At least somebody in Dallas gets it

[George O'Brien]

Dallas Morning News:

"Steve Nash isn't the player he was in Dallas. He's better. This statement isn't made to minimize Nash's importance to the Mavericks all those years. It's not made to get under Mark Cuban's skin, although that's not a bad reason to do it. It's made because Nash has elevated his game to a level precious few have attained. The Phoenix guard is the first player in 25 years to average more than 19 points and 11 assists in the same season. The last was Earvin "Magic" Johnson."

"Denver coach George Karl has called Nash a genius on the court. It's hard to find a dissenting opinion. His feel for the game is unmatched. His ability to adjust the tempo, to force the mismatch and exploit it, to consistently make the right play in the clutch, is uncanny."

"Part of the whisper campaign waged after Cuban decided to let Nash walk in free agency was that the club didn't commit big money because it was convinced Nash's body would break down. It might not show up in the first year of his contract or even the second, but it would happen. "I think that was spin," Nash said." Dallas Morning News

 

[nowagimp]

Dallas Morning News:

Funny how the same talent evals didnt see Dampier with his knee injuries slowing him down. He so slow now that it takes him 4 seconds to cross the lane on D. What did they sign Dampier to, a 6 year contract?

 

[jibikao]

Well, the way I see it is any player is going to break down one day. If Mavs thinks Nash's contract is bad, what about Shaq's?? Heat will be burden with Shaq's HUGE contract when he gets old. Shaq is very injury prone right now and he IS getting old.

I guess you either want to win the championship now or never. I think the Suns did gamble on Nash, while the Mavs didn't want to gamble, but getting Dampier doesn't even seem like a brilliant idea.

 

[George O'Brien]

It is probably a mistake for us to evaluate the Mavs based on how they match up with the Suns. Dampier has not played well or at least not a consistently as they'd like, but he's still what they wanted: a big defensive guy who can rebound.

The challenge for oppsing coaches is similar to D'Antoni's. A coach with a big power guy has an advantage on offensive end but has trouble on the defensive end dealing with the Suns speed. What's worse, when coaches try to force the ball into their big guy they risk traps and steals.

The big problem the Mavs have is that their roster does not really allow for a small ball lineup. Even if Dampier and Diop were better, they'd still be too slow

 

[jibikao]

It is probably a mistake for us to evaluate the Mavs based on how they match up with the Suns. Dampier has not played well or at least not a consistently as they'd like, but he's still what they wanted: a big defensive guy who can rebound.

The challenge for oppsing coaches is similar to D'Antoni's. A coach with a big power guy has an advantage on offensive end but has trouble on the defensive end dealing with the Suns speed. What's worse, when coaches try to force the ball into their big guy they risk traps and steals.

The big problem the Mavs have is that their roster does not really allow for a small ball lineup. Even if Dampier and Diop were better, they'd still be too slow

That's the beautiful irony in this whole Nash VS Mark Cuban thing. I guess nobody really thought (not even me) that Nash + Suns can be this deadly. What was last year's goal? I believe last year's goal was to hopefully get to the playoffs but it turned out the team was just too devastating. Mavs's roster was made to handle more "generic" teams like Rocket and Spurs. Many teams are experiencing this huge mismatch when they play against us (ex: Heat). Bigger guys but less athletic are not that useful against Suns and teams have problem adjusting to us. We don't adjust to them normally. We just play our style and other teams fall into it most of the time.

I think Dampier is mentally weak and that is his biggest weakness. He will never be a great center IMO. He has this cry-baby face on him when he gets benched or scolded by either Dirk/AJ. He does contribute to the success but not nearly as much as his contract and what the Mavs was hoping for. It's a disappointment, nevertheless. Dampier is not even starting now.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I really can't blame Cuban for going in a different direction. He gave Dirk/Nash/Finley plenty of time to get him into the Finals and they couldn't do it. Looks like a dumb move now, but I think Cuban's refusal to match the Suns' offer has motivated Nash into becoming the player that he currently is.

 

[nowagimp]

I really can't blame Cuban for going in a different direction. He gave Dirk/Nash/Finley plenty of time to get him into the Finals and they couldn't do it. Looks like a dumb move now, but I think Cuban's refusal to match the Suns' offer has motivated Nash into becoming the player that he currently is.

Of course you can blame Mark Cuban, its silly to say that Nash didnt deserve the contract. Nash is the type of player that needs the right players around him to win. I also dont think the Cuban rejection made Nash the player he is. Nash had a bunch of perimeter players(Finley and Nowitski), no power players or even post defenders to guard against being pounded inside(hence the acquisition of Dampier, a DUD in that area). Think of all the times Nash drove inside and just dumped to ball to Amare, KT or Boris inside for the easy finish. There was no one on that Mavs team to do that, pick and roll, move to the hoop, recieve the pass, score inside. There were no FINISHERS on that Mavs team. That Mavs team was also horrific defensively, both Nowitski and Finley were no better than average defenders and it got worse from there. Who, on that team would guard the opposing PF? As far as running the floor, compare that team to the suns and I'd say they may get transition baskets but I dont think they beat anybody down the floor. Admittedly, the D'Antoni system is a contributing factor, definitely more of a factor than the Cuban slight.

Mark Cuban is an involved owner who has limited basketball evaluation skills. If he can take the credit for the Josh Howards, he can take the blame for the blunder of letting Nash go. I shudder to think what Steve Nash could do with guys like Marquis Daniels, Josh Howard, Devon Harris, and Jerry Stackhouse running the wings on the break, with Nowitski standing at the 3 pt line. THANK YOU Mark Cuban for being arrogant enough to let your ignorance get the best of you.

 

[jibikao]

I think motivation plays a major key though.

When Nash signed the contract with Suns, he got trashed bad. Nobody really thought Nash could succeed and many Nash-haters were waiting for the "Nash breakdown" any chance they have. The media couldn't wait to start this Cuban VS Nash, more so than Dirk VS Nash.

Nash also started an intense workout during off-season to keep in shape so he doesn't run out of gas in later part of the season. I think it all shows that Nash has been motivated a lot more now.

This season is even worse. The reigning MVP lost Amare and I am sure 99% of the doubters or haters of last year's MVP voting can't wait until Nash fails and declares how Amare is the only reason why Nash was the MVP last season. There is even more motivation!

I see more determination in Nash when he plays now. He is quite a different player now than he was in Mavs. When Nash was in Mavs, he didn't have the full control and confidence. Nelson isn't a control freak but he is quite strict about what they can do and what cannot do. In Suns, D'Antoni basically just tells Nash to run the floor. He gives suggestions and really nothing else. To some degree you can say Nash is the product of the system (small ball) but you need a great point guard to run the show and run so well to the point that the coach doesn't really instruct him. And Basketball is a team game = a game that requires a system to work.

Another thing that really bothered me when Nash was in Mavs is Finely. Oh god, I really dislike him. He always took the clutch shots and almost always missed! Then there is Dirk, the Mavs' franchise, player who didn't like going inside at all. Then you've got Bradley who couldn't even catch a pass inside, let alone finish it. Josh Howard and Daniel were rookies and did I mention A. Walker?? Oh, what a mess!

 

[nowagimp]

I think motivation plays a major key though.

When Nash signed the contract with Suns, he got trashed bad. Nobody really thought Nash could succeed and many Nash-haters were waiting for the "Nash breakdown" any chance they have. The media couldn't wait to start this Cuban VS Nash, more so than Dirk VS Nash.

Nash also started an intense workout during off-season to keep in shape so he doesn't run out of gas in later part of the season. I think it all shows that Nash has been motivated a lot more now.

This season is even worse. The reigning MVP lost Amare and I am sure 99% of the doubters or haters of last year's MVP voting can't wait until Nash fails and declares how Amare is the only reason why Nash was the MVP last season. There is even more motivation!

I see more determination in Nash when he plays now. He is quite a different player now than he was in Mavs. When Nash was in Mavs, he didn't have the full control and confidence. Nelson isn't a control freak but he is quite strict about what they can do and what cannot do. In Suns, D'Antoni basically just tells Nash to run the floor. He gives suggestions and really nothing else. To some degree you can say Nash is the product of the system (small ball) but you need a great point guard to run the show and run so well to the point that the coach doesn't really instruct him. And Basketball is a team game = a game that requires a system to work.

Another thing that really bothered me when Nash was in Mavs is Finely. Oh god, I really dislike him. He always took the clutch shots and almost always missed! Then there is Dirk, the Mavs' franchise, player who didn't like going inside at all. Then you've got Bradley who couldn't even catch a pass inside, let alone finish it. Josh Howard and Daniel were rookies and did I mention A. Walker?? Oh, what a mess!

Nash has, since his college days always been told what he can't do. Only santa clara would offer him a scholarship. Im sure he has been motivated in this way for a long time. So long that perhaps its not as much as it used to be. I think that now his motivation is mostly winning. He has also been very agressive staying in shape for years. He does follow a new regimen, but I think he has always stayed fit playing other sports. Remember the beginning of the season when the parts to the suns didnt fit, everyone was saying the suns are done and "trade Nash"(this is even some board members ID, "tradeNash"). Well the pieces fit better as the system was practiced, as the year progressed. Nash was able to "run the machine", not because he was suddenly motivated, but because the pieces started to work together. The first ten games of the year were not poorly played because he was "not motivated".

The suns led the NBA in fast break points in Nashs MVP season not because Nash was motivated, but because he had GREAT finishers on the break: Marion, Amare, JJ, Q. He NEVER had those kind of finishers on the Mavs. He NEVER had a first rate low post option until Amare. As a point guard, you cannot really stretch the defense without some kind of inside presence. He got all those things with the suns that he never had with the Mavs. This year the suns, in absence of a real low post option, really work player spacing to the max. It is truly amazing, I doubt any other point could do this, work the spacing for open shots without a real low post option. Nash has gotten better with the suns, but, dont underestimate the huge difference in the supporting cast and the SYSTEM.


Steve Nash just doesnt seem like an "I'll show them" guy, but like a guy who really enjoys what he does, he doesnt seem to have that "chip on his shoulder"(see KJ, Barkley). He rarely takes credit, preferring to give that to his teammates. This is not the personality of a person that needs to be validated (to show them). He's like a relentless hockey player, probably doesnt need any motivation to play hard. For Nash to be effective he needs the pieces, and the pieces must pass the ball freely(unselfish players) to set and re-set the offense. He now has those pieces, and more.

 

[George O'Brien]

I have no doubt Nash wanted to show he could play well, but I agree that the teammates he has are better suited to his skills (and vice versa). Marion needs Nash, but Nash without Marion is not nearly as effective.

 

[JuevAZD]

The Phoenix guard is the first player in 25 years to average more than 19 points and 11 assists in the same season. The last was Earvin "Magic" Johnson

Except for Kevin Johnson who did it in 88-89(20.4, 12.2) and 89-90(22.5, 11.4). Sheesh, you'd think a writer for a major paper would do their research...

http://www.nba.com/history/players/kevjohnson_stats.html

 

[newfan101]

The Phoenix guard is the first player in 25 years to average more than 19 points and 11 assists in the same season. The last was Earvin "Magic" Johnson

Except for Kevin Johnson who did it in 88-89(20.4, 12.2) and 89-90(22.5, 11.4). Sheesh, you'd think a writer for a major paper would do their research...

No doubt. He also forgot Isiah, who did it in 1983-84 (21.3, 11.1) and 84-85 (21.2, 13.9).

 

[JuevAZD]

No doubt. He also forgot Isiah, who did it in 1983-84 (21.3, 11.1) and 84-85 (21.2, 13.9).

Yup, I could not remember if it was Thomas or Stockton. Wow, Thomas in 84-85 was pretty unbelievable.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

This is the bottom line...

Dallas is a very good team and i think they COULD (although if a gun was to my head i would go SA) take out San Antonio in a seven game series. But i just dont think the Dallas can beat the Suns with their team constituted the way it is........and it comes down to it...

Dallas goes as far as Dirk Nowitzki carries them....

and we have Shawn Marion....the one player that if you had to create a cyborg that could keep up with Dirk, he would be it. That just makes it a terrible matchup for him as there is no way Dirk has 4 Big time games against the Suns in any playoff series with a healthy Marion playing.

In fact if anybody nationally had some balls, they would start the Marion for defensive player of the year bandwagon. Since they won't I will:

12.3 Rebounds a game
1.98 Steals
1.90 Blocks

and he plays in a system where he is running up and down the floor at a faster pace than anyone else....

I'm tired of hearing about Ben Wallace, Ron Artest, and Bruce Bowen

is anyone more dominatingly versatile in his game defensively.......

 

[tobiazz]

In fact if anybody nationally had some balls, they would start the Marion for defensive player of the year bandwagon. Since they won't I will:

12.3 Rebounds a game
1.98 Steals
1.90 Blocks

Wallace's numbers
12.2 Rebounds a game
1.69 Steals
2.20 Blocks

I think Marion should be runner up, at the least, but Wallace's numbers are slightly better. He basically trades 0.3 steals for 0.3 blocks which are more important. And he probably affects many more shots and offensive schemes. That said, if you consider that Marion has about 30 pounds less muscle than Wallace and defends better players (though Wallace is always the final line of defense) I don't see how you couldn't pick Marion.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Of course you can blame Mark Cuban, its silly to say that Nash didnt deserve the contract. Nash is the type of player that needs the right players around him to win. I also dont think the Cuban rejection made Nash the player he is. Nash had a bunch of perimeter players(Finley and Nowitski), no power players or even post defenders to guard against being pounded inside(hence the acquisition of Dampier, a DUD in that area). Think of all the times Nash drove inside and just dumped to ball to Amare, KT or Boris inside for the easy finish. There was no one on that Mavs team to do that, pick and roll, move to the hoop, recieve the pass, score inside. There were no FINISHERS on that Mavs team. That Mavs team was also horrific defensively, both Nowitski and Finley were no better than average defenders and it got worse from there. Who, on that team would guard the opposing PF? As far as running the floor, compare that team to the suns and I'd say they may get transition baskets but I dont think they beat anybody down the floor. Admittedly, the D'Antoni system is a contributing factor, definitely more of a factor than the Cuban slight.

Of course it's easy now to say Nash deserves ihs contract but at the time nearly everybody thought we over paid for him. His last year in Dallas he was surrounded by Dirk, a pre-injury Finley, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker, Josh Howard, and Marquise Daniels. The team we're currently running out there with Diaw and Tim Thomas manning the frontcourt certainly isn't a more physical oinside team than that squad.

Nash had plenty of talent around him in Dallas to succeed but Dallas never amounted to much in the playoffs. Some of that falls on Nash's shoulders as he was a big part of those team's defensive struggles. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that Nash resurrected his career in Phoenix, all evidence points to that being the case.

 

[George O'Brien]

They reward the scoring leader and the defensive leader, but "all round play" isn't unless it's through the MVP.

Guys like Marion and Diaw are not given the credit they deserve because they aren't specialists. Ben Wallace is a specialist and a very very good one. Same with Bruck Bowen. If defense is the only subject under discussion, they may be better. But they don't have the same kind of impact with the rest of their game.

 

[nowagimp]

Of course it's easy now to say Nash deserves ihs contract but at the time nearly everybody thought we over paid for him. His last year in Dallas he was surrounded by Dirk, a pre-injury Finley, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker, Josh Howard, and Marquise Daniels. The team we're currently running out there with Diaw and Tim Thomas manning the frontcourt certainly isn't a more physical oinside team than that squad.

Nash had plenty of talent around him in Dallas to succeed but Dallas never amounted to much in the playoffs. Some of that falls on Nash's shoulders as he was a big part of those team's defensive struggles. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that Nash resurrected his career in Phoenix, all evidence points to that being the case.

First a pre injury, high mileage Finley, Anton Walker(??? are you kidding, a horrible gunner from 3, at 27% FG's).

Second, Josh Howard(8ppg, 24 mins) and Marquis Daniels(8ppg, 18 mins), were young undeveloped players, like JJ 3 years ago. Finley shot 44% FGs and did not score in the paint(5.3 3's/game), being too old to take his man off the dribble. Compare the Mavs with the minutes: Walker, Jamison, Nowitski, Finley to Amare, Matrix, and JJ??? Who were the finishers for the Mavs on the break?

third: does the coach take any credit or blame for the offensive game plan? They had 5 guys taking >3.9 3's a game with only Nash and Finley shooting over 35%. Did Nash set the game plan in Dallas? The Mavs played alot of one-on-one(one-on-gun).

fourth: Who among these guys was an unselfish player? Unselfish players are needed in the passing game. Maybe Finley.

Fifth: to hold Nash responsible for defensive issues of Walker, and Nowitski and no center is silly. Talent evaluators must pick the pieces, this is not the job of point guards. The use of a tweener(cant guard a 3, 4 or 5) like Nowitski demands that a good defenders be present( a la Larry Bird) to compensate.

The Mavs organization still has talent balance issues, playing the young guys(Harris, Terry) at the point in the playoffs looks tricky.

Organizations must take resposibility for what they put on the floor and the Mavericks have layed a number of eggs with their player evals. They couldnt succeed with J Kidd, S. Nash at the point, then what the heck is the problem?? Paying Nash 10 mil per year for 14.4ppg, 8.8 asst, was similar statistically to Baron Davis, Andre Miller, Sam Cassel or or probably two thirds of all the points with similar stats. Not such a reach for a guy, Cuban, who paid finley 15 million/year for 16ppg, fading D. I'll bet Walker also made more than Nash on that team, a JOKE!

 

[George O'Brien]

Nash's last year in Dallas was with a rather disjointed team with a lot of new faces and difficult personalities. A better measure of his value was the season before when the Mavs won 60 games and got to WCF where they lost in part due to Dirk being injured.

The 2002-03 Mavs main problem was a "toughness" (they were outrebounded by over 3 boards per game), but overall they had a very impressive team. They averaged 103 ppg and gave up only 95.2 ppg. They shot only 45.3% (38.1% for three) but held their opponents to 43.8% shooting and just 34.0% for three. They blocked 5.5 per game and forced 16 turnovers a game.

Every move they made the next summer looked on paper to be an improvement. They dramatically improved their rebounding and scored more, but their defense regressed dramatically. Opponents shot 45.9% from the field and 36.3% for three. Offensively, the Mavs three point shooting dropped from 38.1% to 34.8%. The net result was a team that won only 52 games after winning 60 the year before and a first round defeat to the Kings.

Did Steve get blamed for the decline? Perhaps. The fact that the Mavs drafted a PG with their first pick that summer suggests they might have been anticipating him either leaving or being traded. In any case, the Suns are happy about Cuban's blunder.

 

[playstation]

when you mentioned Dirk as a tweener, i got to thinking. Boris is kind of a bizzarro tweener. dirk is a 4 who plays like a 3: not physical enough to guard 4's, not quick enough for 3's. boris is a 5 who plays like a ???: but he is physical enough to play 5's and quick enough to play 3's,and occasionally 1's.

 

[nowagimp]

when you mentioned Dirk as a tweener, i got to thinking. Boris is kind of a bizzarro tweener. dirk is a 4 who plays like a 3: not physical enough to guard 4's, not quick enough for 3's. boris is a 5 who plays like a ???: but he is physical enough to play 5's and quick enough to play 3's,and occasionally 1's.

Boris is a tweener, but not defensively like Dirk. Dirk cant guard a 3, 4, or a 5, while Boris guards them all, and also a 1 or a 2 once in a while. Last night he guarded Chris Paul for several plays, and prevented the penetration. Boris Diaw is a player whose value cannot be determined by conventional ppg stats. He outplayed David West on offense and also played great defense.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Wallace's numbers
12.2 Rebounds a game
1.69 Steals
2.20 Blocks

I think Marion should be runner up, at the least, but Wallace's numbers are slightly better. He basically trades 0.3 steals for 0.3 blocks which are more important. And he probably affects many more shots and offensive schemes. That said, if you consider that Marion has about 30 pounds less muscle than Wallace and defends better players (though Wallace is always the final line of defense) I don't see how you couldn't pick Marion.

Actually if you do the difference between all categories

Marion +.1 Rebounding
Marion +.29 Steals
Wallace +.30 Blocks

They are at exactly the same numbers.....and wallace has better defenders around him in a system that is more conducive to playing grind it out defense. And Marion expends 200% more energy on offense than Wallace. I'm not saying its a slam dunk (no pun intended) but shouldn't this guy get more love than he does when it comes to this vote. Voting for Wallace is easy, but hes a specialist. Marion does it all.....

If MArion doesnt make first team all defense and third team all NBA im going to be pissed.....

 

[Chaplin]

Name a small forward that has been better than Shawn Marion this season. Third-team all-NBA? More like First-team, at WORST, 2nd-team.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Name a small forward that has been better than Shawn Marion this season. Third-team all-NBA? More like First-team, at WORST, 2nd-team.

they'll name bron as first team sf. marion should make second team this year.

 

[nowagimp]

Actually if you do the difference between all categories

Marion +.1 Rebounding
Marion +.29 Steals
Wallace +.30 Blocks

They are at exactly the same numbers.....and wallace has better defenders around him in a system that is more conducive to playing grind it out defense. And Marion expends 200% more energy on offense than Wallace. I'm not saying its a slam dunk (no pun intended) but shouldn't this guy get more love than he does when it comes to this vote. Voting for Wallace is easy, but hes a specialist. Marion does it all.....

If MArion doesnt make first team all defense and third team all NBA im going to be pissed.....

Very good points by AF here: " Wallace has better (help) defenders ..."

I'll go with Marion as his D is often straight up one-on-one, with less help than Wallace gets. I'll also take the steals over the blocks as they define a possession change, blocks do not, neccesarily. Also, as AF states, Marion plays big offensively, so it is amazing that he has the energy to do it all, while Big Ben saves his energy for D. Shawns biggest recognition problem is that it takes a knowledgable basketball fan to appreciate his total impact on the game. Imagine that several posters wanted to trade shawn straight up for TMAC this past off-season. That would have been a "Cubanesque" move.