AZ Republic: Changes in store for offensive line

[Mitch]

I disagree.. Ross struggled even as a frontside tackle, and don't have the feet for playing tackle. Davis is way more capable than Ross playing LT.

I don't buy the Tommie Harris argument. If Big had been moved inside, sure the pressure from Harris would have decreased, BUT that would have left Ross with Alex Brown I've watched the Bears in two other games and Brown has been the best defensive player in both games. Big totally neutralized him. Brown would have killed Ross.

OK..the obvious rebuttal is, have Edge chip Brown and slip into a pattern (OR...have the TE double Brown and run a delay)...BUT...if Harris blows up the middle of the line, as he did, which was perfectly chronicled by the reporter who astutely pointed out how Wells was getting manhandled by Harris every play down the stretch, the offense has virtually no chance of running the ball with any consistency.

You guys just don't get it...you build from the INSIDE out. If the INSIDE gets blown up, you are toast...you have NO chance...and that's why the Cardinals are 1-6. Go ahead...keep thinking Davis is better off at LT for THIS team...go ahead...but don't keep whining each week about losing because this, more than anything else is why the Cardinals are losing and will continue to lose until they figure it out. Liweinski, Wells...even Milford Brown...have opponents licking their chops...and once teams blow up the middle of the line, which enables them to rush like maniacs from the edge (see Derrick Burgess)...they have gotten the advantage they need to beat the Cardinals...it's that simple.

 

[Mitch]

I think he was agreeing with you, Mitch.......

Sorry, dreamcastrocks.

 

[vinnymac]

i like lutui at rg and wells playing rt. i believe this will make some holes for james

 

[Buckybird]

If Wells plays tackle, write this down...#7 will get hurt or knocked out. I hope
not, but fear the move. May not happen in the GB game but it will happen!!!

Go 's

 

[az1965]

The Bears 4th Q play by play breakdown had Wells defenders flying by him. I just hope Matt doesn't get hurt.

 

[kerouac9]

What part of "teams aren't switching their outside pass rushers against the left-handed quarterbacks" is hard to understand? Watch the game on Sunday, and you're going to see Leonard Davis playing against KGB, the pure pass-rushing end who normally attacks the opposition's "blindside".

Flip over to the Falcons' game, and you'll find that Justin Smith will be chasing the southpaw Michael Vick from the front side while he's usually running at the QB's blindside. Wait yet another week, and you'll find that Dallas isn't going to flip it's linebackers just because Mark Brunell is a lefty.

It's exceedingly rare for teams to switch the sides of their pass rushers simply because the quarterback has a new blindside. Never in the history of the NFL (as far as I know) has a team flipped their best offensive lineman from one side to another. Remember who Jacksonville's best offensive lineman used to be? Tony Boselli. Do you remember what position he used to play? That's right, left tackle. Do you remember who his quarterback was? Mark Brunell, a lefty.

Notice that Chris Samuels and Jon Jansen didn't switch sides when Brunell replaced Ramsey, and they're not going to switch when Jason Campbell inevitably succeeds Mark Brunell. Why don't they make the switch?

Because teams generally put their best pass rushers on the offense's left side. The strongside defensive end is generally larger than the weakside end. Julius Peppers is two inches taller and thirteen pounds heavier than Mike Rucker. Patrick Kearney is one inch taller and seventten pounds heavier than John Abraham.

Please please please please please stop repeating that we need to do something to protect Matt Leinart's "blindside" as if it were more important that the side that the best pass rusher is going to be coming from. It wasn't important to get rid of Ross because he was protecting the blindside. It was time to get rid of Ross because he stunk up the joint. It's unclear whether or not replacing him with the next worse player on the offensive line is going to help.

You need a bigger and stronger player on the right side of the offensive line because almost always the defensive end lining up over there is bigger and stronger, though not always faster. If Reggie Wells was getting overpowered by Under Tackles like Tank Johnson (6'3", 300 lbs), let's see how he handles a guy with a little more of a step on him in Aaron Kampmann.

Ross needed to go because he had bad feet and was slow to get into his drop. But it's yet to be seen if Wells is strong enough to lock onto stronger LDEs who are much faster than the DTs that have overpowered him all season long.

What I do think is that joining Bigg and Lutui on the left side of the line may make it easier to rush there. Whatever Bigg was able to do in run blocking was overshadowed by how much Wells sucked in that area. Hopefully Bigg and Deuce will be able to clear some seams for Edge.

 

[BigRedArk]

Just curious K9 what would be your starting lineup on the OL with what we have?

 

[Young Card]

Right now our line should look like this:

LT: Davis
LG: Lutui
C: Leckey
RG: Ross
RT: Wells

No one can play LT better than Davis and I shudder to think how most of the other players would fare. Davis may not be great but he is not bad and leauges above anyone who would replace him.

 

[kerouac9]

Just curious K9 what would be your starting lineup on the OL with what we have?

LT - L. Davis (6'6", 366)
LG - D. Lutui (6'4", 338)
C - R. Wells (6'4", 318)
RG - M. Brown (6'5", 330)
RT - C. Liwienski (6'5", 321)

I'd like to put Gorin or Wells out on the right end, but I'm going to just admit that we're not passing to the tight end and maybe put Fred Wakefield (6'7", 319) next to the RT. Wells can function at center because he's not going to be asked to block DTs one-on-one and can either help Brown or Lutui or move up to the next level and try and lock on a linebacker.

Just tell the offensive line to push forward and open creases for Edge to hit. I think that Leckey is just too small to start in the middle at 287, and while Step is big enough at 312, he's not big enough when he's next to an undersized guard in Wells and then asked to immediately block at DT who's already overpowered Wells off the snap.

The real tragedy is that Elton Brown apparently decided that he doesn't want to play football. Being able to squeeze any center between two guys tipping the scales at 340 would have been great. Instead, he's going to be an early cut by whomever comes in here after Green. Total wasted pick.

David Stewart, taken two picks later, is starting at RT for the Titans. Jerome Mathis is a Pro Bowl returner for the Texans.

 

[BigRedArk]

LT - L. Davis (6'6", 366)
LG - D. Lutui (6'4", 338)
C - R. Wells (6'4", 318)
RG - M. Brown (6'5", 330)
RT - C. Liwienski (6'5", 321)

I'd like to put Gorin or Wells out on the right end, but I'm going to just admit that we're not passing to the tight end and maybe put Fred Wakefield (6'7", 319) next to the RT. Wells can function at center because he's not going to be asked to block DTs one-on-one and can either help Brown or Lutui or move up to the next level and try and lock on a linebacker.

Just tell the offensive line to push forward and open creases for Edge to hit. I think that Leckey is just too small to start in the middle at 287, and while Step is big enough at 312, he's not big enough when he's next to an undersized guard in Wells and then asked to immediately block at DT who's already overpowered Wells off the snap.

The real tragedy is that Elton Brown apparently decided that he doesn't want to play football. Being able to squeeze any center between two guys tipping the scales at 340 would have been great. Instead, he's going to be an early cut by whomever comes in here after Green. Total wasted pick.

David Stewart, taken two picks later, is starting at RT for the Titans. Jerome Mathis is a Pro Bowl returner for the Texans.

Thought provoking stuff K9 thanks. Elton Brown is a real tragedy. Drafting is art and luck perhaps. Maybe Parcells has it right in looking for the guy who truly loves to play and try and measure how much. It seems like a lot of the time whats in the heart is almost as important as talent and ability especially in the pro football.

 

[BACH]

What part of "teams aren't switching their outside pass rushers against the left-handed quarterbacks" is hard to understand? Watch the game on Sunday, and you're going to see Leonard Davis playing against KGB, the pure pass-rushing end who normally attacks the opposition's "blindside".

Please please please please please stop repeating that we need to do something to protect Matt Leinart's "blindside" as if it were more important that the side that the best pass rusher is going to be coming from. It wasn't important to get rid of Ross because he was protecting the blindside. It was time to get rid of Ross because he stunk up the joint. It's unclear whether or not replacing him with the next worse player on the offensive line is going to help.

Do you actually watch the games?

The frontside/blindside issue has nothing to do with teams shifting their best pass-rusher. You haven't notice that our TE now lines up on the left side, instead of the right side when Warner started? When the TE lines up next to the OT, it slows the DE down. It's just ½ a second or so, but that's all it takes. Ross was a below average starter as the frontside tackle, but he flat out stinks as the blindside tackle.

 

[kerouac9]

Do you actually watch the games?

The frontside/blindside issue has nothing to do with teams shifting their best pass-rusher. You haven't notice that our TE now lines up on the left side, instead of the right side when Warner started? When the TE lines up next to the OT, it slows the DE down. It's just ½ a second or so, but that's all it takes. Ross was a below average starter as the frontside tackle, but he flat out stinks as the blindside tackle.

I watch scads of games; that's how I know. I don't really understand why you think this is important, though. Where the TE lines up has more to do with getting him in the QB's line of sight; watch Atlanta games, and they line Alge Crumpler up all over the field. I don't really see what that has to do with anything.

I don't really see what distinction you're making when you say "Ross was a below average starter as the frontside tackle, but he flat out stinks as the blindside tackle." What does it matter? He's still blocking the exact same player. Do you think that he'd suck less against Leonard Little if Kurt Warner were the starter and he's be protecting the "frontside"? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[BACH]

I don't really see what distinction you're making when you say "Ross was a below average starter as the frontside tackle, but he flat out stinks as the blindside tackle." What does it matter? He's still blocking the exact same player. Do you think that he'd suck less against Leonard Little if Kurt Warner were the starter and he's be protecting the "frontside"? That doesn't make any sense.

And that's why I asked if you watch the games. You completely miss the role of the TE in pass-protection.

Both Ross' and Big's weakness are speedrushers on the outside. Against them DEs are lining up on their outside and tee off. BUT it's pretty hard to tee off when the TE lines up directly in front of them. They not only have to coordinate their pass-rush with the TE releasing into a pattern, but have to factor in the posibility that the TE with downblock them on a run or doubleteam them and release on a play-action pass. The presence of a TE limits the DE and it slows his down.

You don't think that matters?

 

[JeffGollin]

What I'm wondering is: With Wells no longer at LG, when we run that "Edge for minus-2" toss around left end, will he still have to 2 or 3 unblocked defenders waiting for him at the corner? Or will we finally be able to make that play go with Liwienski at LG?

Hmmm. Why don't I feel reassured?

 

[kerouac9]

And that's why I asked if you watch the games. You completely miss the role of the TE in pass-protection.

Both Ross' and Big's weakness are speedrushers on the outside. Against them DEs are lining up on their outside and tee off. BUT it's pretty hard to tee off when the TE lines up directly in front of them. They not only have to coordinate their pass-rush with the TE releasing into a pattern, but have to factor in the posibility that the TE with downblock them on a run or doubleteam them and release on a play-action pass. The presence of a TE limits the DE and it slows his down.

You don't think that matters?

But that doesn't have anything to do with "frontside" or "blindside", as much as it has to do with where the TE ends up. Bigg doesn't have a problem with speed rushers (at least not physically--I think they get in his head); the reason that he was drafted #2 overall is that he had exceptionally quick feet for someone so large. It wouldn't matter whether there was a TE on that side or not, especially considering that our TEs can't block.

And we don't throw to our TEs, so no one's releasing into a pattern. Yes, the tackle with the TE next to him gets more help, but that has nothing to do with which side the quarterback's bellybutton is turned to when he's dropping back. If we wanted to give Ross more help, we should have flipped the TE over to the other side; it's not like we were going to throw to him anyway. There's no structural reason why the TE or a flexed FB can't line up on whatever side he's needed.

It's not a position (personnel) problem, it's an offensive design problem.

 

[Goldfield]

The biggest, boldest, smartest move is not a part of the plan here...

Moving LD to LG where he belongs...had he been matched up against DT Tommie Harris, the Cardinals would have beaten the Bears...it's that simple. Davis could have muscled Harris, which would have freen Leckey to try to block Urlacher...

This isn't hindsight...I posted this before the Bears game...at the time I said that if the only player on the Cardinals' roster who could handle Harris, Leonard Davis, wasn't matched up against him, the Cardinals had no chance of winning the game...well, the Cardinals still had a chance, but tell me this...if Davis was pounding on Harris down the stretch and Leckey could be free to block Urlacher, the result would have been different, there is no doubt in my mind.

Forget about the short arms thing...Wells has the feet to play tackle...that's the more important thing...Anthony Clement had long arms but no feet...proof enough...what Wells needs is a course in leverege for the running game...which he should be able to get against DEs...as far as pass blocking is concerned, Wells needs to keep his shoulders square and his feet quick and balanced...sopmething he's very capable of.

If Davis were switched to LG, I would even mind Ross next to him at LT for now because Matt Leinart has a nifty way of avoiding pressure (when he can see it)...and Ross with Davis could blow open holes on the left side in tandem.

The other thing is...on occasion it behooves the Cardinals to keep a TE in to block on passing plays and/or keep the RB in...Edge is relishing the role of circle route safety valve, but what good is that if Leinart is being harrassed too quickly and the MLB stciks with Edge...it's doing nothing...if anything Edge should protect Leinart and then run a delay slip up the middle or to the side.

The best lineup with what we've got right now:

LT Ross

LG Davis

C Leckey

RG Lutui

RT Wells (or Gorin...who has been unrightfully neglected in my opinion)

And while there at it, they should take some of the onus off of Edge by mixing in Arrington and Shipp...and whenever Ayanbadejo gets in the game it seems no one covers him. It takes a team...and if Edge has a problem with that, he can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with your entire post.

Ross might be better at LT(nonblindside), although maybe Lew would be good there also. I think Lew is less likely to flat out blow a block like Ross seems to do alot.

 

[Russ Smith]

So here's my theory on why Deuce is going to RG instead of LG. About the only thing that makes any sense to me is if Green et al plan on keeping Big, but at LG next season. Remember Green originally moved him to LG before banishing Shelton and making Big a LT. So maybe he figures Big is my LG next year so Deuce may as well spend the rest of this year playing RG since he will be playing that, not LG next season?

 

[Pariah]

So here's my theory on why Deuce is going to RG instead of LG. About the only thing that makes any sense to me is if Green et al plan on keeping Big, but at LG next season. Remember Green originally moved him to LG before banishing Shelton and making Big a LT. So maybe he figures Big is my LG next year so Deuce may as well spend the rest of this year playing RG since he will be playing that, not LG next season?

That'd be nice if it were the case, I just don't think Green is thinking that far into the future (nor should he at this point...he needs to win this week, or he won't be around for the next game much less next season).

 

[AZCB34]

So here's my theory on why Deuce is going to RG instead of LG. About the only thing that makes any sense to me is if Green et al plan on keeping Big, but at LG next season. Remember Green originally moved him to LG before banishing Shelton and making Big a LT. So maybe he figures Big is my LG next year so Deuce may as well spend the rest of this year playing RG since he will be playing that, not LG next season?

Maybe. I think part of the problem is that they will not get him signed to an extension and if they don't, he is likely gone...unless they tag him. If that is their intention, why not move him right now, dump Gorin in at LT and let those chips fall where they may. Then you try to negotiate a contract with Big that would pay him as a G.

The bigger question is can Denny really operate like that knowing he is on the hot seat? Playing a rookie OL away from his natural position?

Too much flip flopping around on this OL to ever allow them any type of comfort level.

 

[Goldfield]

Davis might be the best option at LT right now. But at 1-6 we should be thinking about seeing Davis at LG now so we can descide if were gunna bring him back as a guard. Its foolish to go into the offseason not knowing if Davis will be worth top dollar or not.

 

[Ohio Cards Fan]

My guess is that Oliver Ross is done here in Arizona.

My guess that Ross is done in the NFL...at least as a starter.