bad calls in game 3

[jenna2891]

NO, cheesebeef. A thread entitled 'bad calls' means it's a thread about bad calls, in which I talked about some calls that were bad.

Maybe in your universe "no one is getting an advantage" is good enough for you. But there is such a thing as a standard of excellence to adhere to regardless of your personal advantage. If I interpret you correctly, you are saying two wrongs makes a right.

i'm with madonna on this one.

 

[jbeecham]

I charted the game 3 fouls per quarter and here's the breakdown:

1st qtr: Dallas 9 fouls, Suns 3
2nd qtr: Dallas 2 fouls, Suns 7 (1 of Dallas's is the flagrant)
3rd qtr: Dallas 2 fouls, Suns 2
4th qtr: Dallas 3 fouls, Suns 4 (3 intentional)

So the game went just like I remembered, favored the Suns in the 1st, Dallas in the 2nd and few calls either way in the 2nd half. 2 of Dallas's fouls in the 4th were in the 1st few minutes of the qtr.

Edit: The totals add up to 16 fouls against each team. I checked the play-by-play twice looking for Dallas's 17th foul and it's not in there. Obviously that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it's just not in the nba.com play-by-play.

 

[Mavzy]

I charted the game 3 fouls per quarter and here's the breakdown:

1st qtr: Dallas 9 fouls, Suns 3
2nd qtr: Dallas 2 fouls, Suns 7 (1 of Dallas's is the flagrant)
3rd qtr: Dallas 2 fouls, Suns 2
4th qtr: Dallas 3 fouls, Suns 4 (3 intentional)

So the game went just like I remembered, favored the Suns in the 1st, Dallas in the 2nd and few calls either way in the 2nd half. 2 of Dallas's fouls in the 4th were in the 1st few minutes of the qtr.

Thanks Beecham...seems as though it was called pretty even

 

[Chris_Sanders]

The NBA's ratings are up. Attendence is up. Scoring is up. Highlights are up.

Does anyone honestly think they will change the officiating? It won't happen. To the NBA things are going great. In fact, if the Mavs win a championship Stern can effectively say "How can there be a bias if Mark Cuban has a championship team??"

"How can there be bias when Kobe and Lebron went home early in the playoffs?"

I am going to guess that this whole post season has been vindication for Stern, at least in his mind.

 

[jbeecham]

Thanks Beecham...seems as though it was called pretty even

yeah, the fouls that were actually called came out pretty even. But the numbers show a complete reversal of the 1st & 2nd qtrs.....like someone made a point of the number of fouls against each team and the refs were correcting it to even things out (rather than keep calling the game tight like they were in the 1st). The 2nd half, it was the fouls & violations not called that had a greater impact.

 

[elindholm]

The Suns ran up a big lead early in the second quarter. My guess is that Avery Johnson then told his players to be more aggressive, and the officials will always reward the more aggressive team. The swing in the second quarter was because the Mavericks increased their urgency and the Suns couldn't match it.

 

[jbeecham]

There wasn't a foul called in the 2nd until 6:27 left and it was against Stackhouse. All 7 Suns fouls (not including the technical on TT) happened in the last 3:45 of the qtr and the Flagrant happened at 2:05.

 

[Esther]

My problem wasn't with how many fouls were called for each team but how many of them were called acurately.

 

[jbeecham]

My problem wasn't with how many fouls were called for each team but how many of them were called acurately.

I know, I had the same complaint. I was trying to prove that the officiating changed over the course of the game and I think I proved that pretty well. It was the non-calls and blown calls that really hurt us in the 2nd half. I agree the Suns didn't play well in the 2nd half, but the game was still close and the officiating had an impact.

 

[nowagimp]

I know, I had the same complaint. I was trying to prove that the officiating changed over the course of the game and I think I proved that pretty well. It was the non-calls and blown calls that really hurt us in the 2nd half. I agree the Suns didn't play well in the 2nd half, but the game was still close and the officiating had an impact.

I agree that the foul thresholds did change alot during the game. If the suns are driving the lane and not getting calls, the defense of the 3 gets better(less help) and the game is over. I was disappointed to see that the suns were not getting the calls in the second half, but also that they did not attack the basket as aggresively as they did in the first half. Maybe they werent as aggressive when they noticed that the foul calls on the drives were not being made(a foul against the Mavs without the call becomes a turnover against the suns). Strange that, after a flagrant, the refs would allow MORE physicality, it makes no sense. Maybe the game was taking too long and they(NBA) wanted to fit it into the pre-planned timeslot.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

NO, cheesebeef, complaining about ref calls is not being a loser. It's a desire to have justice. I want fair calls for both sides. The current system of officiating is plain bad and ineffective. If fans of every team have reason to think the calls go against their team, doesn't that say something about the officiating system? NBA please clean this up. Let's have fair and square games. Famed players shouldn't get more calls for them because of "respect". Refs should be reviewed for their track record of good and bad calls, and get promoted/deprecated accordingly.

you're asking for the impossible. officials in every sport color the game. they are human. they will make mistakes. i guarantee you for every non-call or bad-call suns fans can conjure up the mavs fans could watch a game probably come up with one too. the only reason you don't hear it is 'cuz they won. the same is usually true in reverse when we win.

we did get jobbed in the lakers series, but for my money, this officiating has been fairly good, or at least fairly even. do i complain during games? yes. but i'm also focused on us rather then them so i don't see near as many fouls or travels, etc. on the suns.

finally, though i'm constantly yelling at the television for travels it's just part of the nba. for better or worse the travel, like the hold in football, has become so commonplace that they just call it occasionally. it's just part of life and the nba.

finally, those of you criticizing the refs, have you ever ref'd a game before? it is REALLY difficult. even with three refs you have to be watching what 10 moving guys are doing at all times and not just concentrate on the ball. it is not easy. i've done it. it's almost impossible.

finally, finally (really, finally), i agree with cheese (i know you're all shocked), i think it's weak that in almost every thread there is some mention of the refs. we are NOT losing this series because of the officiating. we not being overly hindered in our style of play due to the ref's style of calling these games. we are missing shots, being outhustled, and have important players either injured or going into shells. this team needs to look inward if they really want to win. also, the refs will always favor the aggressor. we have not been the aggressor. let's not complain about the calls people. and yes, to do so i think makes us sound like whiny kings fans.

 

[jmartinez29]

People, People, please quit complaining about the refs. People in Dallas used to do the same thing. Listen and please understand in years past Dallas wasn't good enough to beat Suns (last year) Kings (year before that) and Spurs (year before that). Some people would moan and complain about how the refs were horrible, and I know that it can seem that one team gets more calls than the other. If your favorite team can play the game & not worry about what the refs call, then your favorite team will win more times than they lose. Case in point the Dallas Mavericks. It really bothers me when whiney fans (and all teams have them) complain that the refs were picking on their favorite team. Grow up! The refs are out there doing the best job that they can, just like the players. Players blow defensive assingments, sometimes it's because they are lazy sometimes it is because the other player just beats them. Just the same way with refs. These guys & gals are not perfect. Enjoy the games allready! Some fans of other lottery teams wish that the refs could blow calls against their team. BTW if you want to know who my favorite team is (if you haven't guessed it by now) it is the Dallas Mavericks. GO MAVERICKS!!!!!!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

NO, cheesebeef. A thread entitled 'bad calls' means it's a thread about bad calls, in which I talked about some calls that were bad.

Maybe in your universe "no one is getting an advantage" is good enough for you. But there is such a thing as a standard of excellence to adhere to regardless of your personal advantage. If I interpret you correctly, you are saying two wrongs makes a right.

you want justice, that generally equates to even-handedness. if that's the justice you're looking for, then even called games is justice.

if it's perfection you're looking for you're looking in the wrong place. i have yet to see a game that we lose when there hasn't been a single post crying about the refs on this board. and people, that's ridiculous. furthermore, you just can't get perfection in officiating, it's done by humans. you're asking for the impossible.

your "standard of excellence" is being upheld. whether they see everything or get everything right or not is besides the point. they are the best refs in the world and they are calling the games accordingly. to say otherwise is to suggest there is some conspiracy (i mean, really???) or that they just don't care or are slacking. do you really think it's one of those two items? it is not easy to become an nba ref. it is also not necessarily to stay one. what do you want, instant replay like in the nfl? that would be ridiculous at the nba level.

 

[elindholm]

There are going to be a small number of games where the officiating is so egregiously bad and one-sided that it really does have a profound, almost insurmountable influence over the outcome. I don't think any of the games in this series comes close to being in that category.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

yeah, the fouls that were actually called came out pretty even. But the numbers show a complete reversal of the 1st & 2nd qtrs.....like someone made a point of the number of fouls against each team and the refs were correcting it to even things out (rather than keep calling the game tight like they were in the 1st). The 2nd half, it was the fouls & violations not called that had a greater impact.

my god, you really believe that??? you think they checked the number of total fouls and then all the refs agreed that they would even it out during the next quarter???? that's what you're suggesting. unless they have money riding on the game or a conspiracy actually exists they have no motivation for that. which do you think it was? 'cuz that's what you're insinuating . . .

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

IStrange that, after a flagrant, the refs would allow MORE physicality, it makes no sense.

even more reason to think that the concept of the refs consciously changing the way they were calling the games is ridiculous. that NEVER happens in the nba. NEVER.

 

[Mavzy]

1.

the only reason you don't hear it is 'cuz they won.

True

2.

but for my money, this officiating has been fairly good, or at least fairly even.

True

3.

do i complain during games? yes. but i'm also focused on us rather then them so i don't see near as many fouls or travels, etc. on the suns.

finally, though i'm constantly yelling at the television for travels it's just part of the nba. for better or worse the travel, like the hold in football, has become so commonplace that they just call it occasionally. it's just part of life and the nba.

And true... As a Mavs fan I typically see just the opposite, I normally feel like the Mavs are the ones getting screwed... but normally (not always) the games wind up being called fairly evenly....even when it's evenly BAD!

 

[jbeecham]

my god, you really believe that??? you think they checked the number of total fouls and then all the refs agreed that they would even it out during the next quarter???? that's what you're suggesting. unless they have money riding on the game or a conspiracy actually exists they have no motivation for that. which do you think it was? 'cuz that's what you're insinuating . . .

You think Avery Johnson wasn't complaining about it to the refs and pointing out the discrepancy in fouls called? Of course he was, he'd be a fool not to. Coaches complain about fouls or lack there-of all game long. Some coaches have a much better success rate at getting refs to call things in their favor (like Popovich or Phil Jackson). How else do you explain 7 fouls on the Suns in 3 minutes and 45 seconds while only 2 fouls on Dallas in 12 minutes. I guess your answer will be that the Suns committed fouls while Dallas did not.

 

[elindholm]

I guess your answer will be that the Suns committed fouls while Dallas did not.

Ockham's Razor.

 

[SirStefan32]

the officials will always reward the more aggressive team.

EXACTLY!!!

 

[Folster]

The only team allowed to complain about officiating is the 1972 USA men's basketball team.

 

[nowagimp]

You think Avery Johnson wasn't complaining about it to the refs and pointing out the discrepancy in fouls called? Of course he was, he'd be a fool not to. Coaches complain about fouls or lack there-of all game long. Some coaches have a much better success rate at getting refs to call things in their favor (like Popovich or Phil Jackson). How else do you explain 7 fouls on the Suns in 3 minutes and 45 seconds while only 2 fouls on Dallas in 12 minutes. I guess your answer will be that the Suns committed fouls while Dallas did not.

JBeecham, you obviously have a feel for the way the game is played in the NBA. You better believe Avery was wailing away about the discrepancy as its a goal of his strategy to keep the suns FT's down, thats how you beat the suns with the POP defense:

1) defend the 3 line strongly
2) force playmakers into the lane area and force them to shoot over a shotblocker
3) contest shots, but dont foul(suns shoot a high %)

Avery is constantly complaining to the refs and you can bet he's doing it effectively. I am not suprised that the refs try to equal fouls for the game, as it was a big complaint(# fouls called, each team) for many years. Evening out the fouls takes the conspiracy complaint away as you have seen in the posts of this board. The problem is that fouls or non calls can be very damaging in crunchtime, so all fouls are not equal in their impact. Also, the refs commonly call a ball out of bounds on the defender instead of a lose ball foul. When this goes on and some players foul out, it brings to question whether the non-calls prevented some players from fouling out but not others. So being aggressive pays, lose ball fouls are not called much of the time. Also, non-calls benefit the Mavs more than the suns who must shoot FT's (if the 3 pt line is defended) to win. When the game went to mostly non-calls in the second half, I knew it was trouble.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You think Avery Johnson wasn't complaining about it to the refs and pointing out the discrepancy in fouls called? Of course he was, he'd be a fool not to. Coaches complain about fouls or lack there-of all game long. Some coaches have a much better success rate at getting refs to call things in their favor (like Popovich or Phil Jackson). How else do you explain 7 fouls on the Suns in 3 minutes and 45 seconds while only 2 fouls on Dallas in 12 minutes. I guess your answer will be that the Suns committed fouls while Dallas did not.

funny it's amazing how watching the game and reading stats afterwards can differ your perception. i watched it and didn't complain about the fouls or non-calls during that span. i must be affected by avery's bitching too i guess.

 

[nowagimp]

funny it's amazing how watching the game and reading stats afterwards can differ your perception. i watched it and didn't complain about the fouls or non-calls during that span. i must be affected by avery's bitching too i guess.

I guess youre not too aware of the impact of a good coach. I didnt even read the stats until today, but I knew that during the game when the foul calls dried up the suns were toast. I'll bet both coaches knew it as well, that "no calls"(for both teams), means Mavs win. I felt that PJ was helping the Lakers get alot of calls against the suns as well, but Dunleavy did not seem to help the clips much.

 

[Mavzy]

I guess youre not too aware of the impact of a good coach. I didnt even read the stats until today, but I knew that during the game when the foul calls dried up the suns were toast. I'll bet both coaches knew it as well, that "no calls"(for both teams), means Mavs win. I felt that PJ was helping the Lakers get alot of calls against the suns as well, but Dunleavy did not seem to help the clips much.

So without interference from the refs.....the Mavs win? Is that considered fair or unfair? Just asking.