Blake, Gramatica... the list will grow

[kerouac9]

Get over yourselves, people: KVB Blows

If a second-round pick is going to sit 4th on your depth chart and will be battling a one-time Undrafted Free Agent (Wakefield) for a roster spot come training camp, he's a bust.

Over 19 starts in three years(!), KVB has 48 tackles, 4 sacks, and 1 pass defensed. He got a better contract as a rookie than Anquan. He's not a solid stater (a solid starter will do something special once in a while). He was getting manhandled in camp by a 6th round rookie out of Clarion.

So, he can't get to the quarterback, he doesn't make tackles, he can't stay on the field, and he now has two creaky knees (and no, reconstructed knees do not come back stronger; just ask Terrell Davis about that). This guy is a loser. You know what people that "produce big during preseason" are called? 6th round picks. Valuable players don't generally play enough during the preseason on "produce big."

To KVB:

I feel bad for Martin. I think that Graves wanted his "find" (Rackers) to have a job without competition. Hopefully, we won't have to win many games on a last-second FG in the future, because I'm not sure you can depend on ol' Neil to do that. Also, it was probably a good idea to have a fluent Spanish speaker on your roster for P.R. purposes until you have to let him go. Oh, well. Another high Mac draft pick down the tubes.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Say what you will about the guys health, but to say he couldn't stop the run is just ********.

He just hasn't shown an ability to get to the passer after his first injury. According to reports, Reggie Wells was pushing him aaaaaall over the place in practice, and now he has had a second major knee injury. Certainly bring him to camp, but certainly do not bank on a major contribution from him.

 

[HoodieBets]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Say what you will about the guys health, but to say he couldn't stop the run is just ********.

Didn't you notice how he was always behind the guy when he got the tackle. He over persues way too much and lets the guy get by him. I personally have never seen him stop a guy at the line, he was always chasing from behind. The only good thing about him is he never quits but thats about it. I'm sorry but i just understand all the love for KVB. He has not proven is a good DE and until he does i will always doubt him.

BTW does anyone here think he should start next year if healthy? That is if we dont sign a DE. IMO he is 3rd on the depth chart right now at DE behind DJ and Pace.

 

[Renz]

Re: Get over yourselves, people: KVB Blows

Originally posted by kerouac9
Also, it was probably a good idea to have a fluent Spanish speaker on your roster for P.R. purposes until you have to let him go.

Brilliant thinking!

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by azcardsfan1616
BTW does anyone here think he should start next year if healthy? That is if we dont sign a DE. IMO he is 3rd on the depth chart right now at DE behind DJ and Pace.

I'd start Pace and Johnson at this point. No dispute there.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Say what you will about the guys health, but to say he couldn't stop the run is just ********.

Not like the way that Simeon Rice/Dwight Freeney can't/won't stop the run, of course. But in the way that someone like, say, Courtney Brown (18.5 career STF in 45 starts) can stop the run, well, the comparison is a little stunning (KVB: 8 STF in career).

I think the point that he's trying to make is that KVB was pitifully awful at rushing the passer (though his 12 career sacks at Nebraska kind of spoke to that in advance), and merely mediocre at stopping the run, makes for a pretty weak defense of his bonus, salary, or draft place.

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Get over yourselves, people: KVB Blows

Originally posted by Renz
Brilliant thinking!

Nice. Who do you think might be more able to connect with the community in "outreach" efforts in Guadalupe or the West or South sides? KVB? Wakefield? McCown?

Believe it or not, Grammatica's cultural heritage could have been a tool for the Cards to get a couple more butts in the seats.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I think the point that he's trying to make is that KVB was pitifully awful at rushing the passer (though his 12 career sacks at Nebraska kind of spoke to that in advance), and merely mediocre at stopping the run, makes for a pretty weak defense of his bonus, salary, or draft place.

No problems there.

But to call the guy a "loser"? He wasn't on the field due to his lack of plays, he wasn't on the field because of injuries. And comparing his numbers to a #1 pick is a little bit of a stretch.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
No problems there.

But to call the guy a "loser"? He wasn't on the field due to his lack of plays, he wasn't on the field because of injuries. And comparing his numbers to a #1 pick is a little bit of a stretch.

I'm sorry, but the NFL is a tough place. I'm sure that KVB is a good person, but from an NFL personnel perspective, the guy is a loser. The one season where he has been healthy (2002) he was a total non-factor.

It is unfair to compare KVB to Brown. Robert Porcher has had 13 STFs since 2000. Calvin Pace had 4 last season. Fred Wakefield has 9.5 in his career.

 

[Redheart]

Re: Get over yourselves, people: KVB Blows

Originally posted by kerouac9
... and he now has two creaky knees (and no, reconstructed knees do not come back stronger; just ask Terrell Davis about that)....

K9, you are such a hypocrite. When talking about Starks and his ACL, it is no big deal; no big deal for a 30+ year-old, injury-prone, FA bust that you insist on calling the best CB we have. Based on what performance in Cardinal Red I would like to know.

You call KVB a "loser" when all the guy has done is play and practice with everything he has got. Starks is a loser; sitting on the bench, taking it easy and licking his hamstring. Talk about wasted money! For the money we have thrown at Starks we should all be screaming.

Starks is the next cut that I want. "Who do we replace him with" you ask. Anybody who is practising and playing would be better than what he has shown sitting on the sideline; but there are better FA available for his money I am sure; hell, all they have to do is practise and play to contribute more than he ever did.

 

[SECTION 11]

Again, for the visually challenged.

It took KVB all of TWO games to record a sack in his rookie year.
12 tackles, one sack, one pass defensed in his first two games.

3.5 sacks and 36 tackles in his first season back from major knee surgery.

Meanwhile, Wendell Bryant, who somehow is NOT worth giving up on in your eyes 1.5 sacks and only 27 tackles in TWICE AS MANY GAMES.

Nobody here has ANY IDEA what his career would have been like. The one thing they do, or at least should know, is that on and off the field he's been anything but a "loser."

Granted, he hasn't outplayed the overall #1 pick in Courtney Brown. He HAS however outplayed Bryant (Mr. Potential) by a LONG SHOT. Not even close.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Courtney Brown (18.5 career STF in 45 starts)

(KVB: 8 STF in career).

Per game;

2.43 for the #1 pick
vs
2.375 for the #34 pick

You need another stat.


Granted, we should have taken Dominic Raiola at #34, but hey, what can you do?

 

[HoodieBets]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Again, for the visually challenged.

It took KVB all of TWO games to record a sack in his rookie year.
12 tackles, one sack, one pass defensed in his first two games.

3.5 sacks and 36 tackles in his first season back from major knee surgery.

Meanwhile, Wendell Bryant, who somehow is NOT worth giving up on in your eyes 1.5 sacks and only 27 tackles in TWICE AS MANY GAMES.

Nobody here has ANY IDEA what his career would have been like. The one thing they do, or at least should know, is that on and off the field he's been anything but a "loser."

Granted, he hasn't outplayed the overall #1 pick in Courtney Brown. He HAS however outplayed Bryant (Mr. Potential) by a LONG SHOT. Not even close.

Not fair to compare a DE to a DT especially in the defense we use to run.

 

[JeffGollin]

I view KVB, Starks and Wendell in the same way.

All have had careers set back due to injuries, holdouts, bad coaching etc. so that we haven't seen them fulfill their promise.

But, while it would sure be nice if they did, the Cardinals cannot afford to wait for this to happen - because maybe it never will. So other guys will have to step up, and if we don't have ones who can get the job done, we'll have to go out find those who will.

I haven't written any of these guys off - I think KVB could turn out to be a pretty good pass rusher and Wendell could finally come out of his shell in Year 3. And maybe (maybe!) a healthy Starks will be able to show the fans why we signed him up in the first place.

But the team would be crazy to bet the farm on it.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by azcardsfan1616
Not fair to compare a DE to a DT especially in the defense we use to run.

But it IS fair to base your analysis on a player coming off major knee surgery?

That's a convenient I suppose, because if you base your analysis off of the actual healthy part of his career, you'd look pretty foolish.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by azcardsfan1616
Not fair to compare a DE to a DT especially in the defense we use to run.

In a read and react defense I'd say that all four of the linemen have pretty much the same opportunity to make a play.

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Get over yourselves, people: KVB Blows

Originally posted by Redheart
K9, you are such a hypocrite. When talking about Starks and his ACL, it is no big deal; no big deal for a 30+ year-old, injury-prone, FA bust that you insist on calling the best CB we have. Based on what performance in Cardinal Red I would like to know.

I'm sorry, I guess when I point to Starks's production, I can point to his 10 starts, 48 solo tackles, and two picks in 10 games as a starter for the Cards as a #1 cornerback with no help from the worst pass-rush in the NFL. That's only three fewer tackles than KVB has had for his career as a Card. As well as his four previous injury-free seasons with the Ravens, including a Super Bowl championship.

Again, Starks is the best cornerback on the roster. KVB is maybe the third-best DE on the roster, but I could make an arguement for King and Wakefield being better than him as well as having a better track record for performance.

by the way, Redheart, Starks is only 29. He'll turn 30 in May. If you have some personal axe to grind on this guy, I'll leave you to fume on him at your leisure. If you have a football point to make about Duane, I'll debate it with you. He remains far and away a better player than KVB.

Sec, you're right. It took KVB two games to get a sack. Against the Falcons, headed by Chris Chandler and one of the worst offensive lines in football. I think that Wendell Bryant, after only two years, is not a good candidate to be given up on. He was injured and shuttled between positions after a good start in 2003. I think that 2004 will be a make-or-break year for him. If he sucks in 2004 from the beginning, I'll be the first to call for his release.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
That's a convenient I suppose, because if you base your analysis off of the actual healthy part of his career, you'd look pretty foolish.

I guess that the healthy parts of both careers are about the same (Bryant about three games in 2003 before high-ankle sprain, KVB about three games before catastrophic knee injury). I would say, looking at how Bryant was on a weaker D-line against better competition, that Bryant did better. You're free to disagree.

Jeff:

I think KVB could turn out to be a pretty good pass rusher

Is there anything but well-wishing behind this? He had 12 sacks in his career at Nebraska. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that KVB can ever turn into a "pretty good pass rusher." He hasn't been in his entire career.

 

[SECTION 11]

Or said another way, KVB played with no support on the line with one of the worst secondaries in the NFL behind him.

And using your argument, Bryant gets NO excuses for his injuries, because when healthy to start his career as a rookie, KVB made plays from the get go.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Bryant about three games in 2003 before high-ankle sprain

Help me out here, because I think you're insane.

 

[SECTION 11]

Put KVB's first three games as a rookie against any three games in Bryant's career. There's no comparison as to who made plays and who didn't.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by kerouac9
IJeff:



Is there anything but well-wishing behind this? He had 12 sacks in his career at Nebraska. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that KVB can ever turn into a "pretty good pass rusher." He hasn't been in his entire career.

I actually agree with you here on KVB. I think the reason you're getting such opposition is the use of the word loser.

If you mean starting guys like KVB at RDE are the hallmark of a losing team, I would probably agree, but saying "he's a loser" has a different meaning to most of us.

I also agree about Starks, he played hurt his whole first year for us and got ripped here while playing in obvious pain. Then he blows out his ACL and he's a bad guy? He was our best CB 2 years ago while playing hurt, hopefully he can come back but small guys built for speed can have a tough time coming back from that sort of injury.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
I actually agree with you here on KVB. I think the reason you're getting such opposition is the use of the word loser.

I think it's because of the same arguments used against KVB are used in Bryant's defense.
Calling him a loser because he blew his knee out is a little weak as well.

 

[kerouac9]

Sec: I don't remember exactly, but wasn't Mark Smith still on the team in the 2001 season? Who else was playing on the D-line?

That being said, I'm not real sure that who is in the secondary behind a D-lineman really has too big an effect on the play of that lineman. Having a bad secondary never really hurt Leonard Little's production. Nor Bruce Smith's.

By the way, if you look at your little link, Bryant had 1.5 sacks in his third NFL game, without the benefit of training camps and preseason games that KVB got. Does that make him better than KVB?

Bryant suffered the high-ankle sprain in the 3rd game of the 2003 season. After coming back from that, he was moved all around the defensive line, and was never the same. I agree that it's hard to gauge "disruption" or "push" from the middle of the D-line on the stat sheet, but I was watching him especially early in the season, and he sure seemed to be the best player on our D-line before he got hurt.

Perhaps I got a little personal in calling KVB a "loser". I'm sorry about that; I take it back. He's just a bad draft pick and a below-average NFL defensive end.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Put KVB's first three games as a rookie against any three games in Bryant's career. There's no comparison as to who made plays and who didn't.

It's not possible to compare the contributions of an end and a tackle in any system. Compare KVB's first three games as a rookies to any three games in Ted Washington's career and KVB looks like Simeon Rice, Dwight Freeney, and Jevon Kearse combined.