Best Duo Under 25?

[Hoop Head]

I'm mostly comparing center play to what I grew up with in the late 80's through late 90's....and todays group just doesn't even come close to that crop. Where I would agree, is that there are a ton of good 2nd Tier guys. I just think the 1st Tier is what's lacking. Hakeem Olajuwon for example, would run roughshod over all of these guys, as would Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, and a few others.

I agree with that. There is no comparing the Centers from the 90's to today, almost all of them were MVP candidates with Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, and then a tier below in the conversation for Defensive Player of the Year constantly in Mourning and, Mutombo. Those guys would be top tier now, no doubt.

I think that's the major difference is we don't see the all dominant bigs. There are very good bigs but Jokic is the only one who really carries his team. I think Embiid could if he could stay healthy but he's had the benefit of a good supporting cast also so he hasn't needed to. Jokic and Embiid are the only 2 MVP candidates nowadays and they aren't real candidates, just sort of the token 5th place guys that fill out a ballot.

 

[devilalum]

When was the last time a team with a dominant center won or even played in the finals?

If you don't count Duncan you've got to go back to 2002. Even if you wan to talk about "bigs" instead of centers how many champs had a dominant PF or Center in the last 20 years?

 

[Phrazbit]

When was the last time a team with a dominant center won or even played in the finals?

If you don't count Duncan you've got to go back to 2002. Even if you wan to talk about "bigs" instead of centers how many champs had a dominant PF or Center in the last 20 years?

There are different ways to dominate. I think Draymond Green has been the 2nd most important player during the Warrior's run. Before Kobe got Pau Gasol he could hardly make the playoffs. Then there is Dirk with the Mavs and the Pistons had Ben and Rasheed Wallace, Boston with Garnett. I would say that most of the NBA champions in the last 20 years have had an elite big man.

I will concede that Bosh was not a dominating big by any stretch of the imagination and the Raptors and Cavs also lacked one.

You can win titles without an elite big man, but the requirement seems to be having a generational freak show who dominates on both ends... like LeBron, Leonard or Jordan.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

When was the last time a team with a dominant center won or even played in the finals?

If you don't count Duncan you've got to go back to 2002. Even if you wan to talk about "bigs" instead of centers how many champs had a dominant PF or Center in the last 20 years?

Why would we not count Duncan?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Why would we not count Duncan?

I think people get too caught up in what is working for other teams.

Ultimately the goal is to score more than your opponent and being able to create match up problems is the best way to do it.

That might be by having a dominant force inside along side a dominant perimeter player or it could be by having multiple dominant perimeter players, but I see no reason why a dominant big man can't be a player that leads to winning in today's NBA.

 

[devilalum]

Why would we not count Duncan?

I meant other than Duncan.


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[Cheesebeef]

See, I don't want Ayton to work on his three as a priority. I want him to work on sealing off his man and getting a good post position. I want him to work on executing his low post moves quickly in one on one scenarios and double-team situations. If he can learn how to fight for position in the low post effectively, and make quick moves once he has the ball, he will be unstoppable.
He has a very good mid-range jumper already, so I really think that he will be able to add a three-point shot to his arsenal, but I really think fighting for position in the low post and executing his moves quickly should be his priorities.

couldn't agree more. the guy has incredible natural skills and post up moves when he actually gets position. His potential is off the charts there... the kind of big man that can make an entire team scramble and demand double teams if he learns how to fight for position. If they can set up an inside out offense, using his skills down-low and his passing ability (which is pretty good also), they can really make defenses work with him punishing people down low, while surrounding him with shooters and an elite perimeter scorer in Booker.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I meant other than Duncan.


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Still Duncan sort blows up your point. When has a team with a superstar pg last won the championship—not counting Curry.

 

[95pro]

Why would we not count Duncan?

he's a "pf"

 

[Covert Rain]

Shaq struggled with the rule changes later in his career. Sure he was an amazing athlete but he had no shot outside of 8 ft. Even bigs have to be able to shoot the ball in today's NBA to be dominate.

Young Shaq would be much easier to defend in 2019. I'm not saying he'd be useless. He just wouldn't be as good.

He would still be a superstar. Who in this league of lightweight centers could keep him off the block? He never needed to shoot more than 8 ft away from the bucket. Nobody could stop in down low then or now Nobody. With all the teams chucking up 3's now I bet his rebounding would go way up even if his scoring went down. I am talking about young to prime Shaq. Not the one that gained weight later in his career.

 

[Mainstreet]

He would still be a superstar. Who in this league of lightweight centers could keep him off the block? He never needed to shoot more than 8 ft away from the bucket. Nobody could stop in down low then or now Nobody. With all the teams chucking up 3's now I bet his rebounding would go way up even if his scoring went down. I am talking about young to prime Shaq. Not the one that gained weight later in his career.

On the other end Shaq would have trouble defending centers that can shoot. He would have to up his free throw percentage as well. His game might resemble Rudy Gobert.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

On the other end Shaq would have trouble defending centers that can shoot. He would have to up his free throw percentage as well. His game might resemble Rudy Gobert.

Sure if Gobert was completely unstoppable on offense.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Lakers kept Kobe and let Shaq go should tell everyone where the NBA is. Hack the Shaq

 

[Covert Rain]

On the other end Shaq would have trouble defending centers that can shoot. He would have to up his free throw percentage as well. His game might resemble Rudy Gobert.

Your saying he would get 11 PPG? Not a chance. His rebounds probably jump to 15 per game and FG% around 65%. Only one center sniffed 40% in 3 pt shots and only 6 in the top 15 3 point shooting centers averaged more than one 3 pointer per game and none averaged 2. That means Shaq could sit outside the key against most guys night in and night out no problem. It's not like we have centers lighting it up at the 3 point line which means he doesn't need to be way out there. Plus they could use zone.

I bet most coaches will trade shot for shot centers chucking up 3's or from 10 to 15 feet all night long with Shaq in his prime dunking or laying up the ball down low.

 

[Carolinacacti]

His rebounds probably jump to 15 per game

I believe the rebounds on three point shots go long.

 

[Covert Rain]

Lakers kept Kobe and let Shaq go should tell everyone where the NBA is. Hack the Shaq

The rules are changed now. You can't do much of the crap they used to do to him.

• The current rule for away-from-the-play fouls applicable to the last two minutes of the fourth period (and last two minutes of any overtime) – pursuant to which the fouled team is awarded one free throw and retains possession of the ball – will be extended to the last two minutes of each period.”
  
  
• “For inbounds situations, a defensive foul at any point during the game that occurs before the ball is released by the inbounder (including a “legitimate” or “natural” basketball action such as a defender fighting through a screen) will be administered in the same fashion as an away-from-the-play foul committed during the last two minutes of any period (i.e., one free throw and possession of the ball).”
  
  
• “The flagrant foul rules will be used to protect against any dangerous or excessively hard deliberate fouls. In particular, it will presumptively be considered a flagrant foul if a player jumps on an opponent’s back to commit a deliberate foul. Previously, these type of fouls were subject to being called flagrant but were not automatic.”

 

[Mainstreet]

Your saying he would get 11 PPG? Not a chance. His rebounds probably jump to 15 per game and FG% around 65%. Only one center sniffed 40% in 3 pt shots and only 6 in the top 15 3 point shooting centers averaged more than one 3 pointer per game and none averaged 2. That means Shaq could sit outside the key against most guys night in and night out no problem. It's not like we have centers lighting it up at the 3 point line which means he doesn't need to be way out there. Plus they could use zone.

I be most coaches will trade shot for shot centers chucking up 3's or from 10 to 15 feet all night long with Shaq in his prime dunking or laying up the ball down low.

I was searching for a modern day center whose game resembles Shaq.

Gobert came to mind because he is an inside scorer, who rebounds and plays good defense. He doesn't have an outside shot either and shoots free throws at a modest rate. I'm not saying Gobert is as good as Shaq.

Where I think Shaq would have trouble is defending a center with an outside shot. Gobert is pretty mobile and more of a finesse player so he can defend an outside shooter better than Shaq. Where Shaq would have trouble is defending such a player.

 

[GatorAZ]

He would still be a superstar. Who in this league of lightweight centers could keep him off the block? He never needed to shoot more than 8 ft away from the bucket. Nobody could stop in down low then or now Nobody. With all the teams chucking up 3's now I bet his rebounding would go way up even if his scoring went down. I am talking about young to prime Shaq. Not the one that gained weight later in his career.

Shaq would be better today than he would in the 90’s/early-00’s and he’d probably average 5-6 assists per game. Joel Embiid averages 3.7 assists per game last year and the 76ers shot over 2,200 three’s not including Embiid. In 2000 when Shaq won MVP he also averaged 3.7 assists but Lakers shot about 1,200 less. And that team had 3pt shooters in Rice, Fisher and Fox... Considering his numbers came against teams that packed the paint and now we’re seeing wide open offenses he would **** feast on everyone.

 

[Covert Rain]

I was searching for a modern day center whose game resembles Shaq.

Gobert came to mind because he is an inside scorer, who rebounds and plays good defense. He doesn't have an outside shot either and shoots free throws at a modest rate. I'm not saying Gobert is as good as Shaq.

Where I think Shaq would have trouble is defending a center with an outside shot. Gobert is pretty mobile and more of a finesse player so he can defend an outside shooter better than Shaq. Where Shaq would have trouble is defending such a player.

Shaq was a freak of nature. Once in a generation player. He is one of those few players who would be a freak of nature in any era.

 

[GatorAZ]

Shaq struggled with the rule changes later in his career. Sure he was an amazing athlete but he had no shot outside of 8 ft. Even bigs have to be able to shoot the ball in today's NBA to be dominate.

Young Shaq would be much easier to defend in 2019. I'm not saying he'd be useless. He just wouldn't be as good.

Young Shaq, specifically in Orlando would be a nightmare. He bulked up quite a bit in LA but the really early version could play at any pace. He was pretty lean.

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(and damn Wilt was a specimen)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

On the other end Shaq would have trouble defending centers that can shoot. He would have to up his free throw percentage as well. His game might resemble Rudy Gobert.

This is crazy talk

 

[slinslin]

how is it crazy to think that Shaq would struggle to defend centers that shoot from the outside?

His defense was pretty bad when he had to move his feet.

 

[Phrazbit]

how is it crazy to think that Shaq would struggle to defend centers that shoot from the outside?

His defense was pretty bad when he had to move his feet.

When he got bigger, yeah, but Shaq was freakishly quick up until the 2000s.

This is crazy talk

I agree. I don't see any similarity between Shaq and Rudy Gobert.

There is no one in the league that is anything like what Shaq was in his prime. Yes, he wasn't a good outside shooter, but he still was among the league leaders in eFG% and there wasn't a damn thing anyone could do to stop him in the post.

Yeah, he might get a couple less shots per game because of zone defenses trying to deny him the ball, but there is another side to that coin. He was a great passing big man and with how spread out the court is in the modern league some schmuck is going to be tasked with guarding Shaq one on one. Teams in the West used to carry extra big men on their roster entirely because of needing extra bodies for Shaq to obliterate on the way to the hoop.

He still be an absolute wrecking ball.

 

[95pro]

Dwight Howard during his magic days?

 

[devilalum]

Shaq has even acknowledged that the rule changes effected his game.

If 19 year old Shaq came into the game today he would not have the same career that he did before.