Bender vs. Chriss

[leclerc]

Haha funny but true. Ulis and Booker though.

 

[sunsfan88]

Watson threw inaccurate lobs to simulate the crappy lobs he'll be getting from Bledsoe.

from phone

It's just weird that Bledsoe sucks so much at throwing lobs when he has played with players like DeMarcus Cousins and Blake Griffin throughout his basketball career. You'd think he would be amazing at it based on just that.

 

[elindholm]

It's just weird that Bledsoe sucks so much at throwing lobs when he has played with players like DeMarcus Cousins and Blake Griffin throughout his basketball career. You'd think he would be amazing at it based on just that.

That's like saying Donald Trump should be a sex machine because he's gotten to practice with Melania.

 

[SirStefan32]

That's like saying Donald Trump should be a sex machine because he's gotten to practice with Melania.

 

[Ronin]

Which rookie will have the best career?
Bender (6.7 percent) received the fourth-most votes of any player, trailing only Buddy Hield (Pelicans), Kriss Dunn (Timberwolves) and Brandon Ingram (Lakers). Tied with Bender were Jaylen Brown (Celtics), Jamal Murray (Nuggets) and Ben Simmons (76ers). At 18 years old, Bender was the youngest player taken in the draft. The Croatian's versatile skill set and heaps of untapped potential make him a prized prospect. Ulis was among the players not listed who also received votes.

http://www.nba.com/suns/blog/suns-draft-class-garners-rave-reviews-nba-rookie-survey

 

[sunsfan88]

http://www.nba.com/suns/blog/suns-draft-class-garners-rave-reviews-nba-rookie-survey

Interesting that despite the media narrative that everyone hates KD, he's still the favorite player of most of these kids entering the league.

 

[Ronin]

Chriss getting a little love from fox sports.
2

Marquese Chriss, PF, Phoenix Suns (NR)
The Suns have three rookies who all need minutes to develop, but Chriss has been the one to make the most of his opportunity so far.

Chriss is second among rookies in scoring with an average of 13.6 points per game, but the athletic big man also leads all rookies in rebounds per game (6.2) and is finding ways to contribute on the defensive end as well.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-rookie-preseason-power-rankings-101716

 

[elindholm]

bump

 

[SirStefan32]

Chriss is looking much better for the time being. It is really amazing how much progress he's made in one season.

 

[elindholm]

I'm just not impressed with Bender at all. He's like a less fluid Nikoloz Tskitishvili.

 

[slinslin]

I'm just not impressed with Bender at all. He's like a less fluid Nikoloz Tskitishvili.

This, he had 2 decent games so far and one of them was simply based on actually hitting a few open 3s in a blowout loss.

 

[3rdside]

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Watch his defense, lateral movement on defense, his passing ability, speed down the court and his three's - he's not the next dirk but he can be a solid player.

And I know it's just a highlights tape but if he can shoot the three successfully, he's virtually unguardable when he tries it - 7ft tall with a high and fast release....priceless if it becomes automatic.

Pounding him now seems a bit premature either way.

 

[slinslin]

You know when your highlights of a player are "look at how he moves" it is really grasping at straws.

The main problem is that he produces next to nothing in the boxscore. 5.7 PER that is worse than Hezonja. Before the injury that was worst among all NBA players that qualified.

It is still the worst among all players that played a minimum 500 minutes.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2017&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&forceos_is=1&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&c6mult=1.0&order_by=per&order_by_asc=Y
( I must admit I get a little satisfaction from the fact that Domantas Sabonis is 5th worst on the list after how much hype he got from Suns fans who wanted to draft him as high as 4th, lol)

30% from the freethrow line. 37% from the field 31% from 3.

That highlight clip is absolutely misleading because it shows only his 3pt makes, it does not show how badly he often bricks.

4.6% assist rate. 9.7% rebound rate. (both lower than Chriss btw, since the beginning of the season too, not just recently)

It just shows how far off the scouting reports were on him.

At this point Benders year is more cause for concern than promise.

Here is an all time list of players that managed under 6 per while playing at least 500 minutes in a season.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&forceos_is=1&c1stat=per&c1comp=lt&c1val=6&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=500&c6mult=1.0&order_by=per

If you disregard the players that were about to retire that leaves Dennis Schroeder, Gary Harris as maybe the best out of those 92 seasons.

It is hard to be that unproductive and most of the company are ultimate scrubs like Nikoloz Tsikitsvilli, Mark Madsen, Sasha Pavlovic, Brian Scalabrine, Dragan Tarlac, John Ameachi, Eric Montross, Jason Collins..

It is concerning because the vast majority of players on the list are absolute garbage players.

And PER is a stat that usually heavily tilts in favor of big guys.

 

[3rdside]

Gotta concede it's a pretty an unflattering list.

Maybe it doesn't quite tell the whole picture because Bender has barely played over 500 minutes (507) when the average on the list is probably around 800 minutes but when I do a search for PER, 7+ ft, rookie season, and any number of minutes played, he's right down the bottom as well.


http://www.basketball-reference.com...s_is=1&c6mult=1.0&order_by=per&order_by_asc=Y



There is hope though!

Draymond Green appears in the top 100, sort of near Bender, for PER, all rookies, 500+ minutes played:

http://www.basketball-reference.com...al=500&c6mult=1.0&order_by=per&order_by_asc=Y



That being said, I take back what I said about him not looking like a bust because at this stage he's looking more like one than not, and if he can't get better at the three ball he's definitely a bust.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

He is LITERALLY the youngest player in the entire league. To label him a bust now based on extremely limited opportunities is...unwise (not my preferred adjective tbh).

The guy had enough support by people in the know to be considered a top 5 prospect in last year's draft, so there are plenty of informed people who see special potential in him. Now, do top 5 prospects fizzle out? All the time. But to completely disregard one before they turn 20 is crazy.

I could see that argument if the kid looked like absolute trash, but he doesn't. To say otherwise is just trying to win an argument by sheer force of will.

 

[slinslin]

In the last 30 years there were always "youngest" players in the league and they were not this bad.

Of course it is early, but it is extremely rare that a player who is struggling this bad develops into more than a role player (in the positive case).

The guy had enough support by people in the know to be considered a top 5 prospect in last year's draft, so there are plenty of informed people who see special potential in him. Now, do top 5 prospects fizzle out? All the time. But to completely disregard one before they turn 20 is crazy.

NBA people poorly evaluate prospects all the time, especially foreign prospects with little film on them.

Tsikitsvilli, Darko, Vesely etc were all high lottery picks and historic busts. Bender had not shown anything noteworthy on the pro level even in the Israeli domestic league he was a fringe player. Bender got basically drafted based on an U16 tournament performance a few years ago and rode the hype wave since. Ntilkina is the same story, you would be drafting a complete mystery because he has not developed at all yet, has not shown yet that he is even good enough to make the step to French league starter.

Pau Gasol, Kristaps Porzingis, Zizic, Jokic, Zubac, Nowitzki were actually contributors on their pro teams.

These guys play on European pro clubs programs for years before they are drafted. They have agents working for them behind the scenes for years to get them drafted. I wouldn't be shocked if some NBA writers cashed in to write positive stories about some of them because I am pretty sure that Chad Ford for example does not personally scout any of them and just writes what he is told by probably dubious sources and what he can gather on the internet with some of his own twist.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

NBA people poorly evaluate prospects all the time, especially foreign prospects with little film on them.

Tsikitsvilli, Darko, Vesely etc were all high lottery picks and historic busts.

Yes...agreed.

Message board posters poorly evaluate prospects at an even higher rate. I'm not even saying Bender will definitely be good. I'm saying we don't have enough information at this point to know.

I think you frequently make excellent points, but I am often confused and alarmed by the certainty with which you regard your opinions.

 

[Chaplin]

Yes...agreed.

Message board posters poorly evaluate prospects at an even higher rate. I'm not even saying Bender will definitely be good. I'm saying we don't have enough information at this point to know.

I think you frequently make excellent points, but I am often confused and alarmed by the certainty with which you regard your opinions.

That's simply because he makes said opinions solely on statistics. He doesn't actually watch the players play except in "highlight" videos, which is why he hates them so much.

 

[iRobot]

I dunno. It's year one for a young kid who was playing in an overseas league and limited minutes. I think you need to give him another few years before you start to say anything towards being a bust.

 

[leclerc]

I think both will be good. How good it's too early to say, but I think they can be starters for most of their careers.

How you can use stats and playing time in Europe against an 18 year old whose talents are so obvious when you watch him play is beyond me. Tsikivilli my behind.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm saying, let's give Bender an opportunity before passing judgement.

However, I do have a concern with Bender. It seems, at this early stage, he seeks to avoid contact by playing outside often at the 3 point line. He's not getting down low on offense to seek an entry pass almost like he is afraid of contact. I'm hoping this does foretell his basketball mentality.

 

[leclerc]

Against Houston the other day Bender challenged one of their big men at the hoop on defence, and I think he got dunked on, so he's not playing the matador defence like some of our previous stars at this early stage. I think we'll know more next year when him and Chriss have spent the summer working on their game and lifting in the gym.

Chriss is no Amaré so far. He's not that ferocious but he's tough, having played football, and he's more skilled on offence than I dared hope. I think we just should sit back and enjoy the ride. Those two, Booker, Ulis and Warren. We've got a bright future.

 

[Mainstreet]

Against Houston the other day Bender challenged one of their big men at the hoop on defence, and I think he got dunked on, so he's not playing the matador defence like some of our previous stars at this early stage. I think we'll know more next year when him and Chriss have spent the summer working on their game and lifting in the gym.

Chriss is no Amaré so far. He's not that ferocious but he's tough, having played football, and he's more skilled on offence than I dared hope. I think we just should sit back and enjoy the ride. Those two, Booker, Ulis and Warren. We've got a bright future.

I was primarily looking at Bender on offense. He does try to play some defense.

During the Warriors game he played a number of minutes early that were not productive. He wanted to stay on the perimeter on offense rather than play inside. Only my guess, but Watson may not have been happy with this as the next time he entered the game there was only like 36 seconds left. Bender looked like a different player than he looked in the Houston game.

 

[elindholm]

It's too soon to call Bender a bust, but anyone who says that they weren't hoping for more than him this season isn't being honest. So that means, by definition, that his rookie year has been a disappointment, which means that his entire projection range needs to be adjusted downward from when he was drafted.

 

[Covert Rain]

It's too soon to call Bender a bust, but anyone who says that they weren't hoping for more than him this season isn't being honest. So that means, by definition, that his rookie year has been a disappointment, which means that his entire projection range needs to be adjusted downward from when he was drafted.

It is too soon but I was never on the Bender will be the next Dirk bandwagon. I simply didn't see it and he is about what I expected so far.

Excited about Chriss though.