Biggest Post-Pitt Concern

[Harry]

After crunching this game a few times I believe one cause far more than any other was responsible for the Cards' loss. Surprisingly it's not the failure to capitalize on closing the deal in the first half.

Yes Palmer did a bad job of reading defenses, but Pitt also did a good job of confusing Palmer and disguising defenses. Several times they looked like man coverage only to shift to zone. Palmer simply didn't always know he was throwing into double coverage.

Did the Cards run enough? Well the Pitt run defense did a good job of avoiding breakout runs. The Cards could have shown more patience, but that's not how the Cards' offense is designed.

In the end the Cards got beaten by Landry Jones. Mull that around for a second. Good teams eat up QBs like him. The Cards did not get to the QB enough, especially when they had such a novice at the controls. They needed to blitz more and change the defenses at the last minute to confuse Jones. Ironically they needed to do to him what the Steelers were doing to Palmer. On the whole the defenses were too obvious and therefore easier to attack. This hurt them against the Rams as well. It was too easy to see when running the ball was the best option. The Cards need to be more sophisticated in their alignments and movement. They could also exhibit a little more self control in all aspects. The Cards often overran plays. This time it wasn't screens like earlier. It was QB runs and short passes turned into long gains.

This team can win. It has the personnel. It just needs to play at a higher level.

 

[Jetstream Green]

A team reflects their coach and I believe this and this season Arians has had a taste of blowing teams out and now seems to lack the patience which got us wins in close games when he took over the position. I do not think it is all Palmer deciding to throw deep constantly when not warranted, I think Arians is encouraging it. Defense? It is due to a young DC which seems to make no adjustments at halftime in my opinion

 

[b8rtm8nn]

I hope Bettcher improves his creativity and aggressiveness, so far, he is just 'ok'

 

[kerouac9]

Don't forget that not only couldn't they stop or confuse Landry Jones, they couldn't create pressure against an undrafted rookie free agent offensive tackle who hadn't played organized football in like 4 years. He'd had 12 offensive snaps the entire season — 3rd string OT!

 

[Mitch]

In some ways I feel like the Steelers' game was perfect storm for them---their DBs got away with numerous holds and riding up WRs back before the ball arrived---the deflection INT was a phenomenal catch---as was Martavis Bryant's first TD where he somehow managed to get a knee down and the 2nd TD which is still dumbfounding as to how a skinny post with a reverse pivot in the middle of the field could result in an 88 yard TD---their rookie FG kicker was lights-out from 45 yards plus three times, which was huge for them and kept all their momentum going----Landry Jones played like a seasoned veteran---yes---the Cardinals' did not pressure him well enough or quicken his throws well enough, but still, for a guy who had never taken a real game NFL snap, his poise to gun the ball and lob it when needed was uncanny---and on the other end, the PI call on Floyd was iffy at best, which negated a TD---the roughing call that Golden got on Vick was on replay a legal hit---in fact, Golden has not been fined for a helmet to helmet---the non-holding call on Floyd which as BA said everyone in the stadium saw except the officials---

That said, the Steelers were more physical than the Cardinals and this is where one has to wonder whether the Cardinals are Cardinal Tough enough---as the two games they have lost were to teams that out-hit them.

Still---so many breaks went against the Cardinals in this game that it is hard to gauge accurately where the Cardinals are at this point.

 

[Chaz]

My biggest concern is how the defense, needing a stop late in the game, gave up big plays that iced the game.

I haven't looked at the numbers but the 3rd down % allowed doesn't seem very promising either.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Don't forget that not only couldn't they stop or confuse Landry Jones, they couldn't create pressure against an undrafted rookie free agent offensive tackle who hadn't played organized football in like 4 years. He'd had 12 offensive snaps the entire season — 3rd string OT!

The lack of pass rush is VERY concerning. Especially against a 3rd string tackle.

 

[BigRedRage]

My biggest concern is how the defense, needing a stop late in the game, gave up big plays that iced the game.
.

in both losses too.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Since I was at the game, I remember the pass rush the Broncos put on Logan Thomas when he came in for Stanton. His incompetence aside, he didn't have time for his heart to beat once before the rush was on him. Epic fail ensued.

Harry, it sounds like you are laying this at the feet of Bettcher. Many here have lamented his defensive calls. Are we really to believe it's just his inexperience that's the root cause? If so, surely Arians sees that and would do something to fix it.

.

 

[Finito]

After crunching this game a few times I believe one cause far more than any other was responsible for the Cards' loss. Surprisingly it's not the failure to capitalize on closing the deal in the first half.

Yes Palmer did a bad job of reading defenses, but Pitt also did a good job of confusing Palmer and disguising defenses. Several times they looked like man coverage only to shift to zone. Palmer simply didn't always know he was throwing into double coverage.

Did the Cards run enough? Well the Pitt run defense did a good job of avoiding breakout runs. The Cards could have shown more patience, but that's not how the Cards' offense is designed.

In the end the Cards got beaten by Landry Jones. Mull that around for a second. Good teams eat up QBs like him. The Cards did not get to the QB enough, especially when they had such a novice at the controls. They needed to blitz more and change the defenses at the last minute to confuse Jones. Ironically they needed to do to him what the Steelers were doing to Palmer. On the whole the defenses were too obvious and therefore easier to attack. This hurt them against the Rams as well. It was too easy to see when running the ball was the best option. The Cards need to be more sophisticated in their alignments and movement. They could also exhibit a little more self control in all aspects. The Cards often overran plays. This time it wasn't screens like earlier. It was QB runs and short passes turned into long gains.

This team can win. It has the personnel. It just needs to play at a higher level.

We were struggling before jones even came into the game the offense just wasn't.

 

[schutd]

Everyone seems to be flabbergasted that Jones played the way he did. Why? Isnt it possible the coaching staff had it wrong in thinking he wasnt ready? Is it possible they just didnt want to have the 2nd stringer have zero reg season snaps under his belt, even though he was showing promise? WHat was the book on him coming out of college? He has quite the career at OK. I guess Im just not that surprised that a guy can come in and play like that after 3 years of learning.

 

[schutd]

Sucks that it was against us, but everyone on this board is melting down about the fact that it was Landry Jones. He certainly seems like more of a QB than Vick does at this point.

 

[kerouac9]

Everyone seems to be flabbergasted that Jones played the way he did. Why? Isnt it possible the coaching staff had it wrong in thinking he wasnt ready? Is it possible they just didnt want to have the 2nd stringer have zero reg season snaps under his belt, even though he was showing promise? WHat was the book on him coming out of college? He has quite the career at OK. I guess Im just not that surprised that a guy can come in and play like that after 3 years of learning.

How did Ryan Lindley come in and play after 3 years of learning? Do you really think that through three training camps the Pittsburgh coaching staff didn't know what they had in him?

 

[schutd]

How did Ryan Lindley come in and play after 3 years of learning? Do you really think that through three training camps the Pittsburgh coaching staff didn't know what they had in him?

Im not trying to be obtuse. But in the limited amount of info we have, the coaching staff appears to have been very wrong about him. We certainly gave him the opportunity to shine, and now, Im sure DCs will be able to defense him and he'll return to earth. Lindley had awesome college numbers at SDSU right? A little different than playing for OU.

Im not saying Im right, I really dont know. Just a sunday game watcher. Not a stat geek. No time. I just dont understand why its such a huge deal that he played so well against us. I think its an aberration, not something to drill into and worry about. We know our problems on D. Its not the opposing teams personnel. Its ours, and our rookie DC's.

 

[kerouac9]

Im not trying to be obtuse. But in the limited amount of info we have, the coaching staff appears to have been very wrong about him. We certainly gave him the opportunity to shine, and now, Im sure DCs will be able to defense him and he'll return to earth. Lindley had awesome college numbers at SDSU right? A little different than playing for OU.

Im not saying Im right, I really dont know. Just a sunday game watcher. Not a stat geek. No time. I just dont understand why its such a huge deal that he played so well against us. I think its an aberration, not something to drill into and worry about. We know our problems on D. Its not the opposing teams personnel. Its ours, and our rookie DC's.

Sure you are. Because cheesebeef just schooled you on this very question in the Seattle thread. 3rd string QBs get hardly any reps in practice once training camp ends.

I'm trying to think of the times that a 3rd string QB came in in the middle of a game at all.

Austin Davis for the Rams last year came out and went 16 of 23 for 192 yards and a pick.
Tom Savage for the Texans last year came out and went 10 of 19 for 52 yards and a pick.
Zach Mettenberger for the Titans last year came out and went 2 of 5 for 17 yards and a pick.
Connor Shaw actually had a week to prepare for the Browns and went 14 of 28 for 177 yards and a pick.

The problem is the defense did nothing to confuse or pressure a guy who'd never stepped foot on an NFL field before. It's possible that Landry Jones is the second-coming of Kurt Warner, but it's not likely.

 

[schutd]

Sure you are. Because cheesebeef just schooled you on this very question in the Seattle thread. 3rd string QBs get hardly any reps in practice once training camp ends.

I'm trying to think of the times that a 3rd string QB came in in the middle of a game at all.

Austin Davis for the Rams last year came out and went 16 of 23 for 192 yards and a pick.
Tom Savage for the Texans last year came out and went 10 of 19 for 52 yards and a pick.
Zach Mettenberger for the Titans last year came out and went 2 of 5 for 17 yards and a pick.
Connor Shaw actually had a week to prepare for the Browns and went 14 of 28 for 177 yards and a pick.

The problem is the defense did nothing to confuse or pressure a guy who'd never stepped foot on an NFL field before. It's possible that Landry Jones is the second-coming of Kurt Warner, but it's not likely.

Gah,

This sucks. I wasnt there, nor are I here, trying to win an argument. I didnt get schooled in anything. If this forum has become nothing more than an "I know more than you" circle jerk, Ill go back to lurking.

Let me try again;

IT FEELS LIKE there is always some scrub ( i wrongly emphasized 3rd string, I just meant it randomly and in context, wonder if Landry Jones is actually a third string talent, or if the coaching staff has mis-read his abilities) who comes in and lights a place up when given the chance, and then falls back to earth after coaches get a book on him. I was simply saying, not trying to prove anything, that it doesnt surpriuse me that it happened (especially to us, for christ's sake), and that the whole sky is falling attitude seemed to stem from deep seated outrage that we lost to Landry Effin Jones. I was arguing that that point wasn't worth all the hand wringing.

Whatever.

I respect all yall's knowledge around here. I certainly contribute in more of a social way, so if its better that I lay low, so be it. Im fine being wrong about stats and feelings and all that, so no I didnt get schooled, I just didnt effectively make my point, I suppose.

So, go ahead and tell me some more how Im wrong. Im ok with it.

 

[cardncubfan]

Gah,

This sucks. I wasnt there, nor are I here, trying to win an argument. I didnt get schooled in anything. If this forum has become nothing more than an "I know more than you" circle jerk, Ill go back to lurking.

Let me try again;

IT FEELS LIKE there is always some scrub ( i wrongly emphasized 3rd string, I just meant it randomly and in context, wonder if Landry Jones is actually a third string talent, or if the coaching staff has mis-read his abilities) who comes in and lights a place up when given the chance, and then falls back to earth after coaches get a book on him. I was simply saying, not trying to prove anything, that it doesnt surpriuse me that it happened (especially to us, for christ's sake), and that the whole sky is falling attitude seemed to stem from deep seated outrage that we lost to Landry Effin Jones. I was arguing that that point wasn't worth all the hand wringing.

Whatever.

I respect all yall's knowledge around here. I certainly contribute in more of a social way, so if its better that I lay low, so be it. Im fine being wrong about stats and feelings and all that, so no I didnt get schooled, I just didnt effectively make my point, I suppose.

So, go ahead and tell me some more how Im wrong. Im ok with it.

I understood what you were saying Schutd & I agree for what it's worth which is not much.

 

[CardNots]

That said, the Steelers were more physical than the Cardinals and this is where one has to wonder whether the Cardinals are Cardinal Tough enough---as the two games they have lost were to teams that out-hit them.

Still---so many breaks went against the Cardinals in this game that it is hard to gauge accurately where the Cardinals are at this point.

THIS, +1

 

[Catfish]

For some reason, our Cardinals seem to have a terrible history of playing well against other teams starting QBs, then totally laying an egg when he has to leave the game and the backup comes in a takes us to task. I have never understood that, but it seems to occur over and over throughout out the Cards history.

 

[Harry]

Sorry, but obviously I've got to disagree that Jones performance was a reasonable expectation. He did play at a big school, had a winning record and has all the measureables. The tipoff is that a player of that description lasted until the fourth round of the draft (yes, I know about Tom Brady). Add in he'd only thrown a dozen or so NFL passes of which I don't believe any were to first string receivers. Finally as pointed out above, he rarely throws to the first string even in practice. He came out of college with the reputation he could be rattled. His last year he made it to the Big 12 Championship game, but only after losing earlier to KSU largely because he threw 5 interceptions. He got clocked in that Championship game, losing something like 40 to 10.

He was a such a marginal prospect that Pitt signed Vick. I've got to believe pressure would have broken him. I do think Bettcher was not aggressive enough. He has to realize he has little to work with in the way of rush personnel. He must compensate with his scheme. The Cards would have blitzed more last season. Not only was the left tackle out, but so was their best center. Communication would likely have been an issue on blitz pickup had the Cards forced the issue. Bettcher is seeing many things for the first time as a DC, but he must accelerate his learning curve. I'm okay with choosing him, but some vet to provide advice would have been nice.

 

[Harry]

Sorry, but obviously I've got to disagree that Jones performance was a reasonable expectation. He did play at a big school, had a winning record and has all the measureables. The tipoff is that a player of that description lasted until the fourth round of the draft (yes, I know about Tom Brady). Add in he'd only thrown a dozen or so NFL passes of which I don't believe any were to first string receivers. Finally as pointed out above, he rarely throws to the first string even in practice. He came out of college with the reputation he could be rattled. His last year he made it to the Big 12 Championship game, but only after losing earlier to KSU largely because he threw 5 interceptions. He got clocked in that Championship game, losing something like 40 to 10.

He was a such a marginal prospect that Pitt signed Vick. I've got to believe pressure would have broken him. I do think Bettcher was not aggressive enough. He has to realize he has little to work with in the way of rush personnel. He must compensate with his scheme. The Cards would have blitzed more last season. Not only was the left tackle out, but so was their best center. Communication would likely have been an issue on blitz pickup had the Cards forced the issue. Bettcher is seeing many things for the first time as a DC, but he must accelerate his learning curve. I'm okay with choosing him, but some vet to provide advice would have been nice.

 

[cardpa]

Gah,

This sucks. I wasnt there, nor are I here, trying to win an argument. I didnt get schooled in anything. If this forum has become nothing more than an "I know more than you" circle jerk, Ill go back to lurking.

Let me try again;

IT FEELS LIKE there is always some scrub ( i wrongly emphasized 3rd string, I just meant it randomly and in context, wonder if Landry Jones is actually a third string talent, or if the coaching staff has mis-read his abilities) who comes in and lights a place up when given the chance, and then falls back to earth after coaches get a book on him. I was simply saying, not trying to prove anything, that it doesnt surpriuse me that it happened (especially to us, for christ's sake), and that the whole sky is falling attitude seemed to stem from deep seated outrage that we lost to Landry Effin Jones. I was arguing that that point wasn't worth all the hand wringing.

Whatever.

I respect all yall's knowledge around here. I certainly contribute in more of a social way, so if its better that I lay low, so be it. Im fine being wrong about stats and feelings and all that, so no I didnt get schooled, I just didnt effectively make my point, I suppose.

So, go ahead and tell me some more how Im wrong. Im ok with it.

This is typical K9, always looking to make someone feel like they know nothing and they are an idiot. Just ignore him. This is K9's MO. I'm not saying K9 doesn't have a fairly good amount of knowledge he just has a need to diss other people. There are a lot of others here who appreciate your opinion and that is what it is an opinion.

 

[Garthshort]

Harry, as you inferred by saying that Pitt did a good job in disguising their defenses, my concern is CP's decision making. And rereading your post, I think that's a concern of your as well. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I can see Bettcher's thinking in not blitzing. Pittsburgh had backup OL in the game. He probably figured his starting DL should be able to generate pressure. That they couldn't is the main concern.

But once they weren't getting pressure, he probably should've dialed up some blitzes.

 

[Harry]

Harry, as you inferred by saying that Pitt did a good job in disguising their defenses, my concern is CP's decision making. And rereading your post, I think that's a concern of your as well. Correct me if I'm wrong.

A little of both looked like the case. My initial point was no one read defenses better than Warner. It's fine to say he forced some throws; he did. He also switched more plays that any QB except maybe Peyton.

Not sure at 35 Palmer will change much, but he must be encouraged to look at more receiving options. BA's question about why Palmer chose that throw was revealing. Warner simply saw options other players didn't.