Bickley said Suns and Magic working on a deal

[JCSunsfan]

There is a big difference in that Blake is actually an outstanding player.

Oh good grief, so is Kieff. Not as good as Griffin, but a top 10-15 pf.

 

[SirStefan32]

Oh good grief, so is Kieff. Not as good as Griffin, but a top 10-15 pf.

In what world is Morris an outstanding player?

 

[slinslin]

In what world is Morris an outstanding player?

In a world where people are capable of objective analysis, aka not your world.

 

[3rdside]

In a world where people are capable of objective analysis, aka not your world.

We mortals bow down, Einstein.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SirStefan32]

We mortals bow down, Einstein.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed. We are just not objective when we say that someone who averages 11 points and 5 rebounds per game while shooting 44% in 25 minutes per game is not an outstanding basketball player. Silly us!

 

[JCSunsfan]

I am looking forward to the day when we can all stop arguing about Kieff. But, alas, it will never come. Even if he is traded, the discussions will go on, especially if he does well where he goes.

I guess the best case scenario would be for Kieff to be traded for some value, and then for him to completely fall apart wherever he goes.

Otherwise, it will be like the Goran and IT discussions. They will go on and on.

 

[slinslin]

Agreed. We are just not objective when we say that someone who averages 11 points and 5 rebounds per game while shooting 44% in 25 minutes per game is not an outstanding basketball player. Silly us!

He is shooting 40%.

But thanks for proving that you are not capable of rational and objective analysis since nobody would realistically judge Markieff's talent based on the first half of this season.

Just for good measure, Markieff was rated a top 7 or so PF last season based on APM.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...G7BxkjBlTR4SE/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=214470020
Actually #15 NBA-wide for all positions based on RAPM. Draymond Green was the only PF rated higher than him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...&p2=millspa01&y3=2005&p3=westda01&p4=&p5=&p6=

Oh and he is averaging almost ~21/8/5 since Hornacek was fired.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Kieff is a very good pf when he hasn't negated himself through stupidity.

Ditto Blake Griffin. He isn't scoring any points per game for six weeks plus four days. And his team is actually playing for something.

Kieff is a very good player, Blake is a great player. They are both idiots.

 

[3rdside]

Calling him outstanding doesn't make sense, calling him outstanding value might; the 13-14 version of course and not the knucklehead we have now. At $8m, this has to represent the best value for money contract in the league, maybe bar none.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SirStefan32]

He is shooting 40%.

But thanks for proving that you are not capable of rational and objective analysis since nobody would realistically judge Markieff's talent based on the first half of this season.

Just for good measure, Markieff was rated a top 7 or so PF last season based on APM.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...G7BxkjBlTR4SE/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=214470020
Actually #15 NBA-wide for all positions based on RAPM. Draymond Green was the only PF rated higher than him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...&p2=millspa01&y3=2005&p3=westda01&p4=&p5=&p6=

Oh and he is averaging almost ~21/8/5 since Hornacek was fired.

Those are his career numbers. Why don't you tell us how outstanding Michael beasley and Earl Clark are going to be again?

 

[slinslin]

Those are his career numbers. Why don't you tell us how outstanding Michael beasley and Earl Clark are going to be again?

Why dont you tell us about Kaminsky or for that matter any other random white dude, especially ones with Yugoslavian names.

 

[Hoop Head]

Why dont you tell us about Kaminsky or for that matter any other random white dude, especially ones with Yugoslavian names.

Does it matter? Markieff has proven over the last 2 seasons that he isn't that good of a player when faced with adversity. Whether it's his technicals, trash talking, felony charges, towel throwing, issues with coach, unhealthy relationship with his brother, etc. The list goes on and on. Sure, he's capable of being a solid starting PF but he's not great and never will be. If he can't get his act together when there is nothing on the line what hope does a contender have of getting the most out of him?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh good grief, so is Kieff. Not as good as Griffin, but a top 10-15 pf.

man, we have MUCH different definitions of "outstanding". The idea that a guy in the top 1/3 or 1/2 of the league at his position is "outstanding" is mind-boggling to me.

he's a solid player, who's a massive head-case on and off the court.

 

[JCSunsfan]

man, we have MUCH different definitions of "outstanding". The idea that a guy in the top 1/3 or 1/2 of the league at his position is "outstanding" is mind-boggling to me.

he's a solid player, who's a massive head-case on and off the court.

NOt sure I used the word "outstanding" , I guess it could have been taken that way since I said "so is Kieff". Let me clarify. A very good player. But I think I did clarify when I said, "not as good as Blake."

Its really awkward for me to be defending Kieff. I want to trade him too. I am just trying to be objective.

 

[3rdside]

If he can't get his act together when there is nothing on the line what hope does a contender have of getting the most out of him?

Kind of think he's on a Suns-destruct mission - we pay him little, we trade his brother...he feels like he's been doubly screwed.

I think he'd probably view it as a success that either we get nothing worthwhile in return if we trade him, or he waits out the remainder of his contract while causing trouble where possible. The timing of the Goodwin thing was uncanny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cheesebeef]

NOt sure I used the word "outstanding" , I guess it could have been taken that way since I said "so is Kieff". Let me clarify. A very good player. But I think I did clarify when I said, "not as good as Blake."

Its really awkward for me to be defending Kieff. I want to trade him too. I am just trying to be objective.

I hear ya... but it read pretty weird. I think "very good" is a stretch as well. He's a solid player, IMO, who's mental limitations keep him from ever being very good (well, that an natural talent).

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't think he is even in the top half of PFs. For him to put up numbers the offense has to cater entirely to him, which translates to bad team offense. I'm not convinced his decent rebounding over the past few games is an indicator of his ability there when he's been lousy on the glass his entire career.

He is, at best, a very poor man's Paul Milsap.

 

[Catlover]

I don't think he is even in the top half of PFs. For him to put up numbers the offense has to cater entirely to him, which translates to bad team offense. I'm not convinced his decent rebounding over the past few games is an indicator of his ability there when he's been lousy on the glass his entire career.

He is, at best, a very poor man's Paul Milsap.

Except he really hasn't been. He was a pretty good rebounder in college because he was always used down low. He was a pretty good rebounder his first few years in the NBA too although his limited minutes obviously makes his per game numbers look weak. And even the last 2 years his rebounding (minutes adjusted) hasn't dropped to the "lousy on the glass" level, especially when you compare him rightfully to other stretch forwards.

 

[Phrazbit]

Except he really hasn't been. He was a pretty good rebounder in college because he was always used down low. He was a pretty good rebounder his first few years in the NBA too although his limited minutes obviously makes his per game numbers look weak. And even the last 2 years his rebounding (minutes adjusted) hasn't dropped to the "lousy on the glass" level, especially when you compare him rightfully to other stretch forwards.

Except he isn't really a stretch forward and I don't care about college numbers when a guy has been in the league 5 years. Markieff and his 32% shooting from 3 (28% this year) is not pulling the defense out, they'd love him to take that shot. He does most of his work within 15 feet and his 5.4 boards in 25 minutes for his career is weak rebounding no matter what kind of big he is. His 44% career shooting percentage would be more palpable if he didn't stink from 3... but he does.

I don't think he's good and even when he is playing well I don't think it translates into the team doing any better.

 

[Catlover]

Except he isn't really a stretch forward and I don't care about college numbers when a guy has been in the league 5 years. Markieff and his 32% shooting from 3 (28% this year) is not pulling the defense out, they'd love him to take that shot. He does most of his work within 15 feet and his 5.4 boards in 25 minutes for his career is weak rebounding no matter what kind of big he is. His 44% career shooting percentage would be more palpable if he didn't stink from 3... but he does.

I don't think he's good and even when he is playing well I don't think it translates into the team doing any better.

I haven't looked at a shot chart but from watching the games, he clearly spends a lot of his time beyond 15 feet. I agree he SHOULDN'T be a stretch 4 but that's how Hornacek used him. And I remember reading a comment from Markieff about how he'd rather bang down low but his coach wants him on the perimeter. He's putting up better numbers now in part because he's taking the ball inside more now that Jeff is gone and his rebound numbers reflect that IMO.

 

[Phrazbit]

I haven't looked at a shot chart but from watching the games, he clearly spends a lot of his time beyond 15 feet. I agree he SHOULDN'T be a stretch 4 but that's how Hornacek used him. And I remember reading a comment from Markieff about how he'd rather bang down low but his coach wants him on the perimeter. He's putting up better numbers now in part because he's taking the ball inside more now that Jeff is gone and his rebound numbers reflect that IMO.

If he sustains the current rebounding form then I'll revise my stance, but I don't anticipate he will. I think we're just seeing a brief honeymoon phase where a guy who's innate tendency is one of little effort on the glass is currently busting his balls at an unsustainable rate.

 

[sunsfan88]

Oh good grief, so is Kieff. Not as good as Griffin, but a top 10-15 pf.

Top 10 PF? JC, I'm serious when I ask this, do you smoke?