Arians and QB's

[Russ Smith]

He has a rep for being a QB guru and it's probably true but do people really not get how hard it is to play QB for Bruce Arians? he has the most demanding offense for a QB in the NFL. We often use empty backfields, we often don't help the tackles, we often run deeper drops and deeper routes and demand the QB push the ball downfield.

Russell Wilson in the same situation, that he created, was in an offense that was spreading the ball around and taking what was there. Palmer is in an offense that keeps trying to go downfield.

Andrew Luck's entire reputation as a rookie was built on how well he hung in there all year playing in an offense that demanded he go downfield while he was getting hit over and over behind a bad OL.

That's why we could not fall behind that far, once we did they can tee off on the pass rush and sit back in coverage and they did.

Palmer forced lots of throws, he missed lots of throws, but the system we run is designed to go downfield. Add in on defense how we play due to lack of pass rush and they just destroyed us in the 2nd half.

You can't just plug in any QB with Arians and win, RG3 would be a disaster, most college QB's would be too. It takes a special guy who is very smart to remember all the stuff Arians demands of his QB.

 

[PACardsFan]

He has a rep for being a QB guru and it's probably true but do people really not get how hard it is to play QB for Bruce Arians? he has the most demanding offense for a QB in the NFL. We often use empty backfields, we often don't help the tackles, we often run deeper drops and deeper routes and demand the QB push the ball downfield.

Russell Wilson in the same situation, that he created, was in an offense that was spreading the ball around and taking what was there. Palmer is in an offense that keeps trying to go downfield.

Andrew Luck's entire reputation as a rookie was built on how well he hung in there all year playing in an offense that demanded he go downfield while he was getting hit over and over behind a bad OL.

That's why we could not fall behind that far, once we did they can tee off on the pass rush and sit back in coverage and they did.

Palmer forced lots of throws, he missed lots of throws, but the system we run is designed to go downfield. Add in on defense how we play due to lack of pass rush and they just destroyed us in the 2nd half.

You can't just plug in any QB with Arians and win, RG3 would be a disaster, most college QB's would be too. It takes a special guy who is very smart to remember all the stuff Arians demands of his QB.

Exactly why the Steelers didn't bring him back. They felt Ben was getting hit too hard & too often in BA's offense.

 

[Russ Smith]

Exactly why the Steelers didn't bring him back. They felt Ben was getting hit too hard & too often in BA's offense.

That's my point. Arians has been terrific for this franchise but the people blasting Palmer and saying get a new QB seem to have no concept how good Palmer has actually been in an offense that is not easy on a QB.

he's not Mike Martz but very few offenses in the NFL give less help to their OL than ARians does. When it works it's a thing of beauty, when it doesn't, he's not very flexible. He did start keeping DJ in there to help block and he did a good job of that but we were still trying to force the ball downfield, that's not just Palmer being greedy that's how he's coached to play. be aggressive big chunk plays don't check it down. He obviously made some ridiculous decisions back there but again QB's that play for Arians always force balls into coverage, it's his idea of how to play the position, take chances downfield.

 

[Buckybird]

It still goes back to the Oline as much as the style of offense.

Brady was getting hit more the last couple of years & the experts were saying criticizing the Oline. Likewise in Seattle earlier this season. In both cases those same experts said neither could win because of it.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

It still goes back to the Oline as much as the style of offense.

Brady was getting hit more the last couple of years & the experts were saying criticizing the Oline. Likewise in Seattle earlier this season. In both cases those same experts said neither could win because of it.

Brady has a lot more time to throw than CP. They seem to find a way to make their Oline work.

He did take more shots this year than normal, but if they can make a patch work Oline work then we should be able to.

 

[Buckybird]

Brady has a lot more time to throw than CP. They seem to find a way to make their Oline work.

He did take more shots this year than normal, but if they can make a patch work Oline work then we should be able to.

How did that patchwork Oline do in Denver yesterday?

Again if you ever watch the experts analyze the games, they seemed ready to bury the Pats earlier in the year because of the QB hits & injuries at RB & his receivers.

 

[conraddobler]

That's my point. Arians has been terrific for this franchise but the people blasting Palmer and saying get a new QB seem to have no concept how good Palmer has actually been in an offense that is not easy on a QB.

he's not Mike Martz but very few offenses in the NFL give less help to their OL than ARians does. When it works it's a thing of beauty, when it doesn't, he's not very flexible. He did start keeping DJ in there to help block and he did a good job of that but we were still trying to force the ball downfield, that's not just Palmer being greedy that's how he's coached to play. be aggressive big chunk plays don't check it down. He obviously made some ridiculous decisions back there but again QB's that play for Arians always force balls into coverage, it's his idea of how to play the position, take chances downfield.

I really think his finger has him throwing slightly off and that's enough to cause all kinds of havoc.

I agree with everything you say and I love Arian's but I don't know how this resolves itself into a Super Bowl win with Carson Palmer.

He's not that durable.

 

[TRW]

I know some think the "no risk it, no biscuit" is charming, but not in the context of some of BA's playcalling. Sometimes I think he just gets to cute at curious times.

All that said, I think he's the best Head Coach this team has ever had.

 

[conraddobler]

I know some think the "no risk it, no biscuit" is charming, but not in the context of some of BA's playcalling. Sometimes I think he just gets to cute at curious times.

All that said, I think he's the best Head Coach this team has ever had.

He's not any better than Don Coryel who ironically was a sort of designer of a lot of what he does.

Don Coryel would of won the SB had he had anything like our defense.

 

[Ed Burmila]

I agree with you, and clearly this offseason they are not going to find someone who is better than Palmer. Like it or not, there's just nobody out there. A rookie would get f-ing killed in this offense.

The big problem yesterday was Palmer himself, though. Just missing wide open receivers, forcing ridiculous throws...the mental toughness just was not there. At his age, if it's not there now I doubt it will ever be there.

 

[dreday]

'No risk it, no biscuit'

Where's there's too much risk exposed at unnecessary times, there will be repercussions. Keeping Mathieu and Palmer in the Eagles game when we had a comfortable lead is part of the last 3 games problems. BA's philosophy of going all in when not necessary has cost us.

I love BA and what he's done for this team but I wish he would mitigate is risk better. His unpredictability has become predictable.

 

[Ed Burmila]

I know some think the "no risk it, no biscuit" is charming, but not in the context of some of BA's playcalling. Sometimes I think he just gets to cute at curious times.

All that said, I think he's the best Head Coach this team has ever had.

I agree, we were moving early in the 2nd Q. and then we ran a reverse with Fitzgerald and a direct snap for 1 yard to DJ. Put us in yet another 3rd and long. Too cute. Way too cute.

 

[Shane]

Brady has a lot more time to throw than CP. They seem to find a way to make their Oline work.

He did take more shots this year than normal, but if they can make a patch work Oline work then we should be able to.

Bull Bradybwas shellacked 20 times yesterday the most hits a QB has taken all season in any game

 

[Russ Smith]

It still goes back to the Oline as much as the style of offense.

Brady was getting hit more the last couple of years & the experts were saying criticizing the Oline. Likewise in Seattle earlier this season. In both cases those same experts said neither could win because of it.

Sure but the OL gets no help, that's the design of the offense. You noticed even Aikman said they were told all week the Cards feel they run the ball better with 4 Wr's than 2 TE's. Note, early in the year I was harping on this when Fells got hurt, the rushing numbers with Fells in vs out were startling. nearly 2 ypc more with him in than out.

We run the ball MUCH better with 2 WR's in and a TE or 2 TE's in. Statistically it's not even debatable, but Bruce Arians was telling FOX before the game the exact opposite. he was either trying to lie to them, or justify in advance his plan to go 4wr and try and attack them over the top.

That's his system, that's how he wants to play. We're 20-4 with Palmer in it so it obviously works but in large part because Palmer is good enough to make it work. Many Qb's aren't.

 

[Russ Smith]

I agree, we were moving early in the 2nd Q. and then we ran a reverse with Fitzgerald and a direct snap for 1 yard to DJ. Put us in yet another 3rd and long. Too cute. Way too cute.

I'm still not sure if that was a reverse or a throw. Fitz threw it but not sure if that was the call or if he threw it to avoid the big loss.

Agreed though, we had the offense clicking, we got some good runs, and then he got greedy.

Same thing after the PP pick, we had time to run the ball or play smart but we went for the TD and Palmer made a terrible decision. Everyone knows now arians is going to take that shot, they are just sitting on it. And Palmer keeps taking it because he's coached to take it.

Palmer played awful football yesterday, missed open guys, made poor decisions etc. But he's going to be the QB next year and if we don't decide to gut the roster we're an 11 or 12 win team potentially next year too.

They have to decide what they're going to do longer term. I don't get the impression young QB's and BA work well together. If we draft a young QB it almost tells me they think Arians is close to retiring.

 

[Buckybird]

Sure but the OL gets no help, that's the design of the offense. You noticed even Aikman said they were told all week the Cards feel they run the ball better with 4 Wr's than 2 TE's. Note, early in the year I was harping on this when Fells got hurt, the rushing numbers with Fells in vs out were startling. nearly 2 ypc more with him in than out.

We run the ball MUCH better with 2 WR's in and a TE or 2 TE's in. Statistically it's not even debatable, but Bruce Arians was telling FOX before the game the exact opposite. he was either trying to lie to them, or justify in advance his plan to go 4wr and try and attack them over the top.

That's his system, that's how he wants to play. We're 20-4 with Palmer in it so it obviously works but in large part because Palmer is good enough to make it work. Many Qb's aren't.

Which is my point Russ. BA ain't changing his philosophy, so it's why the need to get better up front. He's the modern day Don Coryell & Mike Martz so people on this thread complaining about better get used to it. And yes he's 20-4 & I'll go to battle with that dude any day.

 

[Russ Smith]

Which is my point Russ. BA ain't changing his philosophy, so it's why the need to get better up front. He's the modern day Don Coryell & Mike Martz so people on this thread complaining about better get used to it. And yes he's 20-4 & I'll go to battle with that dude any day.

My point is though you can't really judge this OL because of the way we play. it's like the people who constantly harp on PP not being elite because he gets beat. He plays 1 on 1 with no safety help on a team that blitzes every down, of course he gets beat. He had a huge mistake on the punt return yesterday but he also made one of the smartest plays of the game when he grabbed Ginn and took the hold over giving up a TD pass. That's the nature of how we play, no margin for error.

It's the same on offense, we will always give up pressure and get holding calls because of the way Arians designs the offense.

I think he needs to reconsider it, and play his TE's more. When Aikman said that about running with 4WR's I had to do a double take and check because I knew it wasn't true.

 

[Dback Jon]

'No risk it, no biscuit'

Where's there's too much risk exposed at unnecessary times, there will be repercussions. Keeping Mathieu and Palmer in the Eagles game when we had a comfortable lead is part of the last 3 games problems. BA's philosophy of going all in when not necessary has cost us.

I love BA and what he's done for this team but I wish he would mitigate is risk better. His unpredictability has become predictable.

Agree with this 100%

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

WTH HAPPENED to Veldheer the past 8-10 weeks?

 

[dylanbw]

I'm still not sure if that was a reverse or a throw. Fitz threw it but not sure if that was the call or if he threw it to avoid the big loss.

Agreed though, we had the offense clicking, we got some good runs, and then he got greedy.

Same thing after the PP pick, we had time to run the ball or play smart but we went for the TD and Palmer made a terrible decision. Everyone knows now arians is going to take that shot, they are just sitting on it. And Palmer keeps taking it because he's coached to take it.

Palmer played awful football yesterday, missed open guys, made poor decisions etc. But he's going to be the QB next year and if we don't decide to gut the roster we're an 11 or 12 win team potentially next year too.

They have to decide what they're going to do longer term. I don't get the impression young QB's and BA work well together. If we draft a young QB it almost tells me they think Arians is close to retiring.

Not sure I understand this point. BA touched on this post game, saying we had two timeouts and Carson has to take the check down there. Carson was the one who decided to pass up a wide open Fells for 10 yards, and throw up a prayer into double-coverage to tiny John Brown. If you want to force one into Fitz or Floyd who can box somebody out, maybe I get it. John Brown can't out physical anybody! I don't understand Carson's decision in that spot, but I do understand sending John Brown deep in order to clear out space underneath.

 

[Russ Smith]

Not sure I understand this point. BA touched on this post game, saying we had two timeouts and Carson has to take the check down there. Carson was the one who decided to pass up a wide open Fells for 10 yards, and throw up a prayer into double-coverage to tiny John Brown. If you want to force one into Fitz or Floyd who can box somebody out, maybe I get it. John Brown can't out physical anybody! I don't understand Carson's decision in that spot, but I do understand sending John Brown deep in order to clear out space underneath.

I'm saying Carson has been coached to take shots since he's been here. So even though ARians made it clear he can't make that throw, that throw is a direct result of his philosophy to take shots.

Yes Palmer has to be more selective but it's been that way since Arians was hired. You can't tell a guy over and over go for the big play and then be surprised when he does it and it backfires. Horrible decision by Palmer but he's programmed to do that.

 

[Buckybird]

If you want to force one into Fitz or Floyd who can box somebody out, maybe I get it. John Brown can't out physical anybody! I don't understand Carson's decision in that spot, but I do understand sending John Brown deep in order to clear out space underneath.

This is one of the most puzzling things I've been watching for almost years now. It's on Palmer, but BA has also called fades to the Cards shortest WR more than once, often with bad results. With the success Fitz has had with this from college thru the NFL it's mind boggling we rarely do it in anymore.

 

[Buckybird]

My point is though you can't really judge this OL because of the way we play. it's like the people who constantly harp on PP not being elite because he gets beat. He plays 1 on 1 with no safety help on a team that blitzes every down, of course he gets beat. He had a huge mistake on the punt return yesterday but he also made one of the smartest plays of the game when he grabbed Ginn and took the hold over giving up a TD pass. That's the nature of how we play, no margin for error.

It's the same on offense, we will always give up pressure and get holding calls because of the way Arians designs the offense.

I think he needs to reconsider it, and play his TE's more. When Aikman said that about running with 4WR's I had to do a double take and check because I knew it wasn't true.

I'll agree partly because Wiz did the same with Warner as did Martz. The problem I have is that Seindlein & Larsen are solid players & nothing more. We're about to see because I think both are gone next year & Massie as well.

 

[kerouac9]

Sure but the OL gets no help, that's the design of the offense. You noticed even Aikman said they were told all week the Cards feel they run the ball better with 4 Wr's than 2 TE's. Note, early in the year I was harping on this when Fells got hurt, the rushing numbers with Fells in vs out were startling. nearly 2 ypc more with him in than out.

We run the ball MUCH better with 2 WR's in and a TE or 2 TE's in. Statistically it's not even debatable, but Bruce Arians was telling FOX before the game the exact opposite. he was either trying to lie to them, or justify in advance his plan to go 4wr and try and attack them over the top.

That's his system, that's how he wants to play. We're 20-4 with Palmer in it so it obviously works but in large part because Palmer is good enough to make it work. Many Qb's aren't.

I think those are lies because our TEs aren't a receiving threat, so you have to keep your tiny WRs on the field with Fitz in the slot or in line. I think that if Troy Niklas had worked out, we'd be playing more 2TE sets. IIRC, Indy played a lot of 2TE sets when two of their top five receivers were tight ends.

I don't think you can dump a rookie first-rounder into Arians' offense and hope for the best. Even as a rookie, Luck turned the ball over too much. I think that ideally you'd have someone you could sit behind Palmer for a year and get a ton of reps and attention.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think those are lies because our TEs aren't a receiving threat, so you have to keep your tiny WRs on the field with Fitz in the slot or in line. I think that if Troy Niklas had worked out, we'd be playing more 2TE sets. IIRC, Indy played a lot of 2TE sets when two of their top five receivers were tight ends.

I don't think you can dump a rookie first-rounder into Arians' offense and hope for the best. Even as a rookie, Luck turned the ball over too much. I think that ideally you'd have someone you could sit behind Palmer for a year and get a ton of reps and attention.

Right INdy ran a different offense they used 2 TE's quite a bit. We really don't.

Fells has been really good when healthy, he can run after the catch and he can block. Gresham hasn't played that much, when he has, he can block. Niklas has been a bust so far.

But even playing one TE makes a difference, our numbers with 2 WR's running teh ball are quite good. David Johnson 6.1 YPC with 2 WR's, Chris Johnson 4.2 and 4.9 with 3 Wr's. There's just no evidence that we run the ball well with 4 Wr's. The idea is spread them out but it really hasn't worked much this year.

Dj improved all year, once he got the starting job you could see him grow as a pass blocker, and he learned to run tougher inside and not fumble. Going forward he's clearly the guy.

They have to figure out how to take advantage of that and to me that means play at least 1 TE more often. Several of DJ's good runs yesterday involved Fells making a big block.

I'm just not convinced Arians will change his offense but maybe he will if he thinks he has good enough TE's.