Biggest disappointments so far

[john h]

Skkorp:

I'd say that any close observer of the Cardinals should know that now. There's no QB on the current roster that I expect--or want--to be starting for the Cards in the 2007 season and beyond. If there's a quarterback available in the draft that's worth the pick, it's time to pull the trigger.

But I think your evaluation of Kurt Warner is premature, at best. Operating behind one of the league's worst offensive lines, with the 28th-ranked running game, Warner's running the #4 passing offense after two games. And if we agree that other parts of this team are works-in-progress, let's allow for the possibility that a QB playing for a new team--in an offense run by a first-time OC--and still learning his receivers' tendencies may have some upside left.

For the Cards' sake, you'd better hope I'm right. Warner would be the perfect transition QB, starting the remainder of this season and at least the beginning of 2006. How far he'd go into next season would depend on both his performance and the prize rookie's learning curve (not unlike Warner's experience last season with the Giants). I don't see either Josh McCown or John Navarre filling that role as well.



And I hope you don't really believe that the season will be "destroyed" if the Cards lose to the Seahawks (as I fully expect). This looked like an 8-8 team to me at the outset, and I expected the games at NY and Seattle to be losses. With thirteen weeks left, I couldn't imagine bringing McCown or Navarre in off the bench.

Unless they can pass-block, that is.

WC

I think Warner is good through next season if he stays healthy. I do not think we have a QB on this team beyond that. Either we draft one high or continue on with older QB's. We sure have missed some good ones along the way these past 5 years and many on this board were calling for us to draft one.

 

[SeaChicken]

And as far as Bryant Johnson being a "nothing" WR... well, that's just ridiculous. It's two games into the season and the guy has 4 catches for 42 yards. Ike Hilliard (#3 for the Bucs) has 3 for 19. Jonnie Morton (#3 for the 49ers) has 2 for 34. Kelley Washington (Bengals) has 1 for 0. The #3 and #4 WR for the Giants combine for all of 7 yards.

The guy's a #3 WR. They don't do much. This offense is nowhere close to being untracked. It's a little early to close the coffin on this guy.

A solid number three receiver can be VERY productive. Frisman Jackson and Joe Jurevicius come immediately to mind. Bryant Johnson was a first round pick three drafts back. It's actually pretty fair to call him an outright bust if he doesn't produce big this year.

I'm surprised that Arrington isn't mentioned in this thread. I expected him to become the second coming of Julius Jones. But it still may be way too early to tell with him. IMO, the Cardinals could use a good up and coming QB but given the choice, I'd say the best player they could go after in the next draft would be D'Brickeshaw Ferguson. Besides, if they did that, they might be able to trade a low round pick to Washington for Patrick Ramsey. He wants out, they want something in return, and I don't think the guy has ever been given a fair shake.

Larry Fitzgerald is a friggin stud but I think he was a luxury that the Cardinals couldn't afford back when they took him. I always said that taking a pass on Roethlisberger was a mistake. I would have said the same thing about Aaron Rodgers but you can't argue with the Antrel Rolle pick since that was a major need as well. I just think the Cardinals attack would be better if they had taken a guy like Roethlisberger in the first and paired him with someone like Keary Colbert in the second or third. It's great to have two stud receivers but it means nothing if you can't get them the ball.

Ferguson. If the Cardinals get the opportunity, that's who they should be going after.

 

[BigRedFan]

A good running game would open up the passing game. Warner is doing fine given the circumstances. When the defense doesnt respect the run, it hurts the passing game. Its also harder to score in the red zone with no running game and the shortened field.

 

[Evil Ash]

Warner is NOT the problem but sure...he has made some mistakes. Not getting the ball off on 2 or 3 red zone sacks is big but he didn't fumble and he didn't try to throw the ball away and into the arms of a defender.

Correction he did fumble 3 times and did throw it to the arms of the defender twice this season. He has played fairly well besides those mistakes

He isn't the problem. We can't run the ball. A one dimensional offense cannot work in this league no matter who the QB is. I said this last year and in previous years but somehow time and again people will blame it on the QB

 

[SuperSpck]

P. Ramsey = J. McCown
Albeit a little slower in the feet, maybe a stronger arm.
Both have trouble reading coverages. That's the wrong rub.

No Bennett needed here. Other problems need addressed.
Green bringing in every player he used to coach in the Vikings (roughly a 1/4 at this point) will only turn this team into the Arizona Vikings. I am not an Arizona Vikings fan.

Warner's had mistakes, but if AZ can even-out the Oline play and create balance in the offense with the running game he should be very good. I think he's had something like 88 passing attempts in 2 games? Tad high? Little much.

 

[TheCardFan]

Correction he did fumble 3 times and did throw it to the arms of the defender twice this season. He has played fairly well besides those mistakes

IN THE RED ZONE

The problem is TD's vs FG's, IMO.

 

[TheCardFan]

I see it different than you. Warner is doing well under the circumstances and is the best QB we have had in some years.

Since 89...Lomax.

 

[Evil Ash]

IN THE RED ZONE

The problem is TD's vs FG's, IMO.

he fumbled twice in the red zone (one in ours, once in theirs). The other came at around our 30 yard line

 

[red desert]

Oliver Ross
Chike Okeafor

 

[TheCardFan]

he fumbled twice in the red zone (one in ours, once in theirs). The other came at around our 30 yard line

I don't want to argue with anyone named Evil (except maybe Knievel) but are you sure? That doesn't sound right to me...I know he was sacked in our redzone...oh wait, he fell on one didn't he? What was the other one?

 

[Russ Smith]

Oliver Ross
Chike Okeafor

I'm actually quite surprised by Okeafor I thought he'd be too light and get worked over in the run game, and I thought he was overrated as a pass rusher but hes' a lot better than he was as a 49er.

 

[Jay Cardinal]

Disappointment

Oliver Ross. We gave him a pretty nice contract and were told we were getting a "mean, nasty player" who would be a devastating run blocker on the right side. Denny felt that was enough in free agency and the general consensus was the Cards offensive line would be improved. What happened? Kind of hard to be mean and nasty when your laying on your ass.

I think Warner performed about as expected. He looks good passing the ball, but still has turnovers at key times. He's been like that with NY and the Rams the last couple of years.

The defense has performed well statistically, but I had hoped it would be a little more feared by now. The gave up a few brutally long touchdown drives so far.

 

[Evil Ash]

I don't want to argue with anyone named Evil (except maybe Knievel) but are you sure? That doesn't sound right to me...I know he was sacked in our redzone...oh wait, he fell on one didn't he? What was the other one?

The one in our red zone (marching to score) was one where he fumbled the snap. The one in their red zone people forget about because Bulger threw an INT to Dockett the very next play.

The other one the ball was at about the 35, Warner went back and it slipped out of his hand while trying to pass it. I believe our TE was the one who fell on it that play.

He got lucky in that he only lost one (and the one he lost didn't lead to anything). Like I said he wasn't the reason we lost that game but he did have his share of issues

 

[D-Dogg]

I don't want to argue with anyone named Evil (except maybe Knievel) but are you sure? That doesn't sound right to me...I know he was sacked in our redzone...oh wait, he fell on one didn't he? What was the other one?

Fumbled 3 times and only LOST 1. LOST is all that matters.

 

[joeshmo]

Fumbled 3 times and only LOST 1. LOST is all that matters.

I dont think its as simple as that. Most fumbles mean you just fall on it loss a few yards and loss a down. It is not as bad as a lost fumble but its still a drive killer.

 

[CaptTurbo]

JJ
Ross
Wells

 

[JPlay]

Lack of running game.

Lack of allowing JJ Arrington to be the full time starter and take at least 25 carries in a game. He's a notorious slow starter. I want to see what our second round pick can do when given the chance. We've given up on him and he hasn't even had a chance to get 20 carries in a game. Look at Jamal Lewis who we know has talent and is elite. He had 9 yards on 12 carries last week. It obvious that you can't judge a RBs performance on one game or even a few carries. I remember Caddillac had 60+ yards on 20+ carries week 1 until he busted a long 60 yard run on one of the last plays of the game. GIVE ARRINGTON A CHANCE TO GET 20 CARRIES FOR A FEW GAMES AND LETS SEE WHAT HE CAN DO.

 

[john h]

I expected the oline to be screwing up for the first three or four games before settling in.

What I did not expect were the mediocre performances by Kurt Warner and Bryant Johnson. Warner's fumbles, sacks and brain farts are the biggest reasons we can't score. And Bryant Johnson is still a nothing receiver.

If Minnesota will give us Michael Bennett for BJ, I'd do it in a heartbeat. If Bennett turns out to be a bust, so what? BJ is already a bust. We lose nothing.

Suppose we go to Seattle and get the same scoreless performance from Warner again, with multiple red zone sacks and fumbles. If that happens, it will be clearing up the QB picture because it will be proving Warner has no future here.

And at 0-3, with the season destroyed, I'd start McCown and let him play the next few games. If he can't score, go to big kid from Michigan.

We need to know for sure by the end of this year if we need to draft a QB with that #1 pick.

Skorp do you really think BJ is a bust already? He has dropped some crucial passes but I am not ready to declare him a bust. I do think we need a tight end who can both block and catch a pass. Not having one really limits our offense.

 

[Russ Smith]

Lack of running game.

Lack of allowing JJ Arrington to be the full time starter and take at least 25 carries in a game. He's a notorious slow starter. I want to see what our second round pick can do when given the chance. We've given up on him and he hasn't even had a chance to get 20 carries in a game. Look at Jamal Lewis who we know has talent and is elite. He had 9 yards on 12 carries last week. It obvious that you can't judge a RBs performance on one game or even a few carries. I remember Caddillac had 60+ yards on 20+ carries week 1 until he busted a long 60 yard run on one of the last plays of the game. GIVE ARRINGTON A CHANCE TO GET 20 CARRIES FOR A FEW GAMES AND LETS SEE WHAT HE CAN DO.

Slow starter in games or in seasons? His junior year he fumbled a few times early in the year and that held him back a bit but his senior year he came out blazing had 181 yards in only 16 carries basically playing only the first half against Air Force.

I agree with the premise that because he's a big play guy more carries will increase the odds he pops one, but he has to earn the right to get more carries and so far he hasn't.

I'm confident he will, but he hasn't done it yet. I wouldn't say he's a known slow starter though he was so consistent last year it was scary, seemed he was near 100 yards by halftime in most of the games.

 

[john h]

I think the concensus in my thread was that we don't draft for position, we draft the best available player, regardless of position. You can never have too many good football players. This point may fall on deaf ears.

Generally I agree with you. Sometimes you are faced with two guys who are very similar in ability. If one is just below the other and fits a need you have to look at him as any pick is a roll of the dice. You sure do not take a guy rated number 5 over a number 1 because of need. How many of our #1 picks are still on this team after 6 years? If we get a good guy we need to figure out how to keep him. We also need to recognize a good guy when we have one. We have let some very servicable players leave who start for other teams. Every time we switch coaches we sort of start all over again with who to keep and who to draft. DG wanted "his own" guys. I would keep any guy if he was a good player even if drafted by the Devil himself. It appears to me that DG let his ego get in the way of making some sound personnel decisions.

 

[john h]

I think the consensus in my thread was that we don't draft for position, we draft the best available player, regardless of position. You can never have too many good football players. This point may fall on deaf ears.

Generally I agree with you. Sometimes you are faced with two guys who are very similar in ability. If one is just below the other and fits a need you have to look at him as any pick is a roll of the dice. You sure do not take a guy rated number 5 over a number 1 because of need. How many of our #1 picks are still on this team after 6 years? If we get a good guy we need to figure out how to keep him. We also need to recognize a good guy when we have one. We have let some very serviceable players leave who start for other teams. Every time we switch coaches we sort of start all over again with who to keep and who to draft. DG wanted "his own" guys. I would keep any guy if he was a good player even if drafted by the Devil himself. It appears to me that DG let his ego get in the way of making some sound personnel decisions.

 

[kerouac9]

K9:

It's all relative. Maybe calling Bryant Johnson "a nothing receiver" is a little excessive. On the other hand, most teams would hope to get more than a #3 wideout from a first-rounder. How about calling Johnson "a wasted draft pick?"

WC

Hey, I've been calling B. Johnson a wasted draft pick since when we took him. I'm a fan of him (which may be a kiss of death considering my recent history), but he's been slow to come around, and I'd like to see more production and impact from him this season. He won't get more than 40-60 catches, but he has to have a YPC around 14-17 and get at least 6-8 TDs to prove his value to this franchise.

This team would have been better off drafting either Terrell Suggs or Byron Leftwich at that #6 slot, but hindsight is 20/20. What we didn't know then was how Josh McCown would perform when placed into the spotlight, and because he was the QBotF at the time, it made sense for the team to wait another season on him. That dice roll crapped out. Hard to fault the Jags for their foresight in drafting Leftwich when they had Brunell as the starter and David "Josh McCown before Josh McCown was Josh McCown" Garrard in the wings.

 

[Wild Card]

Hey, I've been calling B. Johnson a wasted draft pick since when we took him... This team would have been better off drafting either Terrell Suggs or Byron Leftwich at that #6 slot, but hindsight is 20/20.

K9:

Whaddaya mean, "hindsight?" I'm pretty sure I wasn't alone in howling "NO-O-O!" at the big-screen when the stars aligned, Terrell Suggs dropped, the Cardinals were sitting there at #6 with their screaming need for a pass rusher--and blinked.

If there was ever a pick that combined talent, team need and marketing appeal, the All-American and all-Pac-10 DE from ASU was it. Instead, the Cards let the Baltimore Ravens get the 2003 NFL Defensive ROY at #10.

I know, I know. Bygones. But passing on Suggs and Jon Ogden rank as my two most-frustrating Cards draft-day memories of the last decade. How ironic that the Ravens got 'em both, huh?

WC

 

[kerouac9]

K9:

Whaddaya mean, "hindsight?" I'm pretty sure I wasn't alone in howling "NO-O-O!" at the big-screen when the stars aligned, Terrell Suggs dropped, the Cardinals were sitting there at #6 with their screaming need for a pass rusher--and blinked.

If there was ever a pick that combined talent, team need and marketing appeal, the All-American and all-Pac-10 DE from ASU was it. Instead, the Cards let the Baltimore Ravens get the 2003 NFL Defensive ROY at #10.

I know, I know. Bygones. But passing on Suggs and Jon Ogden rank as my two most-frustrating Cards draft-day memories of the last decade. How ironic that the Ravens got 'em both, huh?

WC

It was pretty obvious that the Cards weren't going to draft Suggs. From the beginning. It was going to be WR or QB that the Cards were taking, and DE was a secondary concern (remember, fan favorite and waste-of-space Kyle Vanden Bosch was again coming back from some major knee injury, or something... he was in the best shape of his career, was ready to make an impact, whatever).

I'm still not sure that the Cards should have taken Suggs, though. Would this team not be better off right now if Kevin Williams was in red, considering everything? I didn't like the guy at the time, but he's been pretty special for the Vikings.

Any way you cut it, Rod "this is my draft" Graves totally SNAFU'd that draft. He fumbled his way into one really good player (Boldin), two backups (Johnson and Pace), two fringe players (Reggie Wells and Gerald Hayes--until proven otherwise), and KVB II (Kenny King).

I just can't get on board with the Ogden-Rice thing being a mistake, but trading out of the #6 overall spot remains a huge disaster. Were I to travel back to that day and be in the War Room with Mac and Graves, I would have told them to draft Byron Leftwich. That's what I mean by "hindsight". I don't think that this team is that much better the past three seasons with T-Sizzle on the edge, but I think that this team is a full-on bandwagon playoff contender with Leftwich at the helm today (and we probably still would have gotten Larry Fitzgerald the next year).