What is it you think you are disagreeing with? The subject was bigs and I noted that a player can play big without being big just like there are big guys who don't play big.
Bigs on Suns radar
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What is it you think you are disagreeing with? The subject was bigs and I noted that a player can play big without being big just like there are big guys who don't play big.
fordronken
Registered User
I just think that the only relevant area for consideration is what position they will be playing. Size, style and type are irrelevant. If Alando Tucker starts playing regularly at power forward, I'll consider him a big on this team.
Well, I guess there are some exceptions. If DJ Strawberry is starting at center, I don't think I'll call him a big. So maybe you're onto something.
arwillan
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we did fine against dallas and detroit last year with the same amount of bigs. dallas cant score inside to save their lives. detroit does have a decent low post game, but last year when they beat us that one time it wasnt because of that at all.
so san antonio, the only team you mention with a low post threat we really ought to worry about, yes we do need another big to play them unless we plan to double down on duncan
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Does anyone in their wildest dreams think that Sean Marks is suddenly going to turn into a player? IMO, no matter what one thinks of Skinner, he is a much better player than Marks.
IMO, the Suns are scraping the bottom of the barrel and are not even sifting through the best of what is left.
IMO, the Suns are scraping the bottom of the barrel and are not even sifting through the best of what is left.
Sunsman44
The Sunsman Defense Team
Get over what? That's your opinion. I don't think Marion and Diaw are bigs. They'd be shooting guards and small forwards in 29 out of 30 teams.
Hmm. Very stong and very aggressive. Clearly the attributes of the supposed bigs of Phoenix named Diaw, Marks, and Marion, huh?
LOL!!!
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BC867
Long time Phoenician!
And therein lies the Suns ongoing playoff problems.
This is not golf -- a player vs. a hole in the ground.
Basketball means someone in your face at all times. If we're smaller and lighter than those guys, and the refs support them, pretending that two guys who are 6'7" and 6'8", weighing 228 lbs. and 230 are Power Forward and Center is going to result in . . .
We don't have to predict that. We've seen the results.
jbeecham
ASFN Addict
Elton Brown article from his Senior year at Virginia:
Elton Brown: Not a Fan Favorite
By John Galinsky
Mar 02, 2005
Elton Brown's #43 won't be hanging from U-Hall's rafters.
Elton Brown, it's safe to say, won't go down as the most beloved athlete in UVa history. OK, not even close. In fact, I can't think of any Cavalier in any sport who has been the source of so much disappointment, frustration and even outright animosity among the Virginia fan base.
(Let's admit it: A lot of fans don't like Elton Brown. Why is that? Is it justified, or is he a scapegoat for the team's failures? And how should fans treat the senior in his final home game tonight?)
In all my years of following UVa sports, I've seen some quarterbacks get booed. I've seen some basketball teams jeered during terrible performances. But I've never seen a Cavalier athlete consistently derided by the home fans like Brown has been this season.
Granted, only a vocal minority of fans have gone that route, voicing their displeasure at University Hall. But I think it's accurate to say that the vast majority of UVa fans are as eager to see the end of the Elton Brown Era as the Pete Gillen Era.
To be sure, Elton-bashing has become an epidemic on the basketball message board lately, and we've had to delete numerous posts about Brown that violate our Terms of Service regarding insults and name-calling. (Criticizing his play and his effort are fair game. Attacking him personally is inappropriate.) But I have to admit that I get emails and talk to fans every day who simply don't like Elton Brown. They don't like his attitude. They don't like his work ethic. They don't like his on-court behavior, appearance or performance. That shouldn't come as a surprise to any of you. How many times have you been discussing Elton Brown with other UVa fans and the tone quickly becomes harsh, negative and critical? It's not just the fringe fans who feel that way. Even the fans who really, really want to root for Brown have a hard time cheering him on.
Brown ranks 20th on Virginia's career scoring list.
Why is that? After all, this is a player who goes into his final home game tonight against N.C. State with 1,329 points and 472 rebounds. He is one of the top 20 scorers in UVa history. On this team, he is the top rebounder (8.6 rpg) and No. 2 scorer (13.8 ppg). Numbers like that usually draw cheers, not jeers.
Yet Brown doesn't seem to get any credit for dramatically improving as a rebounder this season. He doesn't get praised for slimming down since his sophomore season and becoming a better athlete. He doesn't get props for being an effective low-post scorer. Or does he? Honestly, I think most fans acknowledge those positive traits, but they can't help noticing all the negative ones, too.
Here's a partial list of "What's Bad About Elton Brown." Let's call it a Top 5, or maybe a Bottom 5.
5) He's a bad defender. Athletic big men blow past Brown or jump over him. He's not intense or aggressive. He doesn't block shots or make steals. He's a liability in man-to-man defense because he can't (won't?) guard anybody, and he's a liability in the zone because he doesn't move well enough to cover the area from the low block to the 3-point line.
Brown has more than twice as many turnovers as assists.
4) He's a bad passer. If Brown would just make good decisions and deliver crisp, accurate passes out of double teams, the Cavalier offense would be infinitely better. He doesn't. Usually he tries to force a shot in those situations (often getting it blocked). Or he makes a bad decision and turns it over. Or his pass is just a little too soft or a little too errant, putting the shooter out of rhythm or giving the defense too much time to recover.
3) He's a bad free-throw shooter. For a player who gets fouled a lot, Brown doesn't make the hackers pay. He's a career 59.5% free-throw shooter, 56.1% this season. His 10 missed foul shots killed the Cavs last week against Maryland. OK, Shaq's worse, but Shaq makes up for it by being superior in other ways. Brown doesn't.
2) He has a bad attitude. On the court, anyway, he sulks when things aren't going his way. He whines at officials. He pouts when he's benched. I've seen him curse out J.R. Reynolds for not passing him the ball. He got into an argument with Gary Forbes during the last game against Wake Forest. His body language and facial expressions don't exude toughness, resolve and determination. This is a team captain?
1) He's a bad dresser. One sock pulled up to the knee, the other down by the ankle. The shirt barely tucked in. The droopy drawers. The mouthguard falling out of his mouth. Some fans find the whole look disgusting. I'd call it kind of ridiculous. Come on, Elton. Sloppy isn't in anymore, haven't you heard?
I'm half-joking about the last item on the list, but I do think Brown's appearance makes it difficult for fans to relate to him. That, in turn, makes it easier for them to disparage him. That's not entirely fair, and some of the vitriol directed toward Brown has been vicious and unjustified. He's not a criminal. I don't even think he's a bad guy. But I'm also not going to sit here and argue that he's simply misunderstood, that he's unappreciated and getting a raw deal (which is what Elton seems to think, judging from his comments in today's Daily Progress). He's not. In many ways, Brown has brought this upon himself.
Undaunted by criticism, Brown has never been a shy shooter.
After all, he may have lost a lot of weight, but it's evident that he hasn't put in the hard work necessary to become a great player. His strength and stamina remain subpar for a college post player. His shooting touch has gotten worse, not better. Naturally, that disappoints fans who expect players to improve over the course of their careers, especially players who display the skills and talent that Brown flashed early in his career.
Most fans, I think, recognize skill and talent, but they respect and admire other qualities - a solid command of fundamentals, a team-first attitude, positive energy and competitive toughness. Above all, fans love a winner, and Brown hasn't done enough of that during his time as a Cavalier.
Indeed, the program has gone downhill since Brown arrived in the fall of 2001. The previous season, Virginia won 20 games, went 9-7 in the ACC and made the NCAA tournament. In Brown's four seasons, the Cavs have not received an NCAA bid. They have gone 7-9, 6-10, 6-10 and 4-10 (with two games left) in league play. And their fans have become increasingly disaffected and frustrated.
In the past two years, that frustration has been directed toward the two people whom fans hold most responsible - Gillen and Brown. It's hard to argue with faulting Gillen; he's the guy in charge. But is Brown also serving as a scapegoat for the team's failures? To some extent, yes.
There's no question that Brown isn't the only reason for UVa's troubles. You could argue that his classmates were just as destructive. Look at the other members of that 2001 recruiting class (“The Class That Doomed Pete Gillen”). Keith Jenifer, Jermaine Harper and Jason Clark couldn't even stick it out for four years. Brown is the only one still around, so he's an easy target. After all, you can't boo guys who aren't on the court. Other issues, such as injuries, attrition and a recruiting dropoff, have brought the Virginia basketball program to its knees.
What really aggravates many fans, though, is that Brown has been part of the problem, not part of the solution. The perception, at least, is that he should be better. He thinks of himself as an All-ACC caliber player, but there are 30 guys in the conference I'd choose over him. In addition to that inflated self-opinion and wasted potential, Brown's attitude and behavior also seem to get worse whenever the team struggles. On Sunday he sucker-punched Wake's Kyle Visser in the side while the two ran downcourt. He also elbowed Chris Paul in the head, knocking him to the ground after Paul had already been fouled on the play. Neither incident was vicious (in fact, neither drew whistles) but both were cheap shots. Just another reason to dislike Elton Brown, right?
Will Cavalier fans decide to boo Brown on Senior Night?
So should fans boo him tonight? That was a subject of considerable discussion on the message boards Sunday and Monday, and I have no idea how fans will react when Brown is introduced with his mother before tonight's game. But I would hope most fans decide not to stoop so low as to humiliate Elton Brown on an occasion that is emotional and special for any college athlete.
Sure, he doesn't deserve a standing ovation. He may not even warrant a hearty round of applause. I know some fans believe that any show of support for Brown is tantamount to condoning his lackluster effort and poor attitude over the years. By booing Brown, they think they're standing up for the ideals and standards that we ought to expect of a UVa student-athlete.
But I think those people are missing the point of the Senior Night ceremony. It's not Judgment Day. It's not a referendum on a player's career. If it was, many players would get booed before their final home game, but I've never heard of that happening to anyone, anywhere. To me, if Brown receives a chorus of boos, it would say more about the fans than it would about Brown. Frankly, it would show that they're classless at best, cruel and mean-spirited at worst. Elton Brown isn't a professional athlete. He's a college student who is on course to receive his degree in anthropology, a young man who grew up without a father and has matured (maybe not as much as we'd like) during his time at UVa, a guy who deserves the decency of a polite sendoff.
If you can't bring yourself to clap politely for Elton Brown, just sit on your hands. But no matter what, please don't boo a 'Hoo.
http://www.thesabre.com/news_archive/showArticle-1054.php
Elton Brown: Not a Fan Favorite
By John Galinsky
Mar 02, 2005
Elton Brown's #43 won't be hanging from U-Hall's rafters.
Elton Brown, it's safe to say, won't go down as the most beloved athlete in UVa history. OK, not even close. In fact, I can't think of any Cavalier in any sport who has been the source of so much disappointment, frustration and even outright animosity among the Virginia fan base.
(Let's admit it: A lot of fans don't like Elton Brown. Why is that? Is it justified, or is he a scapegoat for the team's failures? And how should fans treat the senior in his final home game tonight?)
In all my years of following UVa sports, I've seen some quarterbacks get booed. I've seen some basketball teams jeered during terrible performances. But I've never seen a Cavalier athlete consistently derided by the home fans like Brown has been this season.
Granted, only a vocal minority of fans have gone that route, voicing their displeasure at University Hall. But I think it's accurate to say that the vast majority of UVa fans are as eager to see the end of the Elton Brown Era as the Pete Gillen Era.
To be sure, Elton-bashing has become an epidemic on the basketball message board lately, and we've had to delete numerous posts about Brown that violate our Terms of Service regarding insults and name-calling. (Criticizing his play and his effort are fair game. Attacking him personally is inappropriate.) But I have to admit that I get emails and talk to fans every day who simply don't like Elton Brown. They don't like his attitude. They don't like his work ethic. They don't like his on-court behavior, appearance or performance. That shouldn't come as a surprise to any of you. How many times have you been discussing Elton Brown with other UVa fans and the tone quickly becomes harsh, negative and critical? It's not just the fringe fans who feel that way. Even the fans who really, really want to root for Brown have a hard time cheering him on.
Brown ranks 20th on Virginia's career scoring list.
Why is that? After all, this is a player who goes into his final home game tonight against N.C. State with 1,329 points and 472 rebounds. He is one of the top 20 scorers in UVa history. On this team, he is the top rebounder (8.6 rpg) and No. 2 scorer (13.8 ppg). Numbers like that usually draw cheers, not jeers.
Yet Brown doesn't seem to get any credit for dramatically improving as a rebounder this season. He doesn't get praised for slimming down since his sophomore season and becoming a better athlete. He doesn't get props for being an effective low-post scorer. Or does he? Honestly, I think most fans acknowledge those positive traits, but they can't help noticing all the negative ones, too.
Here's a partial list of "What's Bad About Elton Brown." Let's call it a Top 5, or maybe a Bottom 5.
5) He's a bad defender. Athletic big men blow past Brown or jump over him. He's not intense or aggressive. He doesn't block shots or make steals. He's a liability in man-to-man defense because he can't (won't?) guard anybody, and he's a liability in the zone because he doesn't move well enough to cover the area from the low block to the 3-point line.
Brown has more than twice as many turnovers as assists.
4) He's a bad passer. If Brown would just make good decisions and deliver crisp, accurate passes out of double teams, the Cavalier offense would be infinitely better. He doesn't. Usually he tries to force a shot in those situations (often getting it blocked). Or he makes a bad decision and turns it over. Or his pass is just a little too soft or a little too errant, putting the shooter out of rhythm or giving the defense too much time to recover.
3) He's a bad free-throw shooter. For a player who gets fouled a lot, Brown doesn't make the hackers pay. He's a career 59.5% free-throw shooter, 56.1% this season. His 10 missed foul shots killed the Cavs last week against Maryland. OK, Shaq's worse, but Shaq makes up for it by being superior in other ways. Brown doesn't.
2) He has a bad attitude. On the court, anyway, he sulks when things aren't going his way. He whines at officials. He pouts when he's benched. I've seen him curse out J.R. Reynolds for not passing him the ball. He got into an argument with Gary Forbes during the last game against Wake Forest. His body language and facial expressions don't exude toughness, resolve and determination. This is a team captain?
1) He's a bad dresser. One sock pulled up to the knee, the other down by the ankle. The shirt barely tucked in. The droopy drawers. The mouthguard falling out of his mouth. Some fans find the whole look disgusting. I'd call it kind of ridiculous. Come on, Elton. Sloppy isn't in anymore, haven't you heard?
I'm half-joking about the last item on the list, but I do think Brown's appearance makes it difficult for fans to relate to him. That, in turn, makes it easier for them to disparage him. That's not entirely fair, and some of the vitriol directed toward Brown has been vicious and unjustified. He's not a criminal. I don't even think he's a bad guy. But I'm also not going to sit here and argue that he's simply misunderstood, that he's unappreciated and getting a raw deal (which is what Elton seems to think, judging from his comments in today's Daily Progress). He's not. In many ways, Brown has brought this upon himself.
Undaunted by criticism, Brown has never been a shy shooter.
After all, he may have lost a lot of weight, but it's evident that he hasn't put in the hard work necessary to become a great player. His strength and stamina remain subpar for a college post player. His shooting touch has gotten worse, not better. Naturally, that disappoints fans who expect players to improve over the course of their careers, especially players who display the skills and talent that Brown flashed early in his career.
Most fans, I think, recognize skill and talent, but they respect and admire other qualities - a solid command of fundamentals, a team-first attitude, positive energy and competitive toughness. Above all, fans love a winner, and Brown hasn't done enough of that during his time as a Cavalier.
Indeed, the program has gone downhill since Brown arrived in the fall of 2001. The previous season, Virginia won 20 games, went 9-7 in the ACC and made the NCAA tournament. In Brown's four seasons, the Cavs have not received an NCAA bid. They have gone 7-9, 6-10, 6-10 and 4-10 (with two games left) in league play. And their fans have become increasingly disaffected and frustrated.
In the past two years, that frustration has been directed toward the two people whom fans hold most responsible - Gillen and Brown. It's hard to argue with faulting Gillen; he's the guy in charge. But is Brown also serving as a scapegoat for the team's failures? To some extent, yes.
There's no question that Brown isn't the only reason for UVa's troubles. You could argue that his classmates were just as destructive. Look at the other members of that 2001 recruiting class (“The Class That Doomed Pete Gillen”). Keith Jenifer, Jermaine Harper and Jason Clark couldn't even stick it out for four years. Brown is the only one still around, so he's an easy target. After all, you can't boo guys who aren't on the court. Other issues, such as injuries, attrition and a recruiting dropoff, have brought the Virginia basketball program to its knees.
What really aggravates many fans, though, is that Brown has been part of the problem, not part of the solution. The perception, at least, is that he should be better. He thinks of himself as an All-ACC caliber player, but there are 30 guys in the conference I'd choose over him. In addition to that inflated self-opinion and wasted potential, Brown's attitude and behavior also seem to get worse whenever the team struggles. On Sunday he sucker-punched Wake's Kyle Visser in the side while the two ran downcourt. He also elbowed Chris Paul in the head, knocking him to the ground after Paul had already been fouled on the play. Neither incident was vicious (in fact, neither drew whistles) but both were cheap shots. Just another reason to dislike Elton Brown, right?
Will Cavalier fans decide to boo Brown on Senior Night?
So should fans boo him tonight? That was a subject of considerable discussion on the message boards Sunday and Monday, and I have no idea how fans will react when Brown is introduced with his mother before tonight's game. But I would hope most fans decide not to stoop so low as to humiliate Elton Brown on an occasion that is emotional and special for any college athlete.
Sure, he doesn't deserve a standing ovation. He may not even warrant a hearty round of applause. I know some fans believe that any show of support for Brown is tantamount to condoning his lackluster effort and poor attitude over the years. By booing Brown, they think they're standing up for the ideals and standards that we ought to expect of a UVa student-athlete.
But I think those people are missing the point of the Senior Night ceremony. It's not Judgment Day. It's not a referendum on a player's career. If it was, many players would get booed before their final home game, but I've never heard of that happening to anyone, anywhere. To me, if Brown receives a chorus of boos, it would say more about the fans than it would about Brown. Frankly, it would show that they're classless at best, cruel and mean-spirited at worst. Elton Brown isn't a professional athlete. He's a college student who is on course to receive his degree in anthropology, a young man who grew up without a father and has matured (maybe not as much as we'd like) during his time at UVa, a guy who deserves the decency of a polite sendoff.
If you can't bring yourself to clap politely for Elton Brown, just sit on your hands. But no matter what, please don't boo a 'Hoo.
http://www.thesabre.com/news_archive/showArticle-1054.php
ASUCHRIS
ONE HEART BEAT!!!
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If he's half the player that his cousin is (Elton Brown), he is going to be a force.
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