Atlanta @ Phoenix - Game Thread - Friday Feb. 9, 2007 - 7:00 pm

elindholm

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Another thing is Shawn Marion just isn't that good of a defensive player. Yeah, he plays against everyone from PGs to PFs but getting torched by all of them equally does not make you a good defender. The 'Marion for Defensive POY' campaign headed by ******* Gambo is laughable at best.

Unfortunately, this is right on target. In fact there are quite a limited number of players in the league that Marion defends well.
 

msdundee

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Even EJ alluded to him already fouling out of 5 games this year. Very un-Marion-like. Something is definitely wrong.

Whatever number EJ used, it was career foul-outs. Marion's fouled out just twice this year, both times within the last week -- Utah 2/3 and Atlanta last night. But the two games in between he had 4 and 5 PFs and the technical he got the other night was also unlike him. It's uncharacteristic and you're right, it's not good.
 

sly fly

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Whatever number EJ used, it was career foul-outs. Marion's fouled out just twice this year, both times within the last week -- Utah 2/3 and Atlanta last night. But the two games in between he had 4 and 5 PFs and the technical he got the other night was also unlike him. It's uncharacteristic and you're right, it's not good.

Point taken. But, you could hear the concern in EJ's tone when talking about Marion. He's usually reserved in judgement, but you could sense EJ was a little frustrated.

Some of you expect Marion to be the best lock-down defender since Scottie Pippen. Not sure where those expectations come from? Marion's strength is his ability to be "active and disruptive" for 48 minutes... without being the focal point on both ends of the floor.

The fact is, Marion goes through stretches like this every single year. He'll snap out of his funk, get his legs back, and hopefully make a big impact in the playoffs this year (cross your fingers).

- Also, wonder what Raja Bell was alluding to in his comments (re: wanting to say something, but was refraining from doing so)?

- It's definitely understandable PHX being a bit tired, both mentally and physically. The good news is that Mike D doesn't buy into that. He's as intense and hard core as they come, and I'm sure he'll get the message across.
 

msdundee

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Some of you expect Marion to be the best lock-down defender since Scottie Pippen. Not sure where those expectations come from? Marion's strength is his ability to be "active and disruptive" for 48 minutes... without being the focal point on both ends of the floor.

- Also, wonder what Raja Bell was alluding to in his comments (re: wanting to say something, but was refraining from doing so)?

No, the Suns don't have any one player who falls into the category of lock-down defender. They have Marion and Raja and Jr.'s good one-on-one defense when he's in. Raja probably fits the "disruptive" description best. The strongest defense we have goes on the tough assignments, players like Kobe, Melo, Ray Allen, Arenas, whoever's hot -- last night JJ -- the shooters you know are going to get theirs and the best you can hope is to slow them down. Both Marion and Raja are frequently out-sized. If they're capable of 50 and you hold them to 25 it's not a bad job. The other elements of defense beyond the one-on-one come into play as well, steals, rebounds, etc., and that has to be factored in. I don't think Shawn's a lock-down defender but I don't think he's as sorry as most here like to claim, and neither does the media.

Wasn't able to watch the post-game interviews last night so I don't know the context of Raja's statement. Given the events of the fourth quarter, he might have been refraining from comment on the officiating.

At any rate, even though a home loss to the Hawks was disappointing, they haven't done all that badly without Nash. They finished it off in Denver without him and won in Portland without him and those were B2B on the road. Last night was a let-down but I don't think the sky's falling yet.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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i'm not freaking out about the loss, but i think it's a bad loss. what i am freaking out about is coach d.

this is the third year in his system. every year it has been the same thing. the team cannot play well (note i said "well" not "at all") without nash. and yeah, you take the best player away from any team for a stretch and they're gonna struggle. but you take nash away for a few minutes in a game and we struggle. what does that indicate to me? it indicates that no one (NO ONE) can effectively drive dantoni's system but nash. when we substitute for nash in a game we stink. when he's out for a few games we stink. doesn't matter who we've tried to plug into his spot the results are always the same. what does that say to me? dantoni is inflexible. he can't realize that he needs nash to drive to his system. if he did realize that then he'd implement a different offense, with offensive sets, that work for players that require structure to succeed. nash is unique in his abilities. dantoni may recognize it, but he hasn't taken action to take advantage of his other players' skills by putting THEM in the position to succeed when nash is out. that is the damnation of dantoni.
 

sly fly

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Per AZ Central...

For the rest of the game, they were outhustled and outexecuted. Raja Bell lamented the team's inability to follow the game plan and in-game instructions.

"They wanted it more than we did," Bell said. When asked why that would be, "I don't want to say what I want to say."
 

green machine

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I wouldn't go that far, I think it's a lot to do with Nash not playing as around 8-10 of Marion's points per game are a result of him ctaching the ball and putting in the hoop thanks to Nash. Another thing is Shawn Marion just isn't that good of a defensive player. Yeah, he plays against everyone from PGs to PFs but getting torched by all of them equally does not make you a good defender. The 'Marion for Defensive POY' campaign headed by ******* Gambo is laughable at best.

:notworthy

I totally agree with all this.

Marion hasn't been showing up lately because he just can't generate offense on his own. Thus, take out Nash, and Marion is lost.
 

msdundee

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Per AZ Central...

For the rest of the game, they were outhustled and outexecuted. Raja Bell lamented the team's inability to follow the game plan and in-game instructions.

"They wanted it more than we did," Bell said. When asked why that would be, "I don't want to say what I want to say."

Okay, I hadn't looked at azcentral yet today but it sounds like he and D'Antoni were both talking about the general ho-hum play that was pretty obvious. Amare even came out slow in the first half, who knows why. Didn't realize Boris tweaked his back in Portland. No matter who they're playing or what the situation, games like that make you want to throw things at the TV. Might have been a good time for a fiery half-time rant from somebody.

If we're looking for a positive to take out of that one, Banks did look like a player. If so, he's picking a good time to finally "get it."

And I still hope Nash doesn't come back too soon, but it can't be soon enough.
 

Lorenzo

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:notworthy

I totally agree with all this.

Marion hasn't been showing up lately because he just can't generate offense on his own. Thus, take out Nash, and Marion is lost.
I think marion is a good jump shooter.....he can get hot. I think he is great in transition. He is a good defender....not a lockdown defender. Marion does get a lot of points because of nash. In fact it's clear that without nash or diaw, he has struggled. He has also disappeard in both of the previous playoff series that the suns lost. He had a good game in that first game vs. dallas, but when the transition points were limited, so was marion.
 

Errntknght

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i'm not freaking out about the loss, but i think it's a bad loss. what i am freaking out about is coach d.

this is the third year in his system. every year it has been the same thing. the team cannot play well (note i said "well" not "at all") without nash. and yeah, you take the best player away from any team for a stretch and they're gonna struggle. but you take nash away for a few minutes in a game and we struggle. what does that indicate to me? it indicates that no one (NO ONE) can effectively drive dantoni's system but nash. when we substitute for nash in a game we stink. when he's out for a few games we stink. doesn't matter who we've tried to plug into his spot the results are always the same. what does that say to me? dantoni is inflexible. he can't realize that he needs nash to drive to his system. if he did realize that then he'd implement a different offense, with offensive sets, that work for players that require structure to succeed. nash is unique in his abilities. dantoni may recognize it, but he hasn't taken action to take advantage of his other players' skills by putting THEM in the position to succeed when nash is out. that is the damnation of dantoni.


Wow, an ally from an unlikely direction!

I have to give D'Antoni his due this year as many of the things I've moaned about since he took over have improved significantly - off ball screens and movement along the baseline, for example. Heck, Raja and Leandro were awful in their offball movement before this year and this year they've become quite good - even James Jones has improved a bit. I don't know that it is D'Antoni's doing but since he got the blame before, he gets the credit now. (I wouldn't be shocked to learn that Nash was responsible.)

Even in this game (Atlanta) I saw something I liked - he had Amare operating more from the 'elbow' than down low, where he was in the Portland game. EJ mentioned that in the broadcast, saying that one effect was that it was harder to double team him though I'm inclined to think it is more that they don't have a way to get him the ball down low when Nash isn't playing.

But I do agree that D'A is missing the boat by not using some set plays when Nash isn't on the floor. In prior years he claimed that they did have a playbook with set plays though I haven't heard that from him this year. In any case, the plays don't do any good if you don't work on them enough to be able to execute them.

During the summer when someone asked me what I thought the coaches should do to help Marcus Banks succeed as a backup PG, I said the main thing would be to put in a number of set plays for him to run, assuming he wasn't a master of the P&R. The same thing they should have done long ago to help Barbosa succeed. In fact, I still think it would be beneficial to him. The other thing would be to give Marcus a slot in the rotation and stick with it through thick and thin. To his credit, I believe D'Antoni wanted to to the latter but he just couldn't make himself follow through - and, admittedly, it would have been very hard to do.

In retrospect, I'd add another thing - coach the heck out of him on defense. I didn't foresee a problem in that area with all the hype we heard about his defensive ability. The reality proved to be that he has the skills to be a good defender but they're not sharpened to the point he actually defends very well.
 

SactownSunsFan

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I've thought about it, and I've somehow convinced myself that the Suns lost this game to help keep Atlanta out of bottom three status...

at least that's what I've been telling myself to help me sleep at night.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Wow, an ally from an unlikely direction!

I have to give D'Antoni his due this year as many of the things I've moaned about since he took over have improved significantly - off ball screens and movement along the baseline, for example. Heck, Raja and Leandro were awful in their offball movement before this year and this year they've become quite good - even James Jones has improved a bit. I don't know that it is D'Antoni's doing but since he got the blame before, he gets the credit now. (I wouldn't be shocked to learn that Nash was responsible.)

Even in this game (Atlanta) I saw something I liked - he had Amare operating more from the 'elbow' than down low, where he was in the Portland game. EJ mentioned that in the broadcast, saying that one effect was that it was harder to double team him though I'm inclined to think it is more that they don't have a way to get him the ball down low when Nash isn't playing.

But I do agree that D'A is missing the boat by not using some set plays when Nash isn't on the floor. In prior years he claimed that they did have a playbook with set plays though I haven't heard that from him this year. In any case, the plays don't do any good if you don't work on them enough to be able to execute them.

During the summer when someone asked me what I thought the coaches should do to help Marcus Banks succeed as a backup PG, I said the main thing would be to put in a number of set plays for him to run, assuming he wasn't a master of the P&R. The same thing they should have done long ago to help Barbosa succeed. In fact, I still think it would be beneficial to him. The other thing would be to give Marcus a slot in the rotation and stick with it through thick and thin. To his credit, I believe D'Antoni wanted to to the latter but he just couldn't make himself follow through - and, admittedly, it would have been very hard to do.

In retrospect, I'd add another thing - coach the heck out of him on defense. I didn't foresee a problem in that area with all the hype we heard about his defensive ability. The reality proved to be that he has the skills to be a good defender but they're not sharpened to the point he actually defends very well.

i really find myself flip-flopping on coach d a lot during the past year. i really love the fact that he returned the free-flowing beauty of offense to the nba. i think he's tailored a terrific offense to his best players and has done a fairly good job of not only taking advantage of mismatches, but actually creating them with out-of-the-box logic.

but his stubborness regarding timeouts, his system, and young players really vexes me. i honestly want him to succeed. i also like his attitude with both the media, public, and the team. but i question whether he has the ability to adapt enough to continue to grow as a coach. and that same stubborn streak worries me even more in terms of his playing our GM (which admittedly, i don't think he even wants to do).
 

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