Arizona Basketball 2019-2020

[MaoTosiFanClub]

To me it goes even beyond that. They are getting progressively worse.

Again, this isn't true.

They look about the same as they did at the beginning of the season. The competition has just gotten better.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

The 3-4 year players aren't doing particularly well lately, either. (See, e.g., Dylan Smith, Ira Lee, Gabe York, Chase Jeter, Dusan Ristic, etc.) I think Miller, despite his relatively young age, is just a dinosaur as a coach. Refuses to make adjustments, to evolve his system with the times and to tailor his game plan to his players' strengths. (See, e.g., his refusal to play zone defense, and his reversion this season to the old, tired, slow, deliberate motion offense despite obvious success earlier in the season letting Mannion run a more wide open offense...to the point that Mannion, Baker and Green in their frustration are starting to defy Miller openly by just jacking up bad shots very early in possessions without even trying to run any offensive set.) Miller's stubbornness appears to be his undoing.

I get the system complaints and largely agree. Miller (like Howland) seems to be more preoccupied with hedging screens 40 feet from the basket vs why his teams often struggle to score 60 points. His best teams also featured stretch 4's but he continues to recruit multiple traditional bigs for some reason.

With regards to the players, anyone in college basketball will tell you that head coaches deserving blame or credit for a specific players development is largely a talking point and not based in reality. The coaches don't have that much direct hands-on time with these guys so it falls on the players themselves for the most part. The problem is mostly player evaluation. Some of the above-mentioned guys aren't Pac-12 level players or are not in the right system to maximize their limited skill sets. Ira Lee for example is a 5 in today's basketball and when playing with another low post player will simply clog things up. Ristic plays better with a stretch 4 in Lauri than another post big like Ayton. York and Smith probably were utilized to the best of their abilities, I mean Miller can't singlehandedly teach those guys how to dribble. That of course falls on Miller as well.

 

[1Sun]

Again, this isn't true.

They look about the same as they did at the beginning of the season. The competition has just gotten better.

Illinois is significantly better than the St. John's squad that was blown out by ASU.

 

[1Sun]

I get the system complaints and largely agree. Miller (like Howland) seems to be more preoccupied with hedging screens 40 feet from the basket vs why his teams often struggle to score 60 points. His best teams also featured stretch 4's but he continues to recruit multiple traditional bigs for some reason.

With regards to the players, anyone in college basketball will tell you that head coaches deserving blame or credit for a specific players development is largely a talking point and not based in reality. The coaches don't have that much direct hands-on time with these guys so it falls on the players themselves for the most part. The problem is mostly player evaluation. Some of the above-mentioned guys aren't Pac-12 level players or are not in the right system to maximize their limited skill sets. Ira Lee for example is a 5 in today's basketball and when playing with another low post player will simply clog things up. Ristic plays better with a stretch 4 in Lauri than another post big like Ayton. York and Smith probably were utilized to the best of their abilities, I mean Miller can't singlehandedly teach those guys how to dribble. That of course falls on Miller as well.

Point well taken, but when pretty much every player (in this case, other than Zeke Nnaji) regresses, and when key players (in this case, Mannion, Green and Baker) start to zone the coach out...

 

[Russ Smith]

Couple of comments, i think SJ won because their press bothered UA early and UA was playing from behind for so long they expended tons of energy trying to come back.

Ira Lee is much better than I ever expected, go back and look when he committed I predicted he'd transfer out after 1 year because he wouldn't play. He's probably peaked now but that's lack of talent not lack of development IMO.

Mannion played quite well but he missed that last shot because SJ scouted them, UA had done that at least twice earlier in the season so they played Nico to make that move and made the shot tougher.

Baker is interesting he's 5-18 on 3's the last few games. This was a kid who everyoen said was an undersized 2 that should not have gone to UK, he won't play he'll transfer. He's supposed to be a great shooter, but he's really improved his defense and ball handling, but now is in a big shooting slump. It's too early to say he's regressed, he's still shooting over 40% from 3. You knew he wasn't going to shoot 13-25 on 3's all year that was just very unlikely, by the same token he won't shoot 5-18. he's somewhere in between.

Arizona clearly had the better talent, if I had to nitpick I'd question why with all the SJ bigs on the bench with fouls, UA didn't just do the same thing again try to get the ball inside and draw a foul. I'd also question waiting so long to make the move, UA had the size advantage get the shot up earlier in case you miss so have more time. yes they had enough time to possibly get a putback but I think standing near halfcourt for a few seconds was a calculated risk it only works if you make the shot.

The perception on Miller(and Howland) for years has been their intense style bothers players, they get nervous, they look over their shoulder, they don't play freely so in key situations they tighten up. Remains to be seen if that will be the case with this team or not, Nnaji doesn't seem to have that problem yet.

 

[GatorAZ]

St Johns was missing one of their best players. No excuse for this outcome... The only silver lining is none of these guys are lottery picks with the exception of Green and even he disappears for long stretches like Stanley.

The optimism about our depth is also dead based on Jeter and Smith’s play so far. Hazzard also not stretching the floor like we thought he’d provide... As 1Sun mentioned this has a feel to the Ayton team. Not necessarily the personnel aspect but it’s a similar looking mess early on the season. The P12 also isn’t awful like it was that year.

 

[1Sun]

St Johns was missing one of their best players. No excuse for this outcome... The only silver lining is none of these guys are lottery picks with the exception of Green and even he disappears for long stretches like Stanley.

The optimism about our depth is also dead based on Jeter and Smith’s play so far. Hazzard also not stretching the floor like we thought he’d provide... As 1Sun mentioned this has a feel to the Ayton team. Not necessarily the personnel aspect but it’s a similar looking mess early on the season. The P12 also isn’t awful like it was that year.

Mannion and Green are one and done no matter what happens.

 

[GatorAZ]

Mannion and Green are one and done no matter what happens.

I’m not there yet but it would be more of a don’t-want-to-come back-to-this type thing rather than I’m-ready-for-the-NBA mindset.

 

[1Sun]

I’m not there yet but it would be more of a don’t-want-to-come back-to-this type thing rather than I’m-ready-for-the-NBA mindset.

I think it will be a combination of both. They look like they have already checked out in an I-don't-want-to-endure-this-type-of-thing-anymore sense..

 

[Dback Jon]

The 3-4 year players aren't doing particularly well lately, either. (See, e.g., Dylan Smith, Ira Lee, Gabe York, Chase Jeter, Dusan Ristic, etc.) I think Miller, despite his relatively young age, is just a dinosaur as a coach. Refuses to make adjustments, to evolve his system with the times and to tailor his game plan to his players' strengths. (See, e.g., his refusal to play zone defense, and his reversion this season to the old, tired, slow, deliberate motion offense despite obvious success earlier in the season letting Mannion run a more wide open offense...to the point that Mannion, Baker and Green in their frustration are starting to defy Miller openly by just jacking up bad shots very early in possessions without even trying to run any offensive set.) Miller's stubbornness appears to be his undoing.

I wasn’t referring just to the Arizona players that weren’t one and

I think it will be a combination of both. They look like they have already checked out in an I-don't-want-to-endure-this-type-of-thing-anymore sense..

it will be interesting if any more players follow Wiseman’s lead and become one semester and dones.

 

[Russ Smith]

I wasn’t referring just to the Arizona players that weren’t one and



it will be interesting if any more players follow Wiseman’s lead and become one semester and dones.

Allegedly Wiseman has issues with Penny but I gotta think those issues are you told me nothing would come of this when you paid to move us so I could attend your school, now I'm ineligible and I don't have 11,500 to pay back so I might as well just turn pro. That is I don't think the issue there is was he happy playing for Penny, I think Penny used him to get the Memphis job and probably told them don't worry nothing will happen, and now they're stuck ineligible and can't afford the money to get eligible.

I do think we're going to see more kids just skip college though. UCLA is allegedly(with ASU) one of the frontrunners for Josh Christopher next year and it would not surprise me at all if he just decides to bypass college, he's a lottery pick, he's friends with Shareef and UCLA's top recruit but does he want to risk injury and play a year for Cronin or just go play overseas, if it were me and I were him I'd seriously think about not going to college.

With Mannion and Green the fact that they're good friends makes it far less likely they're going to look to leave IMO. I don't think they would anyways but they have each other if they were actually unhappy, to be fair Wiseman had several AAU teammates at Memphis too.

 

[1Sun]

Allegedly Wiseman has issues with Penny but I gotta think those issues are you told me nothing would come of this when you paid to move us so I could attend your school, now I'm ineligible and I don't have 11,500 to pay back so I might as well just turn pro. That is I don't think the issue there is was he happy playing for Penny, I think Penny used him to get the Memphis job and probably told them don't worry nothing will happen, and now they're stuck ineligible and can't afford the money to get eligible.

I do think we're going to see more kids just skip college though. UCLA is allegedly(with ASU) one of the frontrunners for Josh Christopher next year and it would not surprise me at all if he just decides to bypass college, he's a lottery pick, he's friends with Shareef and UCLA's top recruit but does he want to risk injury and play a year for Cronin or just go play overseas, if it were me and I were him I'd seriously think about not going to college.

With Mannion and Green the fact that they're good friends makes it far less likely they're going to look to leave IMO. I don't think they would anyways but they have each other if they were actually unhappy, to be fair Wiseman had several AAU teammates at Memphis too.

I actually think this is why both Green and Mannion appear to have checked out mentally. Clearly Mannion checked out first, and now it appears his close friend Green has followed suit.

 

[Russ Smith]

I actually think this is why both Green and Mannion appear to have checked out mentally. Clearly Mannion checked out first, and now it appears his close friend Green has followed suit.

It just seems to me that there's a bit of a scouting report on them both now and like with other freshmen they're going to have to adjust. Don MacLean said on Pac 12 that he notices Mannion tends to drift on his shot off the dribble and he thinks teams are running at him harder now because they have figured out he's far less accurate off the dribble(from 3). In the last game he was driving to the rim much more which would seem like a reasonable adjustment when teams are running you off the 3.

With Green I think he's adjusting to it not being like AAU or HS where he was both the most athletic and the strongest kid in every game, he's a very good player I'm sure he'll figure it out. He's more of a finisher than a shooter I think he's probably taking too many jumpshots. 30% of his shots are 3's and he seems to take quite a few long 2's as well. I don't know why is that because teams are daring him to shoot, because he's trying to show NBA teams he can shoot I really don't know.

Freshmen have to deal with adjustments I remember pointing out here when Nick Johnson was a freshman everytime he went left he pulled up for a jumper, everytime he went right he tried to go all the way to the rim, Mannion seems to have a pretty similar tendency I think teams have scouted that on him and that's probably why he kept going left all the way to the rim in the last game, to cross up the scouting report.

 

[1Sun]

It just seems to me that there's a bit of a scouting report on them both now and like with other freshmen they're going to have to adjust. Don MacLean said on Pac 12 that he notices Mannion tends to drift on his shot off the dribble and he thinks teams are running at him harder now because they have figured out he's far less accurate off the dribble(from 3). In the last game he was driving to the rim much more which would seem like a reasonable adjustment when teams are running you off the 3.

With Green I think he's adjusting to it not being like AAU or HS where he was both the most athletic and the strongest kid in every game, he's a very good player I'm sure he'll figure it out. He's more of a finisher than a shooter I think he's probably taking too many jumpshots. 30% of his shots are 3's and he seems to take quite a few long 2's as well. I don't know why is that because teams are daring him to shoot, because he's trying to show NBA teams he can shoot I really don't know.

Freshmen have to deal with adjustments I remember pointing out here when Nick Johnson was a freshman everytime he went left he pulled up for a jumper, everytime he went right he tried to go all the way to the rim, Mannion seems to have a pretty similar tendency I think teams have scouted that on him and that's probably why he kept going left all the way to the rim in the last game, to cross up the scouting report.

There are plenty of other freshmen in the country, though, and none have regressed as much as Mannion and Green...

 

[gimpy]

You sure?

 

[1Sun]

You sure?

Yes. They were all-world to start the season, and now they're playing like trash. Then again, the only one on the team who hasn't regressed is Nnaji (and his play slipped considerably, but it appears he has recovered).

Guards especially seem to struggle under Sean Miller, which is ironic considering the position Miller played.

 

[overseascardfan]

If UA was to move on from Miller, who could they lure?

 

[1Sun]

Nice win to start the conference season, and great to see Nnaji, Green, Koloko and even Smith look so effective.

At what point do we call Mannion's freshman campaign a bust? He seems to be getting worse and worse.

 

[TJ]

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[82CardsGrad]

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Could be the worst, most unathletic and all-around horrendous ASU team I’ve seen in a long time... which is saying something!

 

[1Sun]

Could be the worst, most unathletic and all-around horrendous ASU team I’ve seen in a long time... which is saying something!

And yet they blew out the same St. John's team that just beat us. Strange season thus far...

 

[TJ]

Could be the worst, most unathletic and all-around horrendous ASU team I’ve seen in a long time... which is saying something!

The previous two seasons, ASU had been feeding off high energy and high excitement, which is what propelled its victories over Kansas twice. This season’s team, though talented, is very stale. Almost listless. Even Remy looks like he cant wait for the season to end.

My criticism of Bobby Hurley has been that he’s more of a cheerleader than a tactician, which explains the histrionics on the sideline. If he has to game plan, he’s screwed.

Maybe it’s a different game if White were healthier and able to keep Arizona off the boards, but ASU was not only overmatched, but was playing a pissed off, embarrassed Arizona team.

 

[82CardsGrad]

The previous two seasons, ASU had been feeding off high energy and high excitement, which is what propelled its victories over Kansas twice. This season’s team, though talented, is very stale. Almost listless. Even Remy looks like he cant wait for the season to end.

My criticism of Bobby Hurley has been that he’s more of a cheerleader than a tactician, which explains the histrionics on the sideline. If he has to game plan, he’s screwed.

Maybe it’s a different game if White were healthier and able to keep Arizona off the boards, but ASU was not only overmatched, but was playing a pissed off, embarrassed Arizona team.

I think Hurley might be a better coach than you’re giving him credit for... though, his recruiting thus far leaves a ton to be desired.
ASU certainly doesn’t attract consistent top-tier talent. But it’s fair to expect much better in this area than what Bobby has produced thus far. Especially with regard to bigs... White notwithstanding and who, if he was healthy certainly would’ve made the game a bit tighter...
Along with the inability to secure quality bigs, I’ve been shocked at Hurley’s inability to grab, at least a few, consistent shooters. He was able to bring Shannon Evans to Tempe from Buffalo when he first came to ASU... but that’s it when it comes to shooters. And this season the Devils just might break historically pathetic shooting and free throw shootings records!

It’s gonna be a long, painful PAC-12 season for Bobby this year...

 

[Lefty]

Loved the hustle. They need to bring that level of energy every game. Koloko has earned more playing time with his rebounding. It was nice to see Jeter get physical. Finally, great to see Stone Gettings back. His outside shooting and rebounding off the bench is an added bonus.

 

[1Sun]

Loved the hustle. They need to bring that level of energy every game. Koloko has earned more playing time with his rebounding. It was nice to see Jeter get physical. Finally, great to see Stone Gettings back. His outside shooting and rebounding off the bench is an added bonus.

Everything last night was encouraging...except for Mannion (oh, and Ira Lee's 0-4 FT)...