Boris or Jalen Rose?
- Thread starter TucsonDevil
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It is odd hearing the comments about Boris, since I was one of the very very few who suggested last summer he was being overpaid with the contract he got. I really like Boris and think his contributions can get overlooked, but I think it is clear that he would not be as valuable to any other team.
No team with cap space would have broken the bank to get Boris even with the stats he had a year ago. Suns stats don't translate.
Look at what's happened with Tim Thomas. Last year with the Suns he averaged 11.0 ppg on 43.5% shooting and 42.9% for three. This year he's shooting 42% from the field and 36.5% for three. He's not playing terribly, but his drop is easily attributed to the difference in playing styles and the absence of Steve Nash.
I'm not saying signing Boris was a mistake. He's a very talented player who could become a huge factor in the coming years, but the Suns probably overpaid based on the likely market.
No team with cap space would have broken the bank to get Boris even with the stats he had a year ago. Suns stats don't translate.
Look at what's happened with Tim Thomas. Last year with the Suns he averaged 11.0 ppg on 43.5% shooting and 42.9% for three. This year he's shooting 42% from the field and 36.5% for three. He's not playing terribly, but his drop is easily attributed to the difference in playing styles and the absence of Steve Nash.
I'm not saying signing Boris was a mistake. He's a very talented player who could become a huge factor in the coming years, but the Suns probably overpaid based on the likely market.
I dont see a big problem with Boris except FT shooting. I do think he could be a little more aggressive too.
But I simply think he is the odd man out in the rotation from a numbers standpoint. Especially with all the talent around him.
But I simply think he is the odd man out in the rotation from a numbers standpoint. Especially with all the talent around him.
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elindholm
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I think most of us felt that Diaw was overpaid and wouldn't be as valuable to another team. But the Joe Johnson situation had many of us spooked that some team would offer big bucks just because they could, without really thinking about whether it made sense for them. Apparently Suns management felt the same way.
If we fast-forward to this coming summer, obviously no team would break the bank for Diaw now if he were to become a restricted free agent. So in that respect, the Suns miscalculated. On the other hand, maybe he would be more motivated this season if he knew his financial future was on the line. Would it be worth it to have gotten a better year out of Diaw this season if it meant paying him a lot more to keep him? That's hard to say.
If we fast-forward to this coming summer, obviously no team would break the bank for Diaw now if he were to become a restricted free agent. So in that respect, the Suns miscalculated. On the other hand, maybe he would be more motivated this season if he knew his financial future was on the line. Would it be worth it to have gotten a better year out of Diaw this season if it meant paying him a lot more to keep him? That's hard to say.
elindholm
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For the record, what you actually wrote was
This is pretty close to what I have expected for months. $40 million was probably too low considering that Barbosa got $33; but $50 million was still pretty steep for a center who averages only .19 rpm. $45 million feels like a reasonable value and makes Boris tradeable if it becomes necessary (a sad but true aspect of every signing). What is more important, it takes away a potentially significant distraction.
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green machine
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I think Diaw would be better on another team, or at least, his numbers would be better. Just like Joe Johnson, he would explode if he was "the guy" or the 2nd option, rather then being the 4th or 5th option he is here.
I think we saw it last season and especially in the playoffs. When Boris needed to take over a game and be dominant he seemingly could. This season the team hasn't needed him to do that (if his 'struggles' were costing the team then the Suns wouldn't be as successful as they are), but I have no doubt if they looked at Boris as the 1st or 2nd or maybe even 3rd option on offense he would produce.
And to think, he is getting better. He's shooting threes at a decent clip lately, so I don't think he's gotten lazy about improving. He's just working on different things, and if he can hit the three ball consistently then he will be THAT much tougher to guard and he will fit THAT much better in the current offense the Suns run.
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If the Suns overpaid for Diaw, they got a steal with Barbosa's contract. It all works out. Now if Banks could just live up to expectations.
Eric, I did feel that $45 was "high" for Boris, but considering how many were pushing for $50 million I was well on the conservative side. In any case, my analysis of Boris' game is much the same:
He's not quick enough to defense athletic small forwards
He's not a superior shooter
He's not strong enough to defend the low post
He's not a super jump athlete and a below average rebounder for an inside guy
He has a tendency to be passive
What makes him valuable is that he's a "team player, a passer with great vision, has great vision, posts up smaller players well, and plays well in an open court environment. Put him on a bad team (the only kind with lots of cap space) and it's the Hawks all over again.
He's not quick enough to defense athletic small forwards
He's not a superior shooter
He's not strong enough to defend the low post
He's not a super jump athlete and a below average rebounder for an inside guy
He has a tendency to be passive
What makes him valuable is that he's a "team player, a passer with great vision, has great vision, posts up smaller players well, and plays well in an open court environment. Put him on a bad team (the only kind with lots of cap space) and it's the Hawks all over again.
elindholm
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I agree with pretty much all of that, although apparently he is a "super jump athlete" in workouts. And I also agree that he wouldn't be very effective on a bad team. But, we've all seen how one idiot GM can ruin the summer's FA market for everyone. All things considered, I think the Suns probably made the right decision to avoid that scenario next summer.
Well put. I noticed the OP including Boris' numbers.
But the one thing he failed to put was Boris' shooting percentage. For the seasons he's shooting 53% FG and 32% 3P. In Novemeber he shot 57% FG and 33% 3P.
I think if he got more shooting opprotunities, his numbers would look about how people want them.
Nash, Marion, Amare, Raja, Barbs, Boris, Jr...thats alot of capable scorers. There's only one ball to go around.
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elindholm
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I think if he got more shooting opprotunities, his numbers would look about how people want them.
What do you mean, "if he got more" shooting opportunities? He passes up shooting opportunities all the time, very often to the detriment of the team. That's the problem. If you're open at the rim, finish the play.
What do you mean, "if he got more" shooting opportunities? He passes up shooting opportunities all the time, very often to the detriment of the team. That's the problem. If you're open at the rim, finish the play.
Though I agree he passes up on too many shots, he clearly is not getting the same number of touches. Last year he was told you are the only low post presence. This year he knows he's not. So there is no way even if he didn't pass on his shots that his numbers would be as good.
I just wish that when he did have those opportunities he would take them more often. I don't expect Diaw to be as good stat wise. However, I do personally feel he is slightly underachieved because of his lack of aggressiveness this season.
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Boris, no question
Errntknght
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azirish,
We have Marion to defend the quick small forwards and, in many cases, Raja can help there. But for the powerful small forwards - Rueben Patterson and Carmello recently - Diaw is our best defender. He even held Zach Randolf somewhat in check as far as driving to the hoop though Zach was nailing jumpers over him - as he was against everyone else who defended him. Its true he does get pushed around a bit by the biggest of the low post players but he's learning - drawing a fair number of offensive fouls on them - and he's getting stronger. Hopefully we get KT back soon to help in the low post but Diaw is not a major liability. D'Antoni tends to put him on the tougher low post player, though not always, which leaves Amare free to help from the weakside. This also allows Marion to defend whoever D'A wants to put him on - though, I do agree that the coaches have gotten carried away with Shawn defending PGs.
Diaw's shooting is continuing to improve and his range is increasing. He's also started to go to his left some this year with success so while he's not putting up big scoring numbers his offense is getting better and more varied. I have to admit I do wish he were more aggressive but he stepped it up when it was needed in the playoffs last year and I'm expecting him to do it again this year.
I don't think one could make a strong case for Diaw getting as many minutes as he is getting but Jalen Rose? No thanks. Jumaine is more likely to provide us with something needed than Jalen is and James Jones might benefit from more minutes by building his confidence. Personally, I'd rather see Banks getting minutes than Rose because he can defend guards fairly well and if he could get his jump shot untracked it wouldn't be so risky to put him on the floor. I'd like to see the coaches push him to be more aggressive in his D - send him out there with a mission... I just hate to see a sub give up an 'and 1'...
We have Marion to defend the quick small forwards and, in many cases, Raja can help there. But for the powerful small forwards - Rueben Patterson and Carmello recently - Diaw is our best defender. He even held Zach Randolf somewhat in check as far as driving to the hoop though Zach was nailing jumpers over him - as he was against everyone else who defended him. Its true he does get pushed around a bit by the biggest of the low post players but he's learning - drawing a fair number of offensive fouls on them - and he's getting stronger. Hopefully we get KT back soon to help in the low post but Diaw is not a major liability. D'Antoni tends to put him on the tougher low post player, though not always, which leaves Amare free to help from the weakside. This also allows Marion to defend whoever D'A wants to put him on - though, I do agree that the coaches have gotten carried away with Shawn defending PGs.
Diaw's shooting is continuing to improve and his range is increasing. He's also started to go to his left some this year with success so while he's not putting up big scoring numbers his offense is getting better and more varied. I have to admit I do wish he were more aggressive but he stepped it up when it was needed in the playoffs last year and I'm expecting him to do it again this year.
I don't think one could make a strong case for Diaw getting as many minutes as he is getting but Jalen Rose? No thanks. Jumaine is more likely to provide us with something needed than Jalen is and James Jones might benefit from more minutes by building his confidence. Personally, I'd rather see Banks getting minutes than Rose because he can defend guards fairly well and if he could get his jump shot untracked it wouldn't be so risky to put him on the floor. I'd like to see the coaches push him to be more aggressive in his D - send him out there with a mission... I just hate to see a sub give up an 'and 1'...
