Big Red Huddle: Dansby

[NEZCardsfan]

Nez,

Anybody who says character doesn't matter never played with the likes of Terrel Ownes. Character matters and it always will. Taking the best-player-available does not preclude character, it's figured in as criterion in scouting reports.

I can tell you from a player's/coach's perspective it matters. Based on your post, it may be starting to matter to you, as it should to all fans.

It's always mattered to me. You are correct.

 

[Russ Smith]

No kidding.

I'm going to get flamed again.....but maybe DG's BPA available isn't going to work out so great after all. Maybe character does matter, then.

Well I made a somewhat similar comment after the last draft and again somewhat after this draft. Greens' drafts are being lauded on the board because of the value of his picks, people who put a lot of stock in Kiper or other ratings are saying man we got so and so in round 4 when he was rated a 2nd rounder. On paper that sounds great, but it begs the question does drafting talented kids who "slipped" really pay off? Maybe you get a bunch of steals, or maybe you get a bunch of kids and then find out WHY they slipped?

Or maybe they didn't really slip at all, maybe they were overrated in mock drafts?

Impossible to know, Dansby was reportedly a hard worker in college, Auburn coaches compared him to Takeo Spikes in terms of hard work and attitude.

I really wonder if this isn't the "Mark Smith" syndrome, guy with bad knees realizing he's only got so many years left and figuring he wants to get that big contract and bonus now while he still has high market value?

Disappointing though, I can't blame Green for this, there's not much you can do when they guy doesn't want to practice.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

But does that really make him a "headcase"? Darnell Dockett had real character issues. That LB from Florida State in the 2006 draft had character issues. Ernie Sims had character issues. There's a problem with accountability here, but you're making the problem much worse than it was.

I don't know in what world you live in where "bad interview" = headcase.[/QUOTE]

Whatever.

He is acting like a head case now.
-----------------------------------------
No wait! I take back what I typed above. You obvoiusly never have been in a job where you interviewed people for a position with your company. I have. And this world is not in a distant far off galaxy. It is earth.

Yes, a bad interview definately can make the equation "bad interview" = headcase a fact of life.

I have had people cry, lie, smell of alcohol. I have had people do EXACTLY what Dansby did and complete rip apart the job they just left. I mean 15 minutes of "Those jerks didn't know what they had, what a bunch of idiots." And they were headcases. They were slackers, and wack jobs. The couldn't work with anyone, or just plain couldn't find their way to the front door.

PLUS I had a time where I was so desparate for labor I hired someone who was not exactly a terrible interview but she said some things that made me uneasy. Two days, TWO FREAKING DAYS, after I hired this maniac she had the entire place in an uproar, being desparate I tried to make it work. But finally after having to deal with her everyday, after being called in to deal with her on a day off I fired the lady. And it crippled my business for a long time but we were still better without her.

So there is proof that a bad interview can and does equate to a headcase.

Of course you will respond with some ludicris post since you are NEVER wrong but at least this time I know I can justly and thoroughly back up my point.

And just to re-inforce a point I make to you time and time again K9 your childish insults, and prodding takes all that knowledge and great insight of yours and turns it into a 5th grade name calling match. I don't know why but this ticked me off but I am tired of your childish name calling.

Plus this statement:

I don't know in what world you live in where "bad interview" = headcase.

Just made anyone who hires and fires for a living see that you are just arrogant and refuse to admit your wrong even when you blatantly are. It is pretty sad. Maybe you and Dansby can go grow up

Sidenote: This is supposed to be relaxing and enjoyable. So buh bye Have fun talking to your mirror.

 

[lobo]

The question: would Dansby put his "heart and soul" into the game if he made more money? I don't think he would.

hardy....how about sending him a few larry wilson highlight films...but i don't think that is the answer...but boy do i rember watching him play with broken arms!!!

no one is bigger than the game...one day he might realize that...

 

[jw7]

"You know, man, anything can happen out here," Pace said. "Never get too complacent because before you know it, you'll be in the doghouse quick with somebody."

Hardy, I don't know if you had a chance to listen to MJ/Bick's interview with him this morning, but Kent Somers' interview sounds exactly the same.

There was a little more detail in the MJ interview. What happened is that in the season when there was a coaching change made from Mac to Green, Pace did not show up for the optional workouts. He thought he would work out on his own.

He flat-out said he made the wrong decision and learned from it. He totally accepted responsibility and didn't make excuses and it looks like he has learned from it and re-dedicated himself.

 

[CardLogic]

no one is bigger than the game...

Man Law!!

 

[kerouac9]

He is acting like a head case now.

Isn't the long and short of it that no one knows what's going on with Karlos Dansby? You have no idea how's he's acting, since you're nowhere near it.

For what it's worth, Rugby, when I was working in an office environment, I was one of those "special talents" that accomplished work way above my pay grade but was difficult for other people to work with. Even now, I'm one of those people.

Sometimes, special talents require special consideration. Sometimes bad interviews do expose bad players. Sometimes good interviews cover up good players. Sometimes bad interviews make a good player look worse. What I'm saying is that you have no idea whether or not there were character flags on Karlos Dansby when he was coming in the draft, and you needed Bach to bail you out on your assertion. That's no problem. That happens to me all the time.

Calvin Pace is doing his annual preseason All Pro act. That's fine. We should all feel warm and fuzzy about that and hope for the best for the kid. But I think it's a bad idea to depend on him, since every time this team has, he's come up well short of expecations and let this team down.

 

[NEZCardsfan]

Calvin Pace is doing his annual preseason All Pro act. That's fine. We should all feel warm and fuzzy about that and hope for the best for the kid. But I think it's a bad idea to depend on him, since every time this team has, he's come up well short of expecations and let this team down.

Dammit, now you've soured my Kool Aid. Are you trying to tell me that Pace isn't the ONE we've been looking for??

 

[CardLogic]

For what it's worth, Rugby, when I was working in an office environment, I was one of those "special talents" that accomplished work way above my pay grade but was difficult for other people to work with. Even now, I'm one of those people.

I think it's fairly safe to say that this statement surprises no one!

 

[joeshmo]

Isn't the long and short of it that no one knows what's going on with Karlos Dansby? You have no idea how's he's acting, since you're nowhere near it.

First the whole Calvin Pace preseason all pro act has nothing to with this arguement what so ever. It has nothing to do with Dansby's clear character issues. Bringing up Pace does nothing but show two opposite ends of the spectrum, on one side you have a kid who has learned from his mistakes and is working his butt off in what in the beginning looked like a hopeless situation(position switch), then you have another kid who doesnt want to work at all. Keeping on stating the Pace sucks mantra proves nothing one way or the other if Dansby has character issues.

People do no what is going on, they are around the situation, and they are telling us pretty point blank what is going on, yet people still dont want to see it. Print Media is telling you, Radio media is telling you, Hardy with inside connections is telling you this kid has some major character flaws that are wearing real thin on the coaches the same coach who treats his draft picks like his own kids. If Green drafts you, you are golden and its really hard to get into his dog house so far into his dog house he is speaking about you in public.

 

[Renz]

Isn't the long and short of it that no one knows what's going on with Karlos Dansby? You have no idea how's he's acting, since you're nowhere near it.

No one here is anywhere near the Leinart negotiations and there's 40+ pages of discussion on that subject.

Calvin Pace is doing his annual preseason All Pro act. That's fine. We should all feel warm and fuzzy about that and hope for the best for the kid. But I think it's a bad idea to depend on him, since every time this team has, he's come up well short of expecations and let this team down.

Pace has never played linebacker for us. The reports are encouraging. Pace was also playing well last season before he got hurt.

 

[joeshmo]

Isn't the long and short of it that no one knows what's going on with Karlos Dansby? You have no idea how's he's acting, since you're nowhere near it.

So you will believe what the media has been saying about the Matt Contract and how the Cards are short changing him.

But you wont believe the same media when questioning some of Dansbys character flaws or short comings.

 

[joeshmo]

I cant say if this rumor is true or not that I got a few minutes ago from a source close to the situation but Jurecki's comments this afternoon about Denny lowering his stance on Dansby and it may not be as big of an issue anymore seems to corroborate it.

The Rumor i got was that Green and Dansby had a heart to heart before he came back down to the valley. And the time in valley will be a time for him to get his head on straight and priorities reset. Sounds promising and it is just a rumor for now so we shall see.

If Dansby can come back and learn from his mistakes, he will be a better man in my book.

 

[devilfan02]

I cant say if this rumor is true or not that I got a few minutes ago from a source close to the situation but Jurecki's comments this afternoon about Denny lowering his stance on Dansby and it may not be as big of an issue anymore seems to corroborate it.

The Rumor i got was that Green and Dansby had a heart to heart before he came back down to the valley. And the time in valley will be a time for him to get his head on straight and priorities reset. Sounds promising and it is just a rumor for now so we shall see.

If Dansby can come back and learn from his mistakes, he will be a better man in my book.

I've never for one second thought he was coming back to the valley to "rehab." It's my guess that Denny sent him home to collect himself, then regroup with the team at Saturdays preseason game (not dress but be on the sidelines) and go back up to Flag after. That would be best case scenario. He has the resources, trainers and supervision, necessary to work out/rehab in Flagstaff so why come back to Tempe? This is just my opinion as I'm speculating which is all we can do at the moment......

 

[Hardy Brown]

First the whole Calvin Pace preseason all pro act has nothing to with this arguement what so ever. It has nothing to do with Dansby's clear character issues. Bringing up Pace does nothing but show two opposite ends of the spectrum, on one side you have a kid who has learned from his mistakes and is working his butt off in what in the beginning looked like a hopeless situation(position switch), then you have another kid who doesnt want to work at all. Keeping on stating the Pace sucks mantra proves nothing one way or the other if Dansby has character issues.

Well said, Joe.

Pace has never played linebacker for us. The reports are encouraging. Pace was also playing well last season before he got hurt.

Welcome fellow optimist. In order to see the future you must look forward. But since you brought it up, you are correct: Calvin Pace was very improved.

I cannot understand the distain for Calvin Pace. It sounds personal. What defies logic is that some posters seem to think the coaches don't know what they're doing. It begs the question: do you think the Cardinals coaching staff wants to lose games? Why would they play Pace if he was going to be such a disaster? He may become a disaster but by all accounts - let the record show, as of this day - this coaching staff believes he can succeed. Do you smell a saboteur?

 

[kerouac9]

So you will believe what the media has been saying about the Matt Contract and how the Cards are short changing him.

But you wont believe the same media when questioning some of Dansbys character flaws or short comings.

I don't hear anyone questioning some of Dansby's "character flaws" in the media. I hear a lot of whispers, and I hear that he's not participating in drills. To me, these don't add up to character flaws the way, say, Maurice Clarett has character flaws. Or the way Chris Henry has character flaws. Maybe what we have here is a failure in terminology. I react strongly to labels like "character flaws" and "headcase" (again, I think that Koren Robinson drinking before practices makes him a headcase--I think that Chad Johnson's checklist in his locker makes him an amusing personality), mainly because they can kill careers of players if they're applied indiscriminately.

I think that Karlos Dansby is going through some personal stuff that we don't know about because I don't think he's talking to anyone, including the coach who treats his picks like his children. I think that a lot of people here are jumping on that and suddenly thinking that it's about money and getting paid. That doesn't make sense to me because he wasn't that far from a big payday, as I said before.

I guess that I'm not so fast to see symptoms and then jump on the causes. I agree about the symptoms (being uncommunicative, not practicing, seeming to baby an injury), and don't at all disagree with Denny Green's idea to treat those symptoms by demoting Dansby and sending him back to Tempe (or allowing him to leave). But my feeling on the situation is that this is not contract-related. I'm not uncertain that it's not football related. (Sweet triple negative there, BTW).

I just don't think that we need to have a "Big Red Huddle" to talk crap about a guy that was one of the top performers on the defense last year and then pat ourselves on the back regarding a player that's never performed when the games counted.

Dansby is a player that you can count on when the game's count. His replacement right now is a guy that's been shown that you can't. We've heard every year that Calvin Pace is a new guy and is ready to make an impact for this team. I'm not going to buy that again.

I read Hardy's posts and see a lot of the same things that I see in Mitch's. He likes to see the underachievers do well. Do you really, really, really think that Langston Moore is going to be a better player than Kendrick Clancy when the games start counting?

Terrell Owens is a great player regardless of his fractious leadership skills. Larry Allen is going to go to the Hall of Fame but he was never a leader on his line or on his team.

Dave McGinnis had a team full of character players who stunk and lead us to being the worst team in the NFL over a three-year period. This team is not good enough yet to be pushing aside talented players because they have a guy that's again displaying his draft status when the games don't count.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Pace was also playing well last season before he got hurt.[/FONT][/B]

Welcome fellow optimist. In order to see the future you must look forward. But since you brought it up, you are correct: Calvin Pace was very improved.

Calvin Pace had 12 tackles and 1 sack in 5 games - that's nothing to pound your chest over. I saw more from Pace TWO years ago when the kid came out of the gate with 5 sacks and 2 FF in the first 6 games and then rode the pine for the rest of the year,but to say he showed improvement last year is revisionist history.

I actually feel bad that I contributed to this thread - it was reactionary on my part after hearing a lot of rumors and to be honest to have an entire thread where one of our most important and talented players is just lambasted while another of our players (who suspiciously got injured last year) who's been an outright bust gets praised is pretty silly IMO.

And banging on Pace has nothing to do with "getting personal" and I think it's a pretty ridiculous thing to make that claim. People bang on him because EVERY FREAKING YEAR we've heard how great Pace looks in camp, then by week 6 of every season, we never hear his name again, for whatever reason. We've heard the talk about this kid, but we've never seen the walk. That's why he gets criticized - nothing personal - just business.

 

[joeshmo]

I don't hear anyone questioning some of Dansby's "character flaws" in the media. I hear a lot of whispers, and I hear that he's not participating in drills.

Then you arent listening to the sources, good sources by the way, or looking at all the signs since his college days. Those whispers are pretty loud.

And Yes unwillingness to to any workouts what so ever, nonchalant, unmotivated, seperatist attitudes are character flaws. Try to use semantics all you want but in the end flaw is a flaw.

This isnt something brand new with the kid, it just finally reached its boiling point. Darren Urban wrote about his nonchalant attitude and not wanting to practice more then 3 weeks ago, Jurecki stated that not only coaches were concerned with Dansby but some players as well. Coaches had some issues with him last offseason as well it just wasnt big enough to be news worthy back then. Jeremy Green wrote an article about it a long time ago, where do you think he got his info from, hmmm I wonder.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=75365&page=2&highlight=Dansby

 

[joeshmo]

I guess that I'm not so fast to see symptoms and then jump on the causes. I agree about the symptoms (being uncommunicative, not practicing, seeming to baby an injury), and don't at all disagree with Denny Green's idea to treat those symptoms by demoting Dansby and sending him back to Tempe (or allowing him to leave). But my feeling on the situation is that this is not contract-related. I'm not uncertain that it's not football related. (Sweet triple negative there, BTW).

I guess it may sound like I am being a little to harsh. Maybe becuase I know these arent just rumors about Dansby, and I have been seeing this for sometime now. I just found it odd that no some were finding any faults with what Dansby has been doing. But judging by your last post you do see the flaws up to this point.

I dont think it is about money either. I just see a young inexperianced KID who doesnt get IT and that is completely clear without a shadow of a doubt. And once he does get IT, he can become a pro bowler year after year. Until then he will only be just a player who is always on the cusp pissing off his coaches and his teammates.

Hopefully the news from Jurecki reported earlier will fix that.

 

[joeshmo]

I read Hardy's posts and see a lot of the same things that I see in Mitch's. He likes to see the underachievers do well. Do you really, really, really think that Langston Moore is going to be a better player than Kendrick Clancy when the games start counting?

Hardy never stated he is a better player then Kendrick just that up to that point in practice going up against a groin injured Kendrick, Moore looked more like the 1st stringer, "In Practice". And to be clear Hardy was trying to name a few players other then the usual suspects(Fitz, Boldin, Rolle, Wilson, and so on) who was having good camps as well.

Hardy also wasnt the only guy to applaud Moore, "In Practice". Jurecki and Urban both have been talking him up on the radio a few times and the competition between him and a so far injured Clancy.

 

[joeshmo]

Larry Allen is going to go to the Hall of Fame but he was never a leader on his line or on his team.

Larry Allen was a huge leader in the weight room. Guys would schedule their weight room time around when Larry would be there. So in some areas he was a leader.

 

[Hardy Brown]

Calvin Pace had 12 tackles and 1 sack in 5 games - that's nothing to pound your chest over.
This is exactly the kind of thing a person with limited knowledge of the game points to in order to back up his arguement. There are many things a player does on the field that don't show up in the game summary. These hidden responsibilities within a defense, like holding the point-of-attack, playing his technique (gap) correctly or pushing the corner to name a few, determine if a player is doing his job.

I just don't think that we need to have a "Big Red Huddle" to talk crap about a guy that was one of the top performers on the defense last year and then pat ourselves on the back regarding a player that's never performed when the games counted.

I was not trying to pat myself on the back. I was trying to inform this group of Cardinals fans of some truths that are happening here in Flagstaff.

Football has been my life for a long, long time and when you know the game - because it was your job to know the game - you don't have to seek validation from posters on a message-board. Understand?

Your position on Calvin Pace is the safe one and compliant with a front-runner's mentality: the odds say he won't perform well changing positions, especially early in the season. The odds say he won't have the stats that Dansby has had in the past and, because of this, you and people like Cheese will point and say, "see..." And your "see" will have nothing to do with whether or not Pace has improved this defense overall. But in a ridiculous fit of irony, who will pound their chest then?

If Pace plays well, what do you have to lose? Face? Credibility? This coming from a person who thinks the primary responsibility for the Sam is playing man-coverage on the TE. Credibility?

I read Hardy's posts and see a lot of the same things that I see in Mitch's. He likes to see the underachievers do well. Do you really, really, really think that Langston Moore is going to be a better player than Kendrick Clancy when the games start counting?
I don't know who "Mitch" is but I'm sure I would like him. An underachiever doing well is not underachieving at all, is he? In regard to Langston Moore, again, I say what I see. Moore is having twice the camp Clancy was (before he got injured). Does it mean he's going to be a Pro Bowl player? No. I say what I see. By the way, Kendrick Clancy is the quintessential overachiever (which I think is what you meant, above), like Langston Moore. Look at his size and you tell me what you think?

I was standing next to a 30-year, NFL coach who was utterly perplexed with how Kendrick Clancy practiced. He was the last in line for every drill and looked disinterested in practicing hard during the team drills (we observed this for three-days). I won't say what the coach said but he was right. Langston Moore was working against our first-unit and making plays; Clancy was working against our second-unit (before he got injured) and doing nothing. But I should talk to you guys about Clancy, right?

You guys have made me realize one thing: message-boards are for fans. It reminds me why, to this day, I can't sit in the stands and listen to some of the things some people say. Most of them just don't know what they're talking about. And the worst part is...they act like they do.

The vast majority of this great forum is hungry for informed, educated information, regardless of whether it proves them right or wrong. That's awesome. Keep that attitude and do what you can to stay positive.

Fans should be able to rant and rave, regardless of whether they're right, wrong or just plain uninformed. You should be able to state your opinion without reserve. It's part of being a fan and without you guys there is no passion; if there's no passion, there's no interest; if there's no interest, people don't get paid.

Thanks again to ASFN; you guys are great and you provide a wonderful service for fans.

Peace.

 

[spanky1]

Hardy,

I believe that the "hate" for Pace (and for BJ) goes back to the draft when the Cards didn't take the fan favorite, Suggs. Not that I share this contempt.

I am a strong supporter of both Pace and BJ and think that when the dust settles, this move down in the 1st round to pick them will pan out beautifully.

As to Langston Moore.....I also share the enthusiasm for his future. It is common knowledge that Cinncinnati were torn about cutting him and are said to regret it now. God knows they could use a few more high character guys on their roster.

Two other players that I predict will turn the "darksiders" around this year....Aaron Francisco at FS and Jon Bronson at FB.

 

[kerouac9]

For what it's worth, Hardy, I think that you bring great information and knowledge to this board. I hope that nothing that I've said here turns you off to ASFN. I want what's best for this team.

But sometimes insiders and coaches are wrong, or so want to be right about players that they miss what's right in front of their faces. The same thing happens to fans. I'd love to be wrong about Calvin Pace--and so would cheese--and we'll happily eat crow on him if and when he proves us wrong.

The team and most of the fans were wrong about Thomas Jones. If Kendrick Clancy is looking bad in practices, then I'd like to hear that rather than how well Langston Moore is doing.

Thanks for the information that you bring to the board. Sorry if I turned you off of ASFN.

 

[JeffGollin]

1. Latest reports quote DG as saying that the reason why Dansby prematurely came down the hill was that it was mutually agreed he could get more rehab work done twice a day with his personal trainer than he could staying up in Flag.

2. "Hardy" - While I agree with you that coaches certainly don't want to lose (and, by definition, know a lot more than we fans), I don't think fans should give coaches automatic passes either. (i.e. maybe when we win the Super Bowl, they'll be entitled to more slack).

3. I think Spanky's onto something - Not necessarily because we passed on the hometown hee-ro to draft Pace and BJ. But because - by the team's own standards - we screwed up the pick in general (RG apparently "assumed" that the DE MacDougal would be available when we picked, but Philly jumped ahead of us to grab him). Ironically, hindsight being 20-20, Pace/BJ is looking better and better than had we drafted McDougal.

4. I found it interesting that Blackstock has been moved to WILL and has been singled out for a little love by the coaches. (Subliminal message to Karlos, perhaps?)