument. My argument is that Ellington might not be a starting-caliber running back, or a guy who can get 15 or more carries a game and be effective.

Want some evidence? Check out Ellington's splits from last year, when he wasn't suffering from a foot injury:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElliAn00/splits/2013/

In 8 games where Ellington was a situational back, he averaged 7.74 YPC on just 43 carries at the beginning of the year. That's fewer than 5 carries a game.

In 7 games in November and December, Ellington averaged 4.25 YPC on 75 carries. Still fairly above-average, but not Jamaal Charles.

I think Ellington is an every down back and a starting back. I think his injury is limiting him, not to make excuses but it just is--he had a couple breakaways already that he couldn't do that he would have made last year.

Also, frankly, Charles gets chunk yardage on screens and they work a lot on misdirection in KC. To my knowledge we haven't thrown a single screen to Ellington and we have no misdirection game. The best we ever could hope for in this offense is Cooper, at his best, pulling across the line for Duke along the right side. That can't happen though because Coop is sucking.

So Ellington is relegated to running between the tackles or off tackle. We don't even do much to get him in space. Given that, I think he's actually been badass.

He's a bad fit scheme wise for this offense frankly. He sucks picking up blocks. People rarely talk about it, but he sucks. He's either lost where the pressure is coming from, lost where the help is, or lost where his assignment is.

In this offense, a RB has to be able to block. I saw him make one good block Sunday. I saw him get wasted numerous times. People blame Massie (and trust me, I'm hating on Massie so far) for the Stanton hit but his help outside was Ellington and Duke ran off to do something else.

Which brings me to: why does BA hate Taylor so much? The dude can block and grind yardage between the tackles. But BA hates him.

 

[Darkside]

To me, John Brown's gaffes were the difference in the game. If he adjusts to the long ball and catches the ball right in his chest prior to halftime, it completely changes the game and 2nd half game plan.

Agree with this. Both Brown drops were so gigantic. If he's going to be open (and he will be again now) he needs to catch the fng ball. The one before half on 3rd down changed the game IMO.

That's why most coaches don't trust rooks though. It really is. They can make plays when nobody is watching but in big games they always choke. Brown choked.

 

[kerouac9]

I think Ellington is an every down back and a starting back. I think his injury is limiting him, not to make excuses but it just is--he had a couple breakaways already that he couldn't do that he would have made last year.

Also, frankly, Charles gets chunk yardage on screens and they work a lot on misdirection in KC. To my knowledge we haven't thrown a single screen to Ellington and we have no misdirection game. The best we ever could hope for in this offense is Cooper, at his best, pulling across the line for Duke along the right side. That can't happen though because Coop is sucking.

So Ellington is relegated to running between the tackles or off tackle. We don't even do much to get him in space. Given that, I think he's actually been badass.

He's a bad fit scheme wise for this offense frankly. He sucks picking up blocks. People rarely talk about it, but he sucks. He's either lost where the pressure is coming from, lost where the help is, or lost where his assignment is.

In this offense, a RB has to be able to block. I saw him make one good block Sunday. I saw him get wasted numerous times. People blame Massie (and trust me, I'm hating on Massie so far) for the Stanton hit but his help outside was Ellington and Duke ran off to do something else.

Which brings me to: why does BA hate Taylor so much? The dude can block and grind yardage between the tackles. But BA hates him.

It's so funny to me that you start out asserting that Ellington is a starting caliber back and then complaining that he can't succeed in fairly standard runs, and he needs to get the ball in space, have screens thrown to him, whatever. That's what you do for a situational back, not your dynamic All-pro type.

We actually don't run a ton of off-tackle plays or even the power stuff that I think we'd prefer. (I think) because the guards are so limited, we end up running a lot of inside zone plays, and Ellington (likely because of the injury--I don't think it's sapped his speed so much as some of his lateral agility) is running to playside instead of looking for the cutback lane or to bounce it outside.