Arizona Cardinals History: Vote for Quarterback

[abomb]

Where is Chris Griesen?

I basically took the statistical leader for each season.

A-Bomb

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Lomax! Hands down...

 

[conraddobler]

I'm protesting, WHERE'S TOM TUPA, ????????????


The versatile punter QB????

 

[RedViper]

My only argument there is we wouldn't have needed those incredible comeback victories if he hadn't thrown 20 picks that year.

Jake was exciting to watch and at that point in his career even I thought we had a franchise QB, just cut out the turnovers and he seemed destined to be a great QB, it just never worked out here.

Plummer never had the talent here he has in Denver but he played with Rob Moore, Frank Sanders, David Boston, all at the peak of their careers, it's not like he was throwing to Bryan Gilmore and Nate Poole for 6 years here.

He just never took the next step here, he has in Denver.

Its one thing to say, those three games wouldn't have needed last second comebacks if Jake had just crushed the opponents from the start. But the thing is, I'm only looking at the end result. Three must win victories, that take us into the playoffs and led us to a playoff victory on Dallas' homefield. No one else on the list can point to anything that approaches that accomplishment. Not in the least.

The other thing is, I've got to object to any argument Jake's supporting cast here approached what he has now in Denver in any way. Mainly, he always played behind an O'line here that ranged from very bad to purely awful. He never had a legitimate running game to draw the heat. Rob Moore was gimpy in 98 then entirely injured after the preseason of 99. In 97 when Moore was entirely healthy he and Jake put up huge numbers. In 01 when Boston was healthy he and Jake put up huge numbers. In 02 before Boston goes down the team managed an astonishing 4-2. At the tail end of 02 even Sanders got hurt. Jake never had a team here that was worth a dam IMHO.

 

[Duckjake]

I'm protesting, WHERE'S TOM TUPA, ????????????


The versatile punter QB????

What a great hand at the two point conversion.

 

[conraddobler]

Its one thing to say, those three games wouldn't have needed last second comebacks if Jake had just crushed the opponents from the start. But the thing is, I'm only looking at the end result. Three must win victories, that take us into the playoffs and led us to a playoff victory on Dallas' homefield. No one else on the list can point to anything that approaches that accomplishment. Not in the least.

The other thing is, I've got to object to any argument Jake's supporting cast here approached what he has now in Denver in any way. Mainly, he always played behind an O'line here that ranged from very bad to purely awful. He never had a legitimate running game to draw the heat. Rob Moore was gimpy in 98 then entirely injured after the preseason of 99. In 97 when Moore was entirely healthy he and Jake put up huge numbers. In 01 when Boston was healthy he and Jake put up huge numbers. In 02 before Boston goes down the team managed an astonishing 4-2. At the tail end of 02 even Sanders got hurt. Jake never had a team here that was worth a dam IMHO.

Most if not all of Jake's tenure here was in the dark ages where players got traded or cut or not resigned just because we were stingy, frugal, or plain wrong about them.

This was also under the dynamic duo of Tobin/Mac, one of which as Russ has pointed out got the job after his unit quit on the first of said duo.

During all of that Jake did some amazing stuff, and you are correct he didn't work out here.

I attribute that to us, any employer worth their salt wouldn't have seen Jake as the savior, they'd have seen him as potential that needed discipline and coaching.

He never got that here, he didn't impose it on himself that is for sure but how many players are actually capable of that? Not many.

 

[vince56]

I'm gonna be different and say Beuerlein. I loved his play. We had the #4 or #5 passing attack in '93, and Steve made the pro bowl for Carolina a few years after we let him go. Bugel should've gotten another year, we would've been a playoff team in '94.

I didn't vote for Lomax because I'm to young to remember him.

 

[Russ Smith]

Its one thing to say, those three games wouldn't have needed last second comebacks if Jake had just crushed the opponents from the start. But the thing is, I'm only looking at the end result. Three must win victories, that take us into the playoffs and led us to a playoff victory on Dallas' homefield. No one else on the list can point to anything that approaches that accomplishment. Not in the least.

The other thing is, I've got to object to any argument Jake's supporting cast here approached what he has now in Denver in any way. Mainly, he always played behind an O'line here that ranged from very bad to purely awful. He never had a legitimate running game to draw the heat. Rob Moore was gimpy in 98 then entirely injured after the preseason of 99. In 97 when Moore was entirely healthy he and Jake put up huge numbers. In 01 when Boston was healthy he and Jake put up huge numbers. In 02 before Boston goes down the team managed an astonishing 4-2. At the tail end of 02 even Sanders got hurt. Jake never had a team here that was worth a dam IMHO.

Again it depends on how the poll is defined, it says best QB in Arizona. Lomax' only year here he had a much better season than Jake did in '98. The team won 2 more games in '98 but you finish 3rd in the NFL in takeaways playing the weakest schedule in the NFL, frankly you ought to win more than 9 games. Give Lomax that many turnovers and he wins more than 7 games his last year here.

The 4-2 start you refer to was in spite of Jake, his numbers were awful the first 6 games, he didn't start to play better until after everyone got hurt . That's precisely why the Cards decided at that point they weren't going to bring him back.

jake was something like the 20th rated passer in the NFL in 98, we had a lot of close games and comebacks in large part because he played so inconsistently early in the games. 52 passer rating in the first quarter, 6 picks in only 94 attempts there's your reason why we always fell behind that year.

Great year, exciting as hell to watch and Jake's comebacks were a big reason why, but that doesn't mean he was a good QB that year. Put Lomax on that team we win 11-12 games that year.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm gonna be different and say Beuerlein. I loved his play. We had the #4 or #5 passing attack in '93, and Steve made the pro bowl for Carolina a few years after we let him go. Bugel should've gotten another year, we would've been a playoff team in '94.

I didn't vote for Lomax because I'm to young to remember him.

If we took a vote for worst coach Buddy would be my vote hands down precisely for what he did to that team. Got rid of all the WR's and Beuerlein, off a top 10 offense. Just nuts, he didn't like Hearst, who admittedly struggled early in his career(something I'm told no good RB does), and then we wound up having to dump Hearst to get enough caproom to sign Simeon Rice because Buddy had squandered the cap so much before leaving.

That goes back to my arguments about how difficult it was for Green to rebuild this team, at least he had tons of caproom. When Tobin took over the team not only stunk, but we were OVER the cap and had to cut starters to sign draft picks. Buddy set the franchise back several years in that regard.

 

[Duckjake]

If we took a vote for worst coach Buddy would be my vote hands down precisely for what he did to that team. Got rid of all the WR's and Beuerlein, off a top 10 offense. Just nuts, he didn't like Hearst, who admittedly struggled early in his career(something I'm told no good RB does), and then we wound up having to dump Hearst to get enough caproom to sign Simeon Rice because Buddy had squandered the cap so much before leaving.

That goes back to my arguments about how difficult it was for Green to rebuild this team, at least he had tons of caproom. When Tobin took over the team not only stunk, but we were OVER the cap and had to cut starters to sign draft picks. Buddy set the franchise back several years in that regard.

I would have to say that McGinnis was the worst coach. McGinnis defensive units stunk when he was DC and the entire team stunk once he took over as head coach.

Tobin took the mess Ryan left and just 3 years later had the Cards first advancing playoff win in 50 years. Green better get busy.

As for salary cap problems didn't the injuries to Wadsworth and Swann, and the huge contract given Plummer really put the Cards in a hole? I seem to remember reading about the huge amount of "dead" money impacting the sal cap. Can't remember exactly which year though.

 

[conraddobler]

I would have to say that McGinnis was the worst coach. McGinnis defensive units stunk when he was DC and the entire team stunk once he took over as head coach.

Tobin took the mess Ryan left and just 3 years later had the Cards first advancing playoff win in 50 years. Green better get busy.

As for salary cap problems didn't the injuries to Wadsworth and Swann, and the huge contract given Plummer really put the Cards in a hole? I seem to remember reading about the huge amount of "dead" money impacting the sal cap. Can't remember exactly which year though.

What Buddy did is basically shred Bidwill just as he was comming out of his spending shell and set us back about 10 years.

Since Buddy was the GM then, well he's the worst GM in our history, given that he's the only one, then he's the best too.

Bidwill has tried from time to time to spend money to fix the problem, always meeting with immediate doom so in a sense his frugality is justified, you can have a crappy team that costs the league minimum or you can spend a fortune for the same results.

 

[Russ Smith]

I would have to say that McGinnis was the worst coach. McGinnis defensive units stunk when he was DC and the entire team stunk once he took over as head coach.

Tobin took the mess Ryan left and just 3 years later had the Cards first advancing playoff win in 50 years. Green better get busy.

As for salary cap problems didn't the injuries to Wadsworth and Swann, and the huge contract given Plummer really put the Cards in a hole? I seem to remember reading about the huge amount of "dead" money impacting the sal cap. Can't remember exactly which year though.

yes but Tobin didn't inherit those problems and we weren't really "capped out" we were cashed out, we paid so much cash to Jake for his signing bonus, with 2 first rounders that year(Boston and Shelton) we didn't have the cash to come up with the signing bonuses that CEnters, Brown, Miller and all those other players with heart wanted after seeing how much cash we gave Jake. to my knowledge we were never over the cap in those years.

McGinnis is the worst pure football coach, but he didn't screw up the cap nearly as bad as Buddy did.

 

[Buckybird]

Easy, Lomax's 3/4 season in '88 was better than any QB to fill in since!

 

[RedViper]

Again it depends on how the poll is defined, it says best QB in Arizona. Lomax' only year here he had a much better season than Jake did in '98. The team won 2 more games in '98 but you finish 3rd in the NFL in takeaways playing the weakest schedule in the NFL, frankly you ought to win more than 9 games. Give Lomax that many turnovers and he wins more than 7 games his last year here.

The 4-2 start you refer to was in spite of Jake, his numbers were awful the first 6 games, he didn't start to play better until after everyone got hurt . That's precisely why the Cards decided at that point they weren't going to bring him back.

jake was something like the 20th rated passer in the NFL in 98, we had a lot of close games and comebacks in large part because he played so inconsistently early in the games. 52 passer rating in the first quarter, 6 picks in only 94 attempts there's your reason why we always fell behind that year.

Great year, exciting as hell to watch and Jake's comebacks were a big reason why, but that doesn't mean he was a good QB that year. Put Lomax on that team we win 11-12 games that year.

I agree my analysis and judgment of how to measure our best quarterback probably might not match the poll question.

I cant agree with any suggestion however, that Jake was a bad quarterback holding back an otherwise good team at any point. Even in 98, I think our O'line was deficient, our running game, although much better than most years for us, was nothing that the opponents feared to any significant degree. I don't think either of those things gave Jake any real chance to minimize the number of INT's he would have to incur. Bad blocking, mediocre running, for him to move that offense he would have to take long chances which accordingly, caused many INT's. Some of them were boneheaded INT's and completely his fault. But there would not have been so many if he had the blocking. Neil Lomax used to work behind his wide-bodies. (Did we really used to have an offensive line that actually merited a nickname?) I don't think, were Lomax to play behind that same line in 98, that he wins many more games than Jake, if any.

For me, the story of Jake and the Cards was one of a very good QB on a team that was mediocre in 98, but almost entirely awful in every other year. I look at what that kid is able to do now with legititmate coaching, blocking, running, and defense and its impossible for me to draw any other conclusion. Not saying we should have kept him because it was never going to work here, but in my view, if we weren't so sorry in every aspect of the game during the Jake years he could have taken us all kinds of places. Its pretty wretched that we were so inept we couldn't have done more with Jake at QB.

 

[Ryanwb]

You old fogies who are voting for Lomax as the best QB ever in Arizona need to take the blinders off.... the 80's are over. He didn't even play 1 complete season here

 

[Duckjake]

You old fogies who are voting for Lomax as the best QB ever in Arizona need to take the blinders off.... the 80's are over. He didn't even play 1 complete season here

Neither has anyone else.

 

[Duckjake]

yes but Tobin didn't inherit those problems and we weren't really "capped out" we were cashed out, we paid so much cash to Jake for his signing bonus, with 2 first rounders that year(Boston and Shelton) we didn't have the cash to come up with the signing bonuses that CEnters, Brown, Miller and all those other players with heart wanted after seeing how much cash we gave Jake. to my knowledge we were never over the cap in those years.

McGinnis is the worst pure football coach, but he didn't screw up the cap nearly as bad as Buddy did.

I still remember reading about the "dead" money that was keeping the Cards from being as active in FA as they'd like either late in Tobin's tenure or early in Macs. Most of it was money from Swann and Wadsworth IIRC. People were talking about having to include a large amount of money in our cap for guys who no longer were on the field.

Oh well maybe I can dig it out of the Azrepugnants archives.

 

[DCCardsFan]

Plummer never had the talent here he has in Denver but he played with Rob Moore, Frank Sanders, David Boston, all at the peak of their careers, it's not like he was throwing to Bryan Gilmore and Nate Poole for 6 years here.

David Boston was an OK player, but he couldn't hold a candle to Anquan. I saw Boston break about 3 open field tackles in 3 years. He benefited from being on a team that was almost always behind, and he ran 15-20 yard outs which Plummer could complete all day long, until some one jumped it and intercepted it. He had a lot of speed, was a decent route-runner, and could outjump some DBs, but was largely overrated, IMO (he had TERRIBLE hands, and just didn't have very good open-field moves). I have to say I anticipated what happened to Boston in SD and Miami. And that's not even mentioning how much of a chemistry set that guy was.

Franks Sanders was a great guy, but never a great receiver.

Rob Moore, for a couple years there, was borderline pro-bowler who didn't get much credit. He was the only legit solid receiver Plummer ever had, when he was healthy.

Plummer only had a slightly better running game than we have now, and a much worse defense, except in 98 when the D was decent.

As for the question, I'd have to pick Lomax, cause he had more statistically good seasons, but Plummer had the most memorable moments.

 

[Russ Smith]

I still remember reading about the "dead" money that was keeping the Cards from being as active in FA as they'd like either late in Tobin's tenure or early in Macs. Most of it was money from Swann and Wadsworth IIRC. People were talking about having to include a large amount of money in our cap for guys who no longer were on the field.

Oh well maybe I can dig it out of the Azrepugnants archives.

No that did happen, but we still weren't over the cap, it just impacted how much we had to spend and stay under the cap.

 

[Russ Smith]

David Boston was an OK player, but he couldn't hold a candle to Anquan. I saw Boston break about 3 open field tackles in 3 years. He benefited from being on a team that was almost always behind, and he ran 15-20 yard outs which Plummer could complete all day long, until some one jumped it and intercepted it. He had a lot of speed, was a decent route-runner, and could outjump some DBs, but was largely overrated, IMO (he had TERRIBLE hands, and just didn't have very good open-field moves). I have to say I anticipated what happened to Boston in SD and Miami. And that's not even mentioning how much of a chemistry set that guy was.
.

I agree I'd take Anquan hands down. Boston's 1600 yard year he led the NFL in YAC, but he was never the same, carried too much weight, got hurt, dropped too many balls etc.

Great talent that simply didn't get that the bigger he got the worse it was for him as a WR.

 

[Russ Smith]

For me, the story of Jake and the Cards was one of a very good QB on a team that was mediocre in 98, but almost entirely awful in every other year. I look at what that kid is able to do now with legititmate coaching, blocking, running, and defense and its impossible for me to draw any other conclusion. Not saying we should have kept him because it was never going to work here, but in my view, if we weren't so sorry in every aspect of the game during the Jake years he could have taken us all kinds of places. Its pretty wretched that we were so inept we couldn't have done more with Jake at QB.

Jake would agree with you, here's a comment he made yesterday:


Are the quarterback standards tougher in Denver than in other places?

"I don't think so," Plummer said. "I think every quarterback has to live up to expectations. Certain cities carry certain legacies. In Arizona, I had a lot on my plate, too, coming out of Arizona State. It's not like I have more here. The difference here is they do things here that help you out, by getting good players and getting into situations where the level of expectations for each player is set really high."

 

[RedViper]

Jake would agree with you, here's a comment he made yesterday:


Are the quarterback standards tougher in Denver than in other places?

"I don't think so," Plummer said. "I think every quarterback has to live up to expectations. Certain cities carry certain legacies. In Arizona, I had a lot on my plate, too, coming out of Arizona State. It's not like I have more here. The difference here is they do things here that help you out, by getting good players and getting into situations where the level of expectations for each player is set really high."

Russ, I give him a lot of credit for putting it the way he does. He could easily articulate that point the way that I am, but instead he's putting to focus on the good players he has around him in Denver (and letting us infer he did not have that here).

There were a ton of people, pretty much every fourth caller on the postgame show b/t 99 and 02, that would rant and rave and put all the blame on Jake. Most of the comments I've seen him make towards us are pretty diplomatic. The worst I've seen him say is something like, "the cards don't ever seem to take care of the little things that would get them to the next level" If he were a jackass like myself he'd be saying, "hey fourth caller, look at me now you SOB." Maybe in time, he will let it fly, but I'd like to think he still understands there are guys like us, who are going to stick with the BigRed until the bloody end. His full page ad, which I still have on my refridgerator, thanking the fans and all, causes me to believe he's still pulling for the Cardinals fans.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ, I give him a lot of credit for putting it the way he does. He could easily articulate that point the way that I am, but instead he's putting to focus on the good players he has around him in Denver (and letting us infer he did not have that here).

There were a ton of people, pretty much every fourth caller on the postgame show b/t 99 and 02, that would rant and rave and put all the blame on Jake. Most of the comments I've seen him make towards us are pretty diplomatic. The worst I've seen him say is something like, "the cards don't ever seem to take care of the little things that would get them to the next level" If he were a jackass like myself he'd be saying, "hey fourth caller, look at me now you SOB." Maybe in time, he will let it fly, but I'd like to think he still understands there are guys like us, who are going to stick with the BigRed until the bloody end. His full page ad, which I still have on my refridgerator, thanking the fans and all, causes me to believe he's still pulling for the Cardinals fans.

I would question what he means about expectations. He himself says all Denver asks of him is don't lose the game, in ARizona we paid him like a franchise QB, and expected him to play like it. Denver fans have high expectations because of Elway, but the TEAM is asking much less of him than we did.

As for the players around him, true, but he would have had Lomas Brown and Larry Centers a lot longer if he hadn't taken such a huge signing bonus. He was helping dig that hole himself.

CLearly Denver is a better situation than what he had here, nobody denies that, but he's also a much more mature person now who works a lot harder on his game there than he did here.

 

[RedViper]

I would question what he means about expectations. He himself says all Denver asks of him is don't lose the game, in ARizona we paid him like a franchise QB, and expected him to play like it. Denver fans have high expectations because of Elway, but the TEAM is asking much less of him than we did.

As for the players around him, true, but he would have had Lomas Brown and Larry Centers a lot longer if he hadn't taken such a huge signing bonus. He was helping dig that hole himself.

CLearly Denver is a better situation than what he had here, nobody denies that, but he's also a much more mature person now who works a lot harder on his game there than he did here.

I'd agree with that. The experience of going from conquering hero, coming off the airplane after Dallas in January 99, to QB of arguably the worst team in the league by 2000 must of given him perspective that most QB's in the NFL lack. And that perspective is useful in Denver. There's hardly a more spoiled lot than those Denver fans. Other than this year, I think there has mostly been an uneasy dissatisfaction with Plummer up there by the fans. This year has been different but if they get completely embarrassed by Indy again in the playoffs, which seems almost bound to happen, his position will still be tenuous. Thats how it is up there. I'm still proud of the kid though.

Your points about that bloated contract in 98 are also well taken. Definitely a disaster.