Black Tuesday

[scotsman13]

in past years the first day of free agent signing has been a day that the suns have done very well, not this year. whoevers fault it the lost of joe johnson hurts the suns. so let this day be know as Black Tuesday for all the suns fans who have stood by this team.

 

[King A]

don't be so negative, it can all turn out pretty well. like it somehow always does with the suns.
actually I'm kind of excited about Diaw.

 

[Djaughe]

in past years the first day of free agent signing has been a day that the suns have done very well, not this year. whoevers fault it the lost of joe johnson hurts the suns. so let this day be know as Black Tuesday for all the suns fans who have stood by this team.

Aww common!

Folks are just getting a little too sensitive about JJ...

 

[scotsman13]

don't be so negative, it can all turn out pretty well. like it somehow always does with the suns.
actually I'm kind of excited about Diaw.

on history's Black Tuesday the only thing we lost were a bunch of dumb stock brokers who jumped out of windows. who cares about stock broker anyway? here we are losing one of the best young shooting guards in the nba. the last time something like this happened to the suns they lost mcdyess who went on to have a 20 and 10 season. what is JJ going to do with the ball in his hands?


btw king i think i am safe to say i am thought of as one of the big homers on this board, but this whole issue is one big mess for everyone. the suns lost a very nice player. the hawks gets a player as a point guard who doesnt make others better (but they had to get someone), JJ loses out and experancing playoff basketball, and most important the fans lose out on having one of the best teams that valley as ever seen. whats not to be negative about? you think that a 4 point a game player is going to come in and magically score 17 a game and shot 48% from 3? not going to happen.

 

[King A]

on history's Black Tuesday the only thing we lost were a bunch of dumb stock brokers who jumped out of windows. who cares about stock broker anyway? here we are losing one of the best young shooting guards in the nba. the last time something like this happened to the suns they lost mcdyess who went on to have a 20 and 10 season. what is JJ going to do with the ball in his hands?

sure, that was like 1929 way before the NBA was founded.

the suns lost a very nice player. the hawks gets a player as a point guard who doesnt make others better (but they had to get someone), JJ loses out and experancing playoff basketball, and most important the fans lose out on having one of the best teams that valley as ever seen.

You're totally right. JJ ain't a PG, but he wants to be the man. So let him go.
You will eventually he'll be sorry, just like McDyess was. You should never ever mess with the Suns, the real first-class-organisation in NBA history.

Sure it's sad for the fans, but in the long run, the way the 03-04 Suns were playing does not necessarily pay off. The Mavs made that experience and the Suns don't need to make it too.
Trading Q for KT was the first move to emphasize more on defense and keeping Amare happy not being listed as a Center.

whats not to be negative about? you think that a 4 point a game player is going to come in and magically score 17 a game and shot 48% from 3? not going to happen.

sure, he's not ready to put up those numbers, but i think he will be fine eventually. Our systems suits him more than Atlanta's and he might end up as a valueable asset in a few years. He's said of that the Suns liked him like forever, and we know, when the suns like someone, he's probably going to end up a good player (ok, the suns liked eisley also....).

And after all, we are suddenly very deep at the 2 and 3.
Bell, JJax, Diaw, Barbs and possibly another FA acquisition.

It's not like these people are crap. They are decent players.
And each given the right playing time, these people contribute in combined minutes as much as JJ I say. Plus they got 30 fouls, not just 6

 

[simply_amare]

I like your posted pic here Djaughe! Very funny! Made me laugh on this proclaimed Black Tuesday.

That guy on the pic has JJ's personality, over sensitive. Self-pitty stuff. They're definitely alike.

 

[Dustbuster]

And after all, we are suddenly very deep at the 2 and 3.
Bell, JJax, Diaw, Barbs and possibly another FA acquisition.

It's not like these people are crap. They are decent players.
And each given the right playing time, these people contribute in combined minutes as much as JJ I say. Plus they got 30 fouls, not just 6

A couple of minor quibbles: first, how is trading two 40 minute G/Fs away that average over 30 points, 10 rebounds, and 6 assists between them away for one 20 minute per game and one 17 minute per game SG that have averaged half the points, half the rebounds, and half the assists make us "suddenly very deep"? I understand wanting to put a positive spin on this, but if anything, we are much thinner at the SG/SF position following the trades of JJ and Q. We are replacing each of them with inferior players (although to me Bell probably has more value overall than Q). But Diaw vs. JJ? Come-on!!!! You don't replace two starters with two backups and get deeper without adding a lot more to replace that output. In JJ we lost both our fulltime SG and our backup PG.

Secondly, since we have added no more players to the SG/SF rotation than what we had, we have no more fouls to give. And that was never our problem anyway. Although JJ was a very good defender, he was very stingy with his fouls. He averaged only 2 per game although often covering the other team's best guard. That's why he could be on the floor for over 40 minutes per game. Adding fouls means absolutely nothing. If anything, it is likely we will be using more fouls in the guard position, which we DON'T want to do.

 

[King A]

A couple of minor quibbles: first, how is trading two 40 minute G/Fs away that average over 30 points, 10 rebounds, and 6 assists between them away for one 20 minute per game and one 17 minute per game SG that have averaged half the points, half the rebounds, and half the assists make us "suddenly very deep"? I understand wanting to put a positive spin on this, but if anything, we are much thinner at the SG/SF position following the trades of JJ and Q. We are replacing each of them with inferior players (although to me Bell probably has more value overall than Q). But Diaw vs. JJ? Come-on!!!! You don't replace two starters with two backups and get deeper without adding a lot more to replace that output. In JJ we lost both our fulltime SG and our backup PG.

Secondly, since we have added no more players to the SG/SF rotation than what we had, we have no more fouls to give. And that was never our problem anyway. Although JJ was a very good defender, he was very stingy with his fouls. He averaged only 2 per game although often covering the other team's best guard. That's why he could be on the floor for over 40 minutes per game. Adding fouls means absolutely nothing. If anything, it is likely we will be using more fouls in the guard position, which we DON'T want to do.

Well: since Shawn will be back at his natural position, the big to fill is:
starting SG, backup PG and backup SF.

As posted by me in another thread Bell is a pretty good player, so he can start at the 2 spot.
Backup PG, well, that's still a bit of work, I'm not sold on Diaw. But, Diaw and Barbs
And backup SF: JJax and/or Bell.

Anyhow it doesn't really matter. You got a few guys for a few positions.
SG and SF may blur together as maybe will the PF and C position with KT and Amare.

 

[Joe Mama]

A couple of minor quibbles: first, how is trading two 40 minute G/Fs away that average over 30 points, 10 rebounds, and 6 assists between them away for one 20 minute per game and one 17 minute per game SG that have averaged half the points, half the rebounds, and half the assists make us "suddenly very deep"? I understand wanting to put a positive spin on this, but if anything, we are much thinner at the SG/SF position following the trades of JJ and Q. We are replacing each of them with inferior players (although to me Bell probably has more value overall than Q). But Diaw vs. JJ? Come-on!!!! You don't replace two starters with two backups and get deeper without adding a lot more to replace that output. In JJ we lost both our fulltime SG and our backup PG.

Secondly, since we have added no more players to the SG/SF rotation than what we had, we have no more fouls to give. And that was never our problem anyway. Although JJ was a very good defender, he was very stingy with his fouls. He averaged only 2 per game although often covering the other team's best guard. That's why he could be on the floor for over 40 minutes per game. Adding fouls means absolutely nothing. If anything, it is likely we will be using more fouls in the guard position, which we DON'T want to do.

of course the argument is that these players will step up once they get into this offense. I don't think anybody is saying that Diaw is as good as JJ. If he was Atlanta probably would have kept him and save themselves $13 million per season. The Phoenix Suns also got a couple decent draft picks and a trade exception that they can use in another deal.

BTW the players we got this summer averaged half as many points because as you pointed out they didn't play as many minutes. The difference would it look quite so large if you prorated their scoring over the same time.

Joe Mama

 

[jlove]

Dust, we have better depth. Compare the stats of Q and JJ in 2003-2004 to those of Diaw, Bell, and Padgett in 2004-2005 and tell me if you see any similarities. Nash makes everyone better. PERIOD!!! We still have 4 starters, at least that demand respect from their postitions as shooters. So Diaw, Bell and Padgett should see their stats increase dramatically, depending on playing time.

 

[Dustbuster]

My point is that you don't replace starters with an equal number of backups and suddenly proclaim that you have more depth. You don't. The only difference between this team and the one we theoretically had a week ago is that we now have Diaw instead of JJ...and that is not adding depth, that is losing it.

 

[jlove]

I understand that. However, we have added depth to our bench, plus given ourselves cap flexibility to make moves to make our team better all around rather than just having a great starting 5.

 

[King A]

I understand that. However, we have added depth to our bench, plus given ourselves cap flexibility to make moves to make our team better all around rather than just having a great starting 5.

that's right, when you have a deep bench or at least a potent bench, you don't need -like in our case- 5 top tier starters.
I.E.: A not-so-good starting SG is allright, as long there's someone good on the bench

 

[JPlay]

This team is turning into a very boring half-court team of undynamic players. I wanted a big man to help rebound and play D and a defensive wing to help against Ginobli and other penetrating guards, but not as starters. We need some serious outside shooting and some young studs who can take it to the hoop.

Damn I miss Q and JJ already. What happened to this dynamic team that was re-writing the way basketball was played.

 

[newfan101]

I understand wanting to put a positive spin on this, but if anything, we are much thinner at the SG/SF position following the trades of JJ and Q. We are replacing each of them with inferior players (although to me Bell probably has more value overall than Q). But Diaw vs. JJ? Come-on!!!! You don't replace two starters with two backups and get deeper without adding a lot more to replace that output. In JJ we lost both our fulltime SG and our backup PG.

Bingo. At this point all we have done is replace JJ with Diaw and Q with Bell. How that translates into "Deeper" at SG/SF is beyond me as well. We are technically one player "thinner" at this point, because until Diaw shows that he can play consistant minutes, he should be considered a deep bench project.

Now, if the Suns go out and get Finley, and Diaw suddenly becomes Bruce Bowen by playing with Nash, then I will agree that we got deeper. But lets actaully see these things happen before trying to spin losing two starters on a 62 win team in a positive direction.

 

[clif]

This team is turning into a very boring half-court team of undynamic players. I wanted a big man to help rebound and play D and a defensive wing to help against Ginobli and other penetrating guards, but not as starters. We need some serious outside shooting and some young studs who can take it to the hoop.

Damn I miss Q and JJ already. What happened to this dynamic team that was re-writing the way basketball was played.

They were getting their ass handed to them by San Antonio. People seem to forget that Q had "0" points his last game as a Sun.

JJ... we will miss his game, but yes I do believe overall the team will be deeper by the other moves made and ones yet to come.

 

[fordronken]

This team is turning into a very boring half-court team of undynamic players. I wanted a big man to help rebound and play D and a defensive wing to help against Ginobli and other penetrating guards, but not as starters. We need some serious outside shooting and some young studs who can take it to the hoop.

Damn I miss Q and JJ already. What happened to this dynamic team that was re-writing the way basketball was played.

Yeah, all of a sudden the Suns are going to be a boring team with undynamic players. Are you freakin' kidding me? Last I checked we still had Steve Nash, Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire. Boring? Really, are you kidding me? If we get four less three attempts per game and replace them with a few stops and rebounds, I think I'll survive.

 

[Chaplin]

Everyone also needs to remember--in today's NBA, which position is the easiest to replace?

That's right, the swingman position. I still am not thrilled with the trade, but I'm not as unhappy about it as I was yesterday, especially after hearing how big of an idiot Joe Johnson really is.

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah, all of a sudden the Suns are going to be a boring team with undynamic players. Are you freakin' kidding me? Last I checked we still had Steve Nash, Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire. Boring? Really, are you kidding me? If we get four less three attempts per game and replace them with a few stops and rebounds, I think I'll survive.

I thought that was funny too. Who were the LEAST exciting members of our starting 5. Yup, JJ and Q.

 

[cly2tw]

This team is turning into a very boring half-court team of undynamic players. I wanted a big man to help rebound and play D and a defensive wing to help against Ginobli and other penetrating guards, but not as starters. We need some serious outside shooting and some young studs who can take it to the hoop.

Damn I miss Q and JJ already. What happened to this dynamic team that was re-writing the way basketball was played.

Q was dynamite. I'll give you that. But Joe? If he were, Stackhouse'd never have caught him up on that dunk leading to the injury in the first place!

 

[newfan101]

I thought that was funny too. Who were the LEAST exciting members of our starting 5. Yup, JJ and Q.

I'm as negative as anyone on this board about this turn of events, but I completely agree with this as well.

With Nash, Amare and Marion, we will be anything BUT boring.

 

[playstation]

Everyone also needs to remember--in today's NBA, which position is the easiest to replace?

That's right, the swingman position. I still am not thrilled with the trade, but I'm not as unhappy about it as I was yesterday, especially after hearing how big of an idiot Joe Johnson really is.

THAT WAS ALL SPIN! nothing that you heard has been substantiated other than what JJ said to ESPN and the toronto radio station. everything else is what the Suns said. What else are they going to say??? 'um, sorry fans, our owner is just real cheap, and was looking for a way out, and, um, joe opened his mouth and gave him a way out'.

i'm not saying that the suns are lying for sure, but they sure would have a reason to, as would JJ. we don't know what happened. the only bottom line is that we are not as good now as we were 72 hours ago, and that hurts because 72 hours ago we were good enough to win a championship. now, not so much.

nash, amare, shawn. all great. will lead us to many wins. we won't beat san antonio. we might have with jj. that's all i know, that's all that matters at this point.

 

[Joe Mama]

I think a large part of the blame for this debacle should fall directly on Sarver. I do think it's a bit unfair that people keep calling him "cheap" because of this. He may be cheap around the office and other parts of the organization, but he did spend the big money to get Steve Nash and Q (even if that was ill advised).

It was a mistake not to re-sign JJ last year, but I wouldn't call him "cheap" for not wanting to pay JJ that ridiculous contract.

Joe Mama

 

[clif]

I think a large part of the blame for this debacle should fall directly on Sarver. I do think it's a bit unfair that people keep calling him "cheap" because of this. He may be cheap around the office and other parts of the organization, but he did spend the big money to get Steve Nash and Q (even if that was ill advised).

It was a mistake not to re-sign JJ last year, but I wouldn't call him "cheap" for not wanting to pay JJ that ridiculous contract.

Joe Mama

I can buy that. I would have no problem in thinking that Sarver should have signed JJ last year.. but he really had not earned it. I think the bigger mistake was giving Q all that money.

 

[JS22]

THAT WAS ALL SPIN! nothing that you heard has been substantiated other than what JJ said to ESPN and the toronto radio station. everything else is what the Suns said. What else are they going to say??? 'um, sorry fans, our owner is just real cheap, and was looking for a way out, and, um, joe opened his mouth and gave him a way out'.

i'm not saying that the suns are lying for sure, but they sure would have a reason to, as would JJ. we don't know what happened. the only bottom line is that we are not as good now as we were 72 hours ago, and that hurts because 72 hours ago we were good enough to win a championship. now, not so much.

nash, amare, shawn. all great. will lead us to many wins. we won't beat san antonio. we might have with jj. that's all i know, that's all that matters at this point.

Really? You think so?

This team as it stands right now would probably go 6-7 with SA, possibly winning. Not to mention if Finley signs. Suddenly the Suns are EXTREMELY deep, and actually have a defense. Arent those the two things that blew the series? No defense, and no bench?