Best Duo Under 25?

[devilalum]

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I like our duo best and they are definitely the most similar to Kobe/Shaq.

Every time I see these comparisons I am shocked by the fact that Booker is still so young. I guess that's what happens when a player plays for 4 REALLY long seasons.

 

[Cheesebeef]

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I like our duo best and they are definitely the most similar to Kobe/Shaq.

Every time I see these comparisons I am shocked by the fact that Booker is still so young. I guess that's what happens when a player plays for 4 REALLY long seasons.

two of those duos went to Game 7 of the Conference Semi-Finals, one of the duos hasn't played together yet and ours just led us to the worst season in franchise history.

Give me Embiid and Simmons over all of them every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[devilalum]

two of those duos went to Game 7 of the WCF, one of the duos hasn't played together yet and ours just led us to the worst season in franchise history.

Give me Embiid and Simmons over all of them every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

You're probably right but they didn't play with the cast of misfits the Suns had last year.

And the coach

and owner..........

 

[BC867]

You're probably right but they didn't play with the cast of misfits the Suns had last year.

And the coach

and owner..........

That could explain why our guys are not at the top of the list.
Being part of success is part of the equation.

I'm rooting for Ayton to succeed, but it remains to be seen
if he could be half of a group to be better than Embiid/Simmons.

 

[JCSunsfan]

That could explain why our guys are not at the top of the list.
Being part of success is part of the equation.

I'm rooting for Ayton to succeed, but it remains to be seen
if he could be half of a group to be better than Embiid/Simmons.

Simmons is a flawed player. He is not the player that Booker is. Ayton was a rookie. We will see. Ayton has flashed plenty of potential and does not have Embiid’s injury issues. The Sixers were in the EC and had a better cast around. Good grief—they had Jimmie Butler on that team.

 

[Ronin]

two of those duos went to Game 7 of the WCF, one of the duos hasn't played together yet and ours just led us to the worst season in franchise history.

Give me Embiid and Simmons over all of them every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

None of those duo’s made it to the conference finals.
Semifinals, yes. Conference finals, no.

 

[GatorAZ]

Jokic and Murray by far.

 

[cwamjn]

I'd go with the Nuggets duo, today. Ask me again in a few years and I'm sure it will change. Can Ayton toughen up? Can Simmons shoot? Can Porzingis stay healthy? For what it's worth I probably like the Kings best with Fox and Bagley.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Simmons is a flawed player. He is not the player that Booker is.

Wait... Booker's not flawed? Booker has literally made NO IMPACT on the team winning games and he's a negative on D. That's HALF of the game. He's a great scorer at this point. That's about it. Simmons is a mismatch nightmare, who controls entire games without even scoring at this point... still scores 17 ppg, plays very good D and can guard anyone 2-5. The idea that Booker is somehow better than Simmons yet hasn't been able to lift the Suns out of complete joke-dom is a joke unto itself. Can Booker get better as a distributor and hopefully on D. Yes. But guess what, Simmons can also get better and even with his flaws, he's STILL making an impact while being only a couple months older than Booker.

Ayton was a rookie. We will see. Ayton has flashed plenty of potential and does not have Embiid’s injury issues.

That's nice... but Ayton has NEVER shown Embiid's actual production. You can talk "potential" all you want, but until he even starts to sniff Embiid's actual play, dominance on both ends of the court, he's not in the same league, zip code or universe.

The Sixers were in the EC and had a better cast around. Good grief—they had Jimmie Butler on that team.

Good grief... they made the playoffs and second round BEFORE they had Butler the previous year too. In fact, the moment Embiid and Simmons took the court for the first time, at the ages of 20 and 23, they led the team to the playoffs and 50 wins. I don't care if that's in the East or not, it shows MAJOR progression from a team that was atrocious forever, as opposed to us, who's record somehow got worse once Booker got Ayton on the court with him.

The reality is that once the Sixers duo stepped on the court, they immediately turned that team around, going from 28 wins to 52 and getting to the second round of the playoffs. Both of them effect the game at both ends of the floor. Again, they don't show "the potential" to do this... they ARE doing it. And they're still only going into their 5th and 3rd seasons in the league and can get better.

Give me that production AND youth over our "potential" every day of the week. Arguing otherwise really strains credulity.

 

[Cheesebeef]

None of those duo’s made it to the conference finals.
Semifinals, yes. Conference finals, no.

that's what I meant.

 

[Raze]

Oh, this is going to make me vomit...

Kobe was one of the greatest two way players of all time. 15 times he made an All NBA team. 12 times he made an All D team.
Shaq was arguably the most dominant force in the paint of all time and made an All NBA team 14 times and D 3 times.

They are without question the most formidable SG/C combo of all time.

Kobe/Shaq 2.0? Ugh. Part of me wants to fight off the discussion because it's ridiculous to compare any of those options to Kobe or Shaq. But it's July so why not? Here's how I'd rank them.

Kobe:

1. The closest to Kobe is Jamal. Jamal shows some life on D and is a threat to score anywhere at any time. Sneaky athletic as well.
2. Devin only resembles Kobe on O, but with a small fraction of his athleticism. And he is horrific on D.
3. Luka has the killer instinct of Kobe but he also isn't in the same stratosphere of athleticism and D.
4. Ben Simmons in his entire career won't hit as many game winners as Kobe did in his worst season. And he'll hit about as many three's in his career as well. On D he's fine, but on the perimeter on O he's the WORST in the NBA.

Shaq:

1. I give the edge to Embiid for the Cs. He dominates in the paint on both ends. Already has 2 ALL D team awards.
2. Jokic plays nothing like Shaq, but dominates in his own way. In the MVP conversation for a reason. But not a great defender.
3. Ayton could sleep his way to a double double. Based on potential he could equal Embiid.
4. The unicorn was hurt last year but at least showed dominance when he last played. I still don't think we'll see the same out of him again.

Based on my completely unflawed and lock tight rankings above that gives Jamal/Jokic the win. (subject to change)

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Jokic and Murray by far.

I might agree if Murray wasn't overrated like I believe him to be. Ultimately I think the 3 non Suns duos shown are all pretty even. I think the Suns have the potential to be the best, but Ayton is going to have to make a big jump for them to get there.

 

[elindholm]

Denver
Philadelphia
Phoenix
Dallas

It would be Embiid/Simmons in the #1 spot if not for Embiid's constant injuries. Jokic is never going to have the "Wow" factor because of his style, but he projects to a better career.

Porzingis is damaged goods and was already leveling off before he got hurt. At this point Ayton is the better gamble.

 

[BC867]

What about the opinions posted that Ayton might have a more meaningful career
as a Power Forward alongside a role playing Center?

Despite his easy double-doubles, we've yet to see him as a power in the paint,
either in college or the pro's.

Of course, with that limited experience behind him, who knows what he could
develop into.

 

[Phrazbit]

What about the opinions posted that Ayton might have a more meaningful career
as a Power Forward alongside a role playing Center?

Despite his easy double-doubles, we've yet to see him as a power in the paint,
either in college or the pro's.

Of course, with that limited experience behind him, who knows what he could
develop into.

We've already seen him as a power in the paint, he just had one of the best "in the paint" seasons by a rookie in ages, and that was without anyone knowing how to get him the ball in decent spots. Arizona was dumb as hell to play him at PF, they only did so out of loyalty to a Senior center who was a statue and couldn't function away from the hoop. Ayton has already shown high level post play on offense and projects to be an elite rebounder. Putting him as a PF who is going to spend half his time chasing perimeter players around is a huge waste or his strenghts.

 

[devilalum]

Even if Ayton was an exact clone of Shaq he wouldn't have the same dominating success in the modern NBA with the zone defense and all the other changes. Embiid is more the model big for 2019.

I read once that Shaq hated Colangelo because he was the force behind all the rule changes. He felt that the changes spoiled the later stages of his career.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Even if Ayton was an exact clone of Shaq he wouldn't have the same dominating success in the modern NBA with the zone defense and all the other changes. Embiid is more the model big for 2019.

I read once that Shaq hated Colangelo because he was the force behind all the rule changes. He felt that the changes spoiled the later stages of his career.

I think Shaq would still be dominant, because their are even fewer big min that can match up with him today than there were 20 years ago.

That was the major appeal of Ayton is that he could potentially run rough shod over the league in 3 years, with only a few centers that could really match up with him.

 

[devilalum]

I think Shaq would still be dominant, because their are even fewer big min that can match up with him today than there were 20 years ago.

That was the major appeal of Ayton is that he could potentially run rough shod over the league in 3 years, with only a few centers that could really match up with him.

Shaq struggled with the rule changes later in his career. Sure he was an amazing athlete but he had no shot outside of 8 ft. Even bigs have to be able to shoot the ball in today's NBA to be dominate.

Young Shaq would be much easier to defend in 2019. I'm not saying he'd be useless. He just wouldn't be as good.

 

[devilalum]

Wonder if Ayton's been working on a 3 pt shot? His range was almost there last year. A lot of his jumpers were just a couple of steps inside of the line. He's got a really nice stroke for a 7 footer.

 

[Mainstreet]

Jokic and Murray by far.

I like Jokic and Murray but that is only because I like Jokic so much.

 

[SirStefan32]

See, I don't want Ayton to work on his three as a priority. I want him to work on sealing off his man and getting a good post position. I want him to work on executing his low post moves quickly in one on one scenarios and double-team situations. If he can learn how to fight for position in the low post effectively, and make quick moves once he has the ball, he will be unstoppable.
He has a very good mid-range jumper already, so I really think that he will be able to add a three-point shot to his arsenal, but I really think fighting for position in the low post and executing his moves quickly should be his priorities.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Problems with that list are as follows.

#1. Combine the ages because the best pairing should be the oldest.

Embid / Simmons =48
Jokic / Murray = 46
Porzingis / Doncic = 43
Ayton / Booker = 42

#2. Pairings should have actually played together at least in a single game

#3. Add their combined stats

Embid / Simmons = 44.4 PPG 22.4 RPG 11.4 APG 2.1 SPG 2.7 BPG

Jokic / Murray = 38.3 PPG 15 RPG 12.1 APG 2.3 SPG 1.1 BPG

Porzingis / Doncic = Do not qualify.

Ayton / Booker = 42.9 PPG 14.4 RPG 8.6 APG 1.8 SPG 1.1 BPG


So it's pretty clear that right now the rankings are

Embid / Simmons
Jokic / Murray
Ayton / Booker
Porzingis / Doncic

But Ayton and Booker have two years together to even get to Jokic / Murray's age. I also think they picked "25" just to get Embid in

 

[JCSunsfan]

Problems with that list are as follows.

#1. Combine the ages because the best pairing should be the oldest.

Embid / Simmons =48
Jokic / Murray = 46
Porzingis / Doncic = 43
Ayton / Booker = 42

#2. Pairings should have actually played together at least in a single game

#3. Add their combined stats

Embid / Simmons = 44.4 PPG 22.4 RPG 11.4 APG 2.1 SPG 2.7 BPG

Jokic / Murray = 38.3 PPG 15 RPG 12.1 APG 2.3 SPG 1.1 BPG

Porzingis / Doncic = Do not qualify.

Ayton / Booker = 42.9 PPG 14.4 RPG 8.6 APG 1.8 SPG 1.1 BPG


So it's pretty clear that right now the rankings are

Embid / Simmons
Jokic / Murray
Ayton / Booker
Porzingis / Doncic

But Ayton and Booker have two years together to even get to Jokic / Murray's age. I also think they picked "25" just to get Embid in

That is a fair approach.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think Shaq would still be dominant, because their are even fewer big min that can match up with him today than there were 20 years ago.

That was the major appeal of Ayton is that he could potentially run rough shod over the league in 3 years, with only a few centers that could really match up with him.

I don't think the league is lacking dominant bigs so much as there are teams built around dominant bigs like there used to be. There are a lot of good Centers in the league now and Ayton didn't become #2 or even top 5 simply by entering the league. Each conference has 3-4 potential All-Star Centers right now and then a tier below that of 3-4 Centers that are quite good C's but not quite All-Stars.

The top tier of All-Star Centers would contain Gobert, Karl-Anthony Towns, and Jokic. In the East the top tier consists of Embiid, Drummond, Vucevic, and Marc Gasol.

The 2nd tier Centers around the league, which is where Ayton is currently, is comprised of guys like Nurkic, Capela, Steven Adams, Jonas Valanciunas, Cousins, DeAndre Jordan, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Horford, and Enes Kanter.

That's a lot of good to great bigs. Like I said, I'd put Ayton in the 2nd tier right now and hopefully he becomes a perennial all-star but he has a number of guys to surpass to be that. I think he has the talent but the idea there is a lack of quality bigs is something that I don't think is true.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I don't think the league is lacking dominant bigs so much as there are teams built around dominant bigs like there used to be. There are a lot of good Centers in the league now and Ayton didn't become #2 or even top 5 simply by entering the league. Each conference has 3-4 potential All-Star Centers right now and then a tier below that of 3-4 Centers that are quite good C's but not quite All-Stars.

The top tier of All-Star Centers would contain Gobert, Karl-Anthony Towns, and Jokic. In the East the top tier consists of Embiid, Drummond, Vucevic, and Marc Gasol.

The 2nd tier Centers around the league, which is where Ayton is currently, is comprised of guys like Nurkic, Capela, Steven Adams, Jonas Valanciunas, Cousins, DeAndre Jordan, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Horford, and Enes Kanter.

That's a lot of good to great bigs. Like I said, I'd put Ayton in the 2nd tier right now and hopefully he becomes a perennial all-star but he has a number of guys to surpass to be that. I think he has the talent but the idea there is a lack of quality bigs is something that I don't think is true.

I'm mostly comparing center play to what I grew up with in the late 80's through late 90's....and todays group just doesn't even come close to that crop. Where I would agree, is that there are a ton of good 2nd Tier guys. I just think the 1st Tier is what's lacking. Hakeem Olajuwon for example, would run roughshod over all of these guys, as would Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, and a few others.