BA&SK's 5 Drafts

[Finito]

Yes. Your contempt for me is obvious. I get it. You have plenty of company on the board---there's a whole host of posters here who repeatedly bash my posts and never ever say anything positive (you and I and practically everyone else know who they are). To me, one-sided vitriol is a form of harassment and a violation of the rules of the board. Then whenever I point that out, I get the old "you can't handle criticism" reply...which is a crock. Over the years, i have taken more sh*t and criticism than any poster on this board. Then I get statements like yours that "you think Peterson sucks" and "you hate BA&SK." I have never said either. Yes, I do not like PP's efforts in zones and tackling and punt returns...but I always have lauded him for his man cover skills and his philanthropy. I have never said he sucks. Yes, there are a number of things I don't like about BA's coaching style and his high risk offense...but i always recognize that he gave us three years of exciting football. I do not hate BA. Nor do I hate SK.

I am still posting here because I made a commitment to the posters on this board for whom I developed a mutual respect and appreciation. No one here agrees with everything i write, nor do I expect them to. I am an open book, I say whatever i feel (after considerable thought). But, in doing so, i always learn a lot from the healthy discussions we have on this board. Like they say...the truth is often somewhere in the middle---which is why healthy discussions and debates are so valuable.

I hope we can reach some sort of accord. The irony is, i bet if we ever had a couple of beers together, we'd be instant friends. In fact, if you are ever in the Boston area, beers are on me.

Maybe I do take this a little to serious it's all good

 

[Mitch]

Maybe I do take this a little to serious it's all good

We're much beleaguered Cardinals' fans...it's hard not to take it too seriously. I can so relate. Thank you, Finito.

 

[iRobot]

So here's my take on this......... while I believe you've given some fair evaluation to this, it's meaningless put up against itself and not compared to 5 draft classes of an org that is considered "successful".

Just my two cents.

 

[Mitch]

So here's my take on this......... while I believe you've given some fair evaluation to this, it's meaningless put up against itself and not compared to 5 draft classes of an org that is considered "successful".

Just my two cents.

OK---I appreciate and understand your point. I recently wrote a thread called "The Drafting of a Defense" and it was about the Atlanta Falcons' drafts.

Did you know that every one of their defensive starters (and top 2 sub package players) were drafted by the Falcons? UFA DT Dontari Poe is the lone outsider---and if DT Rasheed Hageman (Rd. 2 2014) hadn't gotten in trouble they probably wouldn't have signed Poe.

Check this out:

L Defensive End

• T. McKinley---R1/2017

L Defensive Tackle

• D. Poe---UFA 2017

R Defensive Tackle

• G. Jarrett---R5/2015

R Defensive End

• V. Beasley---R1/2015

Weakside Linebacker

• D. Riley---R3/2017

Middle Linebacker

• D. Jones---R2/2016

Strongside Linebacker

• D. Campbell---R4/2016

L Cornerback

• D. Trufant---R1/2013

Nickel CB

• B. Poole---UCFA/2016

Strong Safety

• K. Neal---R1/2016

Free Safety

• R. Allen---R5/2014

Nickel Safety

• D. Kazee---R5/2017

R Cornerback

• R. Alford---R2/2013

The only drafted players on the Cardinals starting defense this year are:

OLB Kareem Martin (in for Markus Golden)
$LB Deone Bucannon
CB Patrick Pedterson
FS Tyrann Mathieu
SS Budda Baker

UFA Frostee Rucker starts ahead of 1st Round 2016 DT Robert Nkemdiche
UCFA Olsen Pierre starts ahead of 4th round 2015 DT Rodney Gunter
UFA Tramon Williams starts ahead of 6th Round 2012 CB Justin Bethel and 3rd Round 2015 CB Brandon Williams
Trade Acquisition OLB Chandler Jones starts ahead of 2017 1st Round OLB Haason Reddick
UFA Karlos Dansby was signed to take the place of 2nd Round 2013 ILB Kevin Minter
UFA Corey Peters was signed to take the place of 2010 1st Round NT Dan Williams

The big difference between the Falcons and the Cardinals is that the Falcons play their rookies right away and help them through the growing pains. Rookies compete for starting jobs in Atlanta---and they were drafted to win them.

 

[TRW]

Overall I think SK's drafts have been subpar. Too many reaches and love for the little guy (small school). Not sure what he and the staff were thinking on some of the picks, especially WHERE they were picked. And, letting the heart of the defense leave (not CC, that I understand) and replacing them with AARP guys was really foolish.

 

[Mitch]

Overall I think SK's drafts have been subpar. Too many reaches and love for the little guy (small school). Not sure what he and the staff were thinking on some of the picks, especially WHERE they were picked. And, letting the heart of the defense leave (not CC, that I understand) and replacing them with AARP guys was really foolish.

Good points. The problem with the small school guys too is learning how to adapt to sophisticated systems and the old school coaching. The transition to the NFL is hard enough.

Remember when G Earl Watford came in---the word was he was even more athletic at guard than Jonathan Cooper---but he an the coaches said from day one that it was going to take a year or two for him to learn the playbook (same with Chad Williams). It kind of became a stigma as Watford was never really given an opportunity to win a starting job---he was always considered a utility G/T. Same this year with WR Chad Williams.

Did anyone hear the radio interview with G Dorian Johnson after he was drafted? I think it was MJ who told him that BA had already stated that Evan Boehm was going to be the starter at RG and that Dorian would start minicamp and the PS on field #2. Right away you could tell that Dorian Johnson was extremely disappointed not to be at least considered in the mix for the starting job. These kids have never sat on the bench and they never want to. Johnson was a 1st Team All-American at Pitt...and he can't compete for a starting job on a team whose OL has struggled for years?

 

[gimpy]

Well, hopefully SK (and BA) will maybe change their drafting ways/thinking/philosophy some this year. Didn't SK make some sort of apology the other day concerning the Cardinals play this year? Sounds good to me.

I'm looking forward to our draft next spring..

 

[oaken1]

OK---I appreciate and understand your point. I recently wrote a thread called "The Drafting of a Defense" and it was about the Atlanta Falcons' drafts.

Did you know that every one of their defensive starters (and top 2 sub package players) were drafted by the Falcons? UFA DT Dontari Poe is the lone outsider---and if DT Rasheed Hageman (Rd. 2 2014) hadn't gotten in trouble they probably wouldn't have signed Poe.

Check this out:

L Defensive End

• T. McKinley---R1/2017

L Defensive Tackle

• D. Poe---UFA 2017

R Defensive Tackle

• G. Jarrett---R5/2015

R Defensive End

• V. Beasley---R1/2015

Weakside Linebacker

• D. Riley---R3/2017

Middle Linebacker

• D. Jones---R2/2016

Strongside Linebacker

• D. Campbell---R4/2016

L Cornerback

• D. Trufant---R1/2013

Nickel CB

• B. Poole---UCFA/2016

Strong Safety

• K. Neal---R1/2016

Free Safety

• R. Allen---R5/2014

Nickel Safety

• D. Kazee---R5/2017

R Cornerback

• R. Alford---R2/2013

The only drafted players on the Cardinals starting defense this year are:

OLB Kareem Martin (in for Markus Golden)
$LB Deone Bucannon
CB Patrick Pedterson
FS Tyrann Mathieu
SS Budda Baker

UFA Frostee Rucker starts ahead of 1st Round 2016 DT Robert Nkemdiche
UCFA Olsen Pierre starts ahead of 4th round 2015 DT Rodney Gunter
UFA Tramon Williams starts ahead of 6th Round 2012 CB Justin Bethel and 3rd Round 2015 CB Brandon Williams
Trade Acquisition OLB Chandler Jones starts ahead of 2017 1st Round OLB Haason Reddick
UFA Karlos Dansby was signed to take the place of 2nd Round 2013 ILB Kevin Minter
UFA Corey Peters was signed to take the place of 2010 1st Round NT Dan Williams

The big difference between the Falcons and the Cardinals is that the Falcons play their rookies right away and help them through the growing pains. Rookies compete for starting jobs in Atlanta---and they were drafted to win them.

Thats 5 first round picks out of the last 4 years on that defense....a HUGE investment in draft capital.it has been starting to work for them...yes..
but they suddenly find themselves looking up at the Saints who have invested significantly less in their defense.
all of those first round draft picks,...all those well known names.... and it didnt help them a single iota in the second half of the super bowl

 

[Jetstream Green]

This team gets too excited about icing and not the cake, an interest on complimentary players and not solid position players in my opinion

 

[Carolinacacti]

Don't care about the past drafts. But they better nail this next draft.

 

[Cardsmasochist]

* Only Cardinals' Draft Picks in Last 5 Years (37 picks) Making Positive, Week-to-Week Contributions This Season:

1. S Tyrann Mathieu
2. S Budda Baker


This is devastating


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[cardpa]

Yes. Your contempt for me is obvious. I get it. You have plenty of company on the board---there's a whole host of posters here who repeatedly bash my posts and never ever say anything positive (you and I and practically everyone else know who they are). To me, one-sided vitriol is a form of harassment and a violation of the rules of the board. Then whenever I point that out, I get the old "you can't handle criticism" reply...which is a crock. Over the years, i have taken more sh*t and criticism than any poster on this board. Then I get statements like yours that "you think Peterson sucks" and "you hate BA&SK." I have never said either. Yes, I do not like PP's efforts in zones and tackling and punt returns...but I always have lauded him for his man cover skills and his philanthropy. I have never said he sucks. Yes, there are a number of things I don't like about BA's coaching style and his high risk offense...but i always recognize that he gave us three years of exciting football. I do not hate BA. Nor do I hate SK.

I am still posting here because I made a commitment to the posters on this board for whom I developed a mutual respect and appreciation. No one here agrees with everything i write, nor do I expect them to. I am an open book, I say whatever i feel (after considerable thought). But, in doing so, i always learn a lot from the healthy discussions we have on this board. Like they say...the truth is often somewhere in the middle---which is why healthy discussions and debates are so valuable.

I hope we can reach some sort of accord. The irony is, i bet if we ever had a couple of beers together, we'd be instant friends. In fact, if you are ever in the Boston area, beers are on me.

Well said Mitch and I agree.

 

[cardncubfan]

Holy crap give the SK drafting stuff a rest. How many times is this going to be discussed.

Mitch isn't a fan of the front office and this stuff is getting old.

Dude any production from a 4-7th rounder is a flat out bonus most of them are out of the league in 2-3 years.

Cooper brought us Chandler Jones so for that im grateful. Like I've said before on here that is probably the single worst draft ive ever seen the top of that draft turned out to be horrible and Cooper was the highest rates guard in 20 years hindsight is always 20/20. It was the right pick to make.

Kevin Minter pretty much had identical stats compared to Donta Hightower in NE yet people on here call Hightower great and Minter a bum. Minter was solid and that's a good thing

Some people live in a fantasy world where you draft 6 pro bowlers every draft.

Have you seen Mel Kiper and McShays draft records? They suck the draft is a flat out crap shoot and anyone who tells you different is full of it.

I'll sit back and wait for everyone to come on here saying of well I wanted(a player that succeeded)

Awhile back I posted a side by side comparison of drafts with NE over a 5 year period or so. They didn't do any better & had about the same amount of starters.

 

[Mitch]

Awhile back I posted a side by side comparison of drafts with NE over a 5 year period or so. They didn't do any better & had about the same amount of starters.

Really?

Here's a list of Patriots either drafted or acquired by draft picks over the past 5 years---and many of these players were key pieces in helping them win 2 Super Bowls in that span: (In Bold: Value Picks)

2013

2---LB Jamie Collins
3---CB Logan Ryan
3---FS Duron Harmon
4---CB Aqib Talib*
7---RB LeGarrette Biount*

2014

1---DE Dominique Easley
2---QB Jimmy Garoppolo
4---RB James White
4---C Bryan Stork
4---G/T Camerson Fleming

2015

1---DT Malcolm Brown
4---DE Trey Flowers
4---G Tre' Jackson
4---G Shaq Mason
6---OLB Akeem Ayers*

2016

2---CB Cyrus Jones
3---G Joe Thuney
3---QB Jacoby Brissett
3---DT Vincent Valentine
4---WR Malcolm Mitchell
6---LB Elandon Roberts

2017

1---WR Brandin Cooks*
3---DE Derek Rivers (IR)
4---TE Dwayne Allen*
4---T Antonio Garcia
4---DE Deatrich Wise
5---RB Mike Gilleslie*

You really think the Cardinals' drafts over the past 5 years compare favorably with the Patriots'?

Plus---the Patriots have had lower draft slots in 4 of the 5 years.

 

[Finito]

Really?

Here's a list of Patriots either drafted or acquired by draft picks over the past 5 years---and many of these players were key pieces in helping them win 2 Super Bowls in that span: (In Bold: Value Picks)

2013

2---LB Jamie Collins
3---CB Logan Ryan
3---FS Duron Harmon
4---CB Aqib Talib*
7---RB LeGarrette Biount*

2014

1---DE Dominique Easley
2---QB Jimmy Garoppolo
4---RB James White
4---C Bryan Stork
4---G/T Camerson Fleming

2015

1---DT Malcolm Brown
4---DE Trey Flowers
4---G Tre' Jackson
4---G Shaq Mason
6---OLB Akeem Ayers*

2016

2---CB Cyrus Jones
3---G Joe Thuney
3---QB Jacoby Brissett
3---DT Vincent Valentine
4---WR Malcolm Mitchell
6---LB Elandon Roberts

2017

1---WR Brandin Cooks*
3---DE Derek Rivers (IR)
4---TE Dwayne Allen*
4---T Antonio Garcia
4---DE Deatrich Wise
5---RB Mike Gilleslie*

You really think the Cardinals' drafts over the past 5 years compare favorably with the Patriots'?

Plus---the Patriots have had lower draft slots in 4 of the 5 years.

You know what's been key to helping them win multiple championships? TOM BRADY

I see a few average players your giving credit to just because they play for the patriots. This is pretty normal and a few of the others aren't even on the team

 

[Mitch]

You know what's been key to helping them win multiple championships? TOM BRADY

I see a few average players your giving credit to just because they play for the patriots. This is pretty normal and a few of the others aren't even on the team

They went 3-1 without Brady last year. They beat the Cardinals in AZ without Brady and Gronk. The players I bolded are value picks....players who are significant contributors. Are they all elite players? No. But dang good ones.

The Patriots miss on some draft picks just like every team does (just like you and ccubf suggest), but they develop their players way better than the Cardinals do. Plus, they know how to use draft picks to get the players they want better than anyone in the NFL. And they do a very good job of drafting QBs even though they have Brady. I hope we can agree that Garoppolo and Brissett were better picks than Logan Thomas.

 

[Finito]

They went 3-1 without Brady last year. They beat the Cardinals in AZ without Brady and Gronk. The players I bolded are value picks....players who are significant contributors. Are they all elite players? No. But dang good ones.

The Patriots miss on some draft picks just like every team does (just like you and ccubf suggest), but they develop their players way better than the Cardinals do. Plus, they know how to use draft picks to get the players they want better than anyone in the NFL. And they do a very good job of drafting QBs even though they have Brady. I hope we can agree that Garoppolo and Brissett were better picks than Logan Thomas.

Like I said I see players who are average but get credit just for being on the patriots.

There the best dynasty in football history and to try and downplay Brady is ridiculous. Every team in the NFL is trying to be the Patriots and if it was that easy everyone would do it

 

[Mitch]

Like I said I see players who are average but get credit just for being on the patriots.

There the best dynasty in football history and to try and downplay Brady is ridiculous. Every team in the NFL is trying to be the Patriots and if it was that easy everyone would do it

What players are average? Give some examples. Of the 21 players I highlighted, all of them have been starters at one point or another...and many of them have started for years.

Again...you use words like "ridiculous" to describe my thoughts. I pointed out 2 facts---the Pats went 3-1 w/o Brady and they beat the Cardinals in AZ w/o Brady and Gronk. The one year Brady was injured the Pats went 11-5 with Matt Cassell at QB. I wasn't downplaying Brady's genuis, I was praising the Pats' command of the draft and their development of their picks.

 

[iRobot]

That's a fair comparison. They do have a lot of draft picks that are playing on defense. That's not to say that they are great or starter level players though.

2017 ATL DVOA on Defense 25th.
2016 ATL DVOA on Defense 26th.
2015 ATL DVOA on Defense 22nd.
2014 ATL DVOA on Defense 32nd.
2013 ATL DVOA on Defense 29th.

That's as far back as those draft picks go. So note, they do play their draft picks.. but one could argue that their draft picks have not been impactful either.


For comparisons sake:
2017 ARZ DVOA on Defense 5th.
2016 ARZ DVOA on Defense 3rd.
2015 ARZ DVOA on Defense 3rd.
2014 ARZ DVOA on Defense 7th.
2013 ARZ DVOA on Defense 2nd.

Just food for thought.

OK---I appreciate and understand your point. I recently wrote a thread called "The Drafting of a Defense" and it was about the Atlanta Falcons' drafts.

Did you know that every one of their defensive starters (and top 2 sub package players) were drafted by the Falcons? UFA DT Dontari Poe is the lone outsider---and if DT Rasheed Hageman (Rd. 2 2014) hadn't gotten in trouble they probably wouldn't have signed Poe.

Check this out:

L Defensive End

• T. McKinley---R1/2017

L Defensive Tackle

• D. Poe---UFA 2017

R Defensive Tackle

• G. Jarrett---R5/2015

R Defensive End

• V. Beasley---R1/2015

Weakside Linebacker

• D. Riley---R3/2017

Middle Linebacker

• D. Jones---R2/2016

Strongside Linebacker

• D. Campbell---R4/2016

L Cornerback

• D. Trufant---R1/2013

Nickel CB

• B. Poole---UCFA/2016

Strong Safety

• K. Neal---R1/2016

Free Safety

• R. Allen---R5/2014

Nickel Safety

• D. Kazee---R5/2017

R Cornerback

• R. Alford---R2/2013

The only drafted players on the Cardinals starting defense this year are:

OLB Kareem Martin (in for Markus Golden)
$LB Deone Bucannon
CB Patrick Pedterson
FS Tyrann Mathieu
SS Budda Baker

UFA Frostee Rucker starts ahead of 1st Round 2016 DT Robert Nkemdiche
UCFA Olsen Pierre starts ahead of 4th round 2015 DT Rodney Gunter
UFA Tramon Williams starts ahead of 6th Round 2012 CB Justin Bethel and 3rd Round 2015 CB Brandon Williams
Trade Acquisition OLB Chandler Jones starts ahead of 2017 1st Round OLB Haason Reddick
UFA Karlos Dansby was signed to take the place of 2nd Round 2013 ILB Kevin Minter
UFA Corey Peters was signed to take the place of 2010 1st Round NT Dan Williams

The big difference between the Falcons and the Cardinals is that the Falcons play their rookies right away and help them through the growing pains. Rookies compete for starting jobs in Atlanta---and they were drafted to win them.

 

[Mitch]

That's a fair comparison. They do have a lot of draft picks that are playing on defense. That's not to say that they are great or starter level players though.

2017 ATL DVOA on Defense 25th.
2016 ATL DVOA on Defense 26th.
2015 ATL DVOA on Defense 22nd.
2014 ATL DVOA on Defense 32nd.
2013 ATL DVOA on Defense 29th.

That's as far back as those draft picks go. So note, they do play their draft picks.. but one could argue that their draft picks have not been impactful either.


For comparisons sake:
2017 ARZ DVOA on Defense 5th.
2016 ARZ DVOA on Defense 3rd.
2015 ARZ DVOA on Defense 3rd.
2014 ARZ DVOA on Defense 7th.
2013 ARZ DVOA on Defense 2nd.

Just food for thought.

Yes, good points from the DVOA perspective.

The Falcons are starting 6 players they drafted this year and last. As young as they are, they still played very well last year until they wilted down the stretch in the Super Bowl.

I would trade their defense for ours right now---they are going to be outstanding in the next 3-4 years. Dan Quinn is an outstanding defensive coach.

 

[Finito]

What players are average? Give some examples. Of the 21 players I highlighted, all of them have been starters at one point or another...and many of them have started for years.

Again...you use words like "ridiculous" to describe my thoughts. I pointed out 2 facts---the Pats went 3-1 w/o Brady and they beat the Cardinals in AZ w/o Brady and Gronk. The one year Brady was injured the Pats went 11-5 with Matt Cassell at QB. I wasn't downplaying Brady's genuis, I was praising the Pats' command of the draft and their development of their picks.

Brissett is nothing special. You think he's a franchise QB?

Eladon Roberts is flat out bad and hasn't contributed at all for any length but you got him as an impact player

Joe Thuney is average he's alright but he ain't great or bad just alright, but he plays for the patriots so that means he must be better just by wearing that uniform

 

[Harry]

I think Mitch’s post was mostly accurate. I think Bucannon and Minter were functional picks. Cooper was never the same after his injury.

It would be hard to rate these as great drafts. They often had brief impact but Mitch is correct about sustained excellence. Injury/illness played a role in a few others like John Brown & TM. Still not many star quality players.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Good Lord. You are stupid negative. BASK took this team just short of a Super Bowl berth.

 

[Mitch]

Brissett is nothing special. You think he's a franchise QB?

Eladon Roberts is flat out bad and hasn't contributed at all for any length but you got him as an impact player

Joe Thuney is average he's alright but he ain't great or bad just alright, but he plays for the patriots so that means he must be better just by wearing that uniform

Where you and I are not seeing eye to eye is that I am assigning value to the picks and what round they are taken. The Pats got good value from Brissett---he won them game as a rookie starter last year and they were able to trade him this for WR Phillip Dorsett after they lost Edelman for the year. They got Brissett in the 3rd round (2016). Dorsett was a 1st round pick in 2016. That's value.

The Pats got Elandon Roberts in the 6th round (2016) and they liked him from day one---he's now playing well in place of Hightower---he's got 59 tackles and 2 sacks, mostly over the past 7-8 weeks. Check this:

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/...n_sacks_as_elandon_roberts_kyle_van_noy_shine

Joe Thuney is a 3rd round pick in 2016 and has started every game in two years. If that's not draft value, I do not know what is. The coaches love him in NE. Meanwhile, the Cardinals' 4th round pick at G this year never even made the roster.

 

[cardncubfan]

Really?

Here's a list of Patriots either drafted or acquired by draft picks over the past 5 years---and many of these players were key pieces in helping them win 2 Super Bowls in that span: (In Bold: Value Picks)

2013

2---LB Jamie Collins
3---CB Logan Ryan
3---FS Duron Harmon
4---CB Aqib Talib*
7---RB LeGarrette Biount*

2014

1---DE Dominique Easley
2---QB Jimmy Garoppolo
4---RB James White
4---C Bryan Stork
4---G/T Camerson Fleming

2015

1---DT Malcolm Brown
4---DE Trey Flowers
4---G Tre' Jackson
4---G Shaq Mason
6---OLB Akeem Ayers*

2016

2---CB Cyrus Jones
3---G Joe Thuney
3---QB Jacoby Brissett
3---DT Vincent Valentine
4---WR Malcolm Mitchell
6---LB Elandon Roberts

2017

1---WR Brandin Cooks*
3---DE Derek Rivers (IR)
4---TE Dwayne Allen*
4---T Antonio Garcia
4---DE Deatrich Wise
5---RB Mike Gilleslie*

You really think the Cardinals' drafts over the past 5 years compare favorably with the Patriots'?

Plus---the Patriots have had lower draft slots in 4 of the 5 years.

Draft picks only Mitch. No trades. My point is player evaluation & it being a crapshoot in the draft. Also the number of starters.