Broncos 19 Cardinals 0: Game Notes and Roster Prediction

[Garthshort]

John H, while, in theory, I like you're opinion, that OC's belong up on top, our high scoring offense, last year, had ours, down on the field. So I'm guessing talent is more important.

 

[82CardsGrad]

It remains so incredibly mind-boggling that a team that came within 2:42 of winning the Super Bowl, that basically had to manufacture any semblance of a pass rush, and gave up 36 passing TDs, would do so little as the Cardinals did this off-season to improve that all-important area.

The Giants, who already featured one of the most prolific pass rushes in the league went out and signed Rocky Bernard , Chris Canty and Michael Boley.

The Panthers, who also have had one of the better pass rushes drafted DE Everette Brown and DT Corvey Irving...and still managed to pick up a blazer of a RB in Mike Goodson in the 4th round.

Even the Steelers grabbed DE Ziggy Hood and DE Ra'Shon Harris.

The Cardinals' leading sacker last year, Bertrand Berry, has a mere 5 sacks...and yet no free agent was signed...no trade was made, especially in the draft...if you go ahead and take Beanie Wells, don't you try to move up to take a pass rusher in the early to mid second round?

It is mind-boggling Mitch... I really don't get it at all... I am not nearly as expert on the moves that could've been made, yet I know that there were chances for the Cards to address this glaring weakness in a more concerted way than what was done. It's putrid. It's pathetic... It's sad...

 

[Mitch]

53 Man Roster Prediction

QB (3): Warner, Leinart, St. Pierre.

RB (4): Hightower, Wells, Stephens-Howling, Wright

FB (1): Kreider

WR (6): Fitzgerald, Boldin, Breaston, Urban, Doucet, Morey.

TE (3): Pope, Spach, Becht

(9): Gandy, Wells, Sendlein, Lutui, L. Brown, H. Johnson, Keith, Fowler, E. Brown.

NT (3): Robinson, Watson, Branch.

DE (3): Dockett, Campbell, Iwebema

ILB (4): Hayes, Dansby, Highsmith, Hobson (ILB/OLB)

OLB (4): Haggans, Okeafor, Davis, Berry

CB (5): Rodgers-Cromartie, McFadden, Adams, Toler, Brown

S (5): Wilson, Rolle, Francisco, Johnson, Ware

ST (3): Rackers, Graham, Leach

(53)

In past years, CC, I think you'd be right on every pick here. For some reason, this year feels different. Where the Cardinals have tolerated veteran apathy or underachievement in the past, this year I think some statements will be made...that and some waiver wire maneuverings and hopefully a trade or two.

 

[Mitch]

It is mind-boggling Mitch... I really don't get it at all... I am not nearly as expert on the moves that could've been made, yet I know that there were chances for the Cards to address this glaring weakness in a more concerted way than what was done. It's putrid. It's pathetic... It's sad...

The thing is 82...the Patriots had 4 2nd round draft picks that they were begging teams to trade for.

Another example: the Ravens. Maybe the best pass rush in the league overall, right? They draft DE/OLB Paul Kruger in the 2nd round ahead of the Cardinals, and I saw one of their pre-season games, and Kruger is playing a lot right away.

 

[CardLogic]

NT (3): Robinson, Watson, Branch. They will keep all three although neither Watson or Branch did enough, IMO, to safely secure or warrant roster spots.

Branch and Watson are totally ineffective.

I deliberately watched Watson in the game vs. the Broncos. He played pretty well last night. More push, holding the center of the line pretty well. He's coming back.

 

[PoolBoy]

I really hope Long doesn't make the roster. I'd rather see Onrea Jones make it, Long just does NOTHING to impress me at all.

 

[82CardsGrad]

The thing is 82...the Patriots had 4 2nd round draft picks that they were begging teams to trade for.

Another example: the Ravens. Maybe the best pass rush in the league overall, right? They draft DE/OLB Paul Kruger in the 2nd round ahead of the Cardinals, and I saw one of their pre-season games, and Kruger is playing a lot right away.

I would love to know what was going thru the minds of Graves and Whiz this past offseason. I mean, you can't tell me they were feeling cozy with Berry, Okeafor, Watson, Branch, Campbell, Iwebema?? And only Dansby as a proven playmaker at the LB position?? What the hell were they thinking?? What was the friggin plan??

 

[Duckjake]

I would love to know what was going thru the minds of Graves and Whiz this past offseason. I mean, you can't tell me they were feeling cozy with Berry, Okeafor, Watson, Branch, Campbell, Iwebema?? And only Dansby as a proven playmaker at the LB position?? What the hell were they thinking?? What was the friggin plan??

I think Cody Brown and Will Davis were the plan. It just goes to show the risk you take when you let veteran talent leave or pass it over in free agency and try to replace it in the draft. One the draft is a crapshoot and two you just don't know if the rookies will be ready to play.

 

[joeshmo]

The Giants, who already featured one of the most prolific pass rushes in the league went out and signed Rocky Bernard , Chris Canty and Michael Boley.

Bernard isnt a pash rusher, he will get your 3-4 sacks a year in a 4-3 scheme. As a 3-4 DE we just didnt have a need for him. Canty is a heavier version of Cambpell who will only get you 3 sacks a year, again not a pass rusher. Boley is a 220 pound weakling who has 6 sacks in 52 career starts. Those 3 moves were not made to improve their pass rush, becuuse none of them are pass rushers.

The Panthers, who also have had one of the better pass rushes drafted DE Everette Brown and DT Corvey Irving...and still managed to pick up a blazer of a RB in Mike Goodson in the 4th round.

Even the Steelers grabbed DE Ziggy Hood and DE Ra'Shon Harris.

I know this might be hard to believe but the Panthers pass rush was only slightly better then our own. 37 sacks in 557 attempts versus our 517 attempts and 31 sacks. Pressure was a problem for them, especially when Peppers would go into his invisible streaks that he is famous for. Brown is just as an unknown as our own 2nd rounder Brown, a shame he got injured. And Irving is just as much of an unknown as our 6th rounder Davis, so they did just as much as we did concerning pass rush. Both of Pitts picks were not made to help pass rush either, both not expected to contribute for a few years, like all of Pitts defensive rookies they pick every year. Carolina and Pitt are bad examples IMO to prove your point.

But your point remains the same. I dont think the Cards knew Berry was going to pack in the offseason. I think they put to much trust in ageing veterans. I think they put to much pressure on thinking blitzin Wilson and Dansby more often will correct things.

But free agency does not lend you the ability to find pass rush help and your examples dont prove otherwise. You either get very lucky which only happesn 1% of the time in free agency, you find a stupid team like the Chiefs, or you grow your own. Just look at all the pass rushers in the league, 95% of them were drafted by the team they are currently on.

The Cardinals' leading sacker last year, Bertrand Berry, has a mere 5 sacks...and yet no free agent was signed...no trade was made, especially in the draft...if you go ahead and take Beanie Wells, don't you try to move up to take a pass rusher in the early to mid second round?

Again there were no free agents to sign. Who trades good pass rushers besides the Chiefs? How do you know they didnt try and trade up? Going from 60's to 40's is not as easy of a task as some might think.

Note - I know that it is only preseason but Everette Brown has looked beastly so far. Would have lived to trade up to get him but I can't blast the FO for not getting him considering we dont know if they tried(it takes two to tango), and the task of trading up from 60 to 40 isnt easy at all.

 

[joeshmo]

The thing is 82...the Patriots had 4 2nd round draft picks that they were begging teams to trade for.

Another example: the Ravens. Maybe the best pass rush in the league overall, right? They draft DE/OLB Paul Kruger in the 2nd round ahead of the Cardinals, and I saw one of their pre-season games, and Kruger is playing a lot right away.

You act as if the Pats were just giving those away.

Plus the Pats were not begging to get rid of their 2nd rounders, they were trying to load up on 2nd rounders. In fact they traded up to #40. (Oakland traded its second-round selection (40th overall, used to select Ron Brace) to New England for a second-, a fourth- and a sixth-round selection (47th, 124th, 199th overall, respectively).

Also Kruger is playing a lot not because they want him to but becuase Suggs is injured. They are actually very surprised with his ability to drop into coverge so early but they are pretty dissappionted in his pass rush ability right now.

 

[crisper57]

Mitch,

I mostly agree with you, but I seriously don't think Lance Long will have a spot on this team after today. I just didn't see enough from him. I don't think he is worth trying to protect from being picked off by KC.

 

[joeshmo]

I would love to know what was going thru the minds of Graves and Whiz this past offseason. I mean, you can't tell me they were feeling cozy with Berry, Okeafor, Watson, Branch, Campbell, Iwebema?? And only Dansby as a proven playmaker at the LB position?? What the hell were they thinking?? What was the friggin plan??

Name some pass rush free agents we could have had to improve that? Not even Mitch has done that yet.

Getting more rookies is the only real arguement. But even then people make it out like its so easy to just trade willy nilly style and do it anytime you want (NE being the exception), or have an unlimited amount of draft picks.

There is only one item to improve out pass rush that is even remotely plausible, not based on speculations of possibilites of trades or the list of free agents that are not pass rushers. that item being, Should we have drafted Wells at #31 or Everette Brown?

 

[Mitch]

Bernard isnt a pash rusher, he will get your 3-4 sacks a year in a 4-3 scheme. As a 3-4 DE we just didnt have a need for him. Canty is a heavier version of Cambpell who will only get you 3 sacks a year, again not a pass rusher. Boley is a 220 pound weakling who has 6 sacks in 52 career starts. Those 3 moves were not made to improve their pass rush, becuuse none of them are pass rushers.



I know this might be hard to believe but the Panthers pass rush was only slightly better then our own. 37 sacks in 557 attempts versus our 517 attempts and 31 sacks. Pressure was a problem for them, especially when Peppers would go into his invisible streaks that he is famous for. Brown is just as an unknown as our own 2nd rounder Brown, a shame he got injured. And Irving is just as much of an unknown as our 6th rounder Davis, so they did just as much as we did concerning pass rush. Both of Pitts picks were not made to help pass rush either, both not expected to contribute for a few years, like all of Pitts defensive rookies they pick every year. Carolina and Pitt are bad examples IMO to prove your point.

But your point remains the same. I dont think the Cards knew Berry was going to pack in the offseason. I think they put to much trust in ageing veterans. I think they put to much pressure on thinking blitzin Wilson and Dansby more often will correct things.

But free agency does not lend you the ability to find pass rush help and your examples dont prove otherwise. You either get very lucky which only happesn 1% of the time in free agency, you find a stupid team like the Chiefs, or you grow your own. Just look at all the pass rushers in the league, 95% of them were drafted by the team they are currently on.



Again there were no free agents to sign. Who trades good pass rushers besides the Chiefs? How do you know they didnt try and trade up? Going from 60's to 40's is not as easy of a task as some might think.

Note - I know that it is only preseason but Everette Brown has looked beastly so far. Would have lived to trade up to get him but I can't blast the FO for not getting him considering we dont know if they tried(it takes two to tango), and the task of trading up from 60 to 40 isnt easy at all.

Joe: having stronger, better players up front makes the pass rush better. The Giants improved their pass rush by these additions. Boley has the potential to be very good on the outside as a speed rusher. Vinny DiTrani, the NY beat writer who writes for Lindy's said: "Michael Boley was brought in as a three down LB to start on the weak side...adding speed both as a pass rusher and in coverage."

Let's not forget either that the Giants drafted Clint Sintim at #45...which, again, is a heckuva better move than any of the moves the Cardinals made.

The Patriots had picks #34, #40, #41, and #58 in the 2nd round...and I read an article that said that Belichick was trying to move two of the picks for future picks...as he did with their first rounder. At #40 or at #41, had the Cardinals offered their 2010 #1, it would have been a done deal. Everett Brown was taken at #43. He was the quickest edge rusher in this draft...and it was amazing that he was still on the board in the early 40s. Sintim was taken at #45.

I think you are cutting the Cardinals' FO way too much slack here.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch,

I mostly agree with you, but I seriously don't think Lance Long will have a spot on this team after today. I just didn't see enough from him. I don't think he is worth trying to protect from being picked off by KC.

I think the coaches are still high on him. Just saying.

If the WR unit was healthier, I think you are absolutely right, crisper.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Name some pass rush free agents we could have had to improve that? Not even Mitch has done that yet.

Getting more rookies is the only real arguement. But even then people make it out like its so easy to just trade willy nilly style and do it anytime you want (NE being the exception), or have an unlimited amount of draft picks.

There is only one item to improve out pass rush that is even remotely plausible, not based on speculations of possibilites of trades or the list of free agents that are not pass rushers. that item being, Should we have drafted Wells at #31 or Everette Brown?

Again - I have not the time or the patience to invest in the myriad options that are available to all teams via the draft, trades and FA.
All I know is that this team did very little, IMO, to address the greatest weakness of the team - Pass Defense... Cody Brown? Will Davis? Well, if only "Hope" was an effective strategy...

 

[Ryanwb]

Long will not make the team, I would put real money on it. He's a dime-a-dozen player that could be picked up as an UDFA every draft 25 times over

 

[Mitch]

Joe--your right about the small pool of free agent pass rushers this year...but would we be a better team today and have a better pass rush if we had added Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty, Michael Boley and Clint Sintim? The Giants had less cap room than the Cardinals and they, even with their already prolific pass rush were able to add these players to it.

The Cardinals lost Antonio Smith...they elected to re-sign two aging veterans in Clark Haggans and Bertrand Berry...and draft two rookies with the #63 and #204 picks. Oh, yes and they signed FA Rodney Leisle. That's it, Joe.

Can you really defend that?

 

[joeshmo]

Joe: having stronger, better players up front makes the pass rush better. The Giants improved their pass rush by these additions. Boley has the potential to be very good on the outside as a speed rusher. Vinny DiTrani, the NY beat writer who writes for Lindy's said: "Michael Boley was brought in as a three down LB to start on the weak side...adding speed both as a pass rusher and in coverage."

Boley does not have the potential to be a speed rusher. Hasnt even shown a glimmer of it in 4 starting seasons. Atlanta tried it for 4 years and he sucked at it. The beat writter is full of it, doing what beat writters do in those preseason publications, overstate things. Boley is Cato June, the young version. A 220 weakling who excels in coverage nothing more. Thats not to mention he has to recover from a hip surgery, a suspension, and has no business playing in a 3-4 scheme.

Let's not forget either that the Giants drafted Clint Sintim at #45...which, again, is a heckuva better move than any of the moves the Cardinals made.

The Patriots had picks #34, #40, #41, and #58 in the 2nd round...and I read an article that said that Belichick was trying to move two of the picks for future picks...as he did with their first rounder. At #40 or at #41, had the Cardinals offered their 2010 #1, it would have been a done deal. Everett Brown was taken at #43. He was the quickest edge rusher in this draft...and it was amazing that he was still on the board in the early 40s. Sintim was taken at #45.

Pats wouldnt have traded pick #40 becuase they specifically traded up from their original pick of 47 to get Ron Brace. That pick was not in play. Cinse they also had Pick #41 where htye would have selected Brace only one spot later because Oakland wasnt going to take him leads me to believe #41 was also not in play. Pats were most likely talking about their last 2nd rounder and their at 34.

I think you are cutting the Cardinals' FO way too much slack here.

And I think you believe its easier to make trades and free agent moves then what is actual reality. You talk as if it was as easy to call Pats and just throw away a 1st rounder for a pick in the 40's for a unproven rookie. Or its as easy as just giving a free agent a call and he is on your team. All the while you have no clue what the Pats where trying to trade, how much they were trying to trade it for, if they even wanted to trade those picks, if we did or didnt try to trade up, if they did or didnt make calls to other free agents, it takes two to tango doesnt it. Your basis is on nothing but speculation when you havent even heard 90% of what we tried or didnt try to do. Your basis is on if trades and free agency was as simple as pressing the x button on your controller for Madden.

 

[joeshmo]

I think the coaches are still high on him. Just saying.

If the WR unit was healthier, I think you are absolutely right, crisper.

I think your right. If the WR unit was healthier Long would probably be gone. He might stick for the first 4 games then be the one to go when Patrick gets back, and the other WR's are fully healthy.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Joe, we all know making trades is tough... we get that... But you make it sound like it never happens. Like it's impossible.

FWIW, I have always given Graves a ton of the benefit of the doubt. However, in this case, I am very skeptical. And, while I can see that at least he made an effort (pretty lame as it was) in drafting Brown and Davis, my greater frustration remains with the secondary...
They know what Wilson is and is not. Further, instead of addressing Rolle and his pathetic ability to cover, they simply let that problem continue to fester and worse, they move the guy in as our Punt Returner to boot.

Anyway, at the end of the day Graves and Whiz will be judged by the W's and L's. And should the L's outweigh the W's, there will be a large amount of second-guessing and inquiry about what did and did not happen in the way of drafting, FA's and yes Joe - trades...

Man I hope our offense finds it's footing as they are going to have to average 30 points a game just to keep this team competitive...

 

[MadCardDisease]

I think Pope is gone shortly after the other teams make some cuts. TE is one of the positions that I think we might pick someone off the waiver wire. LB is another position that we might troll the waive wire for.

 

[joeshmo]

Joe--your right about the small pool of free agent pass rushers this year...but would we be a better team today and have a better pass rush if we had added Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty, Michael Boley and Clint Sintim? The Giants had less cap room than the Cardinals and they, even with their already prolific pass rush were able to add these players to it.

Bernard is the only one of the players that would have helped. He is a better version of Robinson. But he is also a wife beater. Canty is a horrible pass rusher, Boley is a horrible pass rusher who has no business in a 3-4 and should be a SS in 90% of any other scheme. Boley and Bernard both of whom have yet to play yet becuase they have been on the PUP this whole time. They are well on their way to being one of many free agent busts that happen every year. The Giants had less cap room means nothing. They had far fewer players to sign then we did. Cards had the elast amount of players under contract to start the season. I said it then and will say it again. Cap space is relative to the teams situation. We had a fake 41 mill to start the offseason because we had to sign so many people and give out so many tenders, Giants did not.

Again you act as if signing those guys was as eay as giving them a call, of which you dont know if we did or did not do. There are 31 other teams with just as much money to spend. Bernard made the Giants his first visit and his first choice. Same thing with Boley. We didnt even have a shot.

The Cardinals lost Antonio Smith...they elected to re-sign two aging veterans in Clark Haggans and Bertrand Berry...and draft two rookies with the #63 and #204 picks. Oh, yes and they signed FA Rodney Leisle. That's it, Joe.

Can you really defend that

First I am not one who thinks losing Smith was a lose. They guy only played when he wanted to and was invisible more times then not. He actually got in a fight with his coach with the Texans because he told him just that. His own position coach told him based on tape of him he thinks he doesnt try hard every down, and Smith got in his face and had to apoligize to his team the next day.

Two, I cant defend or not defend it for multiple reasons. There were no pass rushers in free agency, and you have yet to name a single one. Even if there were in the Cards minds, you dont know if they did or didnt try to sign one. We have no idea, zero. I keep saying, it takes two to tango and there are 31 others teams fighting for the same players with virtually the same amount of money. I can only blast if they didnt even call, but we dont know if they did or did not. When there are 32 teams not everyone is going to take your phone call.

Your thought process is based making the offseason as easy as a Madden video game, and speculation that these free agents were even in play to come here at all, when they may not have even taken our phone calls.

Finally, I have a different philosophy. Free agency is fools gold 95% of the time. It looks great when you sign them but more times then not it falls flat. Look at every team, who are their best players, look at Pitt. Did they build their teams in FA or the draft? Besides a few moves here and there, Free agency doesnt make your team any better. We just have a difference in philosophy, you think free agency can build you a winner, I think Free agency gives you more heart ache then good.

 

[Mitch]

Joe, we all know making trades is tough... we get that... But you make it sound like it never happens. Like it's impossible.

FWIW, I have always given Graves a ton of the benefit of the doubt. However, in this case, I am very skeptical. And, while I can see that at least he made an effort (pretty lame as it was) in drafting Brown and Davis, my greater frustration remains with the secondary...
They know what Wilson is and is not. Further, instead of addressing Rolle and his pathetic ability to cover, they simply let that problem continue to fester and worse, they move the guy in as our Punt Returner to boot.

Anyway, at the end of the day Graves and Whiz will be judged by the W's and L's. And should the L's outweigh the W's, there will be a large amount of second-guessing and inquiry about what did and did not happen in the way of drafting, FA's and yes Joe - trades...

Man I hope our offense finds it's footing as they are going to have to average 30 points a game just to keep this team competitive...

I agree with this, 82.

It wasn't as if the Cardinals didn't have some chess pieces to work with. How about Anquan Boldin? A case could be made that with Steve Breaston coming off a 1,000 yard season that in order to improve the pass rush, you trade Boldin. I still believe, for right or for wrong, that a deal with Baltimore could have been made that would have enabled the Cardinals to acquire T-Sizzle. Boldin, obviously, would have had to have been a part of the deal...maybe Dansby too for another Ravens' player or draft pick added in.

The problem was...and this IS the problem with the way the Cardinals do their business...is that their approach with Boldin was passive-aggressive at best in that the Cardinals said they would "listen" to offers. This is what they did. Could they have presented trade proposals to get a pass rusher for Boldin? You bet they could.

The other thing is...an I will reiterate it...if no trade is made and no free agents added and you go ahead and draft a RB at #31, you make very effort to move up to get the best pass rusher possible, and there were some good ones like Everette Brown and Clint Sintim available in the 40s. Again, the Cardinals took the wait for the draft to come to us approach.

 

[joeshmo]

Joe, we all know making trades is tough... we get that... But you make it sound like it never happens. Like it's impossible.

Didnt make it sound like that at all at least that wasnt my intention. Only pointed out its harder then people want to make it out to be. Mitch was making it out to be as easy as just calling the Pats. I know for a fact the FO makes a ton of calls on draft day, and yes even to trade up. Dont know for what or to where but they were making and even fielding calls. Again two to tango.

FWIW, I have always given Graves a ton of the benefit of the doubt. However, in this case, I am very skeptical. And, while I can see that at least he made an effort (pretty lame as it was) in drafting Brown and Davis, my greater frustration remains with the secondary...
They know what Wilson is and is not. Further, instead of addressing Rolle and his pathetic ability to cover, they simply let that problem continue to fester and worse, they move the guy in as our Punt Returner to boot.

Thats on the coaches and the scheme they are forcing those two into not the FO, concerning Rolle. And I agree.

Look, I get the furstrations, I really do. I just know the game of free agency from the people that actually work in it. I dont get futrated over free agency and the inner working of the offseason becuase I know there is more to it then people realize. I have had different conversations with different people in the business, and you all veterans of ASFN have probably seen a drastic change in how I view or argue about free agency or the front office spending or not spending money the last 2-3 years, compared to when I first got here 5 or so years ago.

In the end because of that I would only bash if I knew they didnt even try, of which we dont know.

 

[Buckybird]

There's a problem with the Cardinals, and your rationale is partly what's at the center of the problem. The past two first halfs the Cardinals have been outscored 54-10. That's disgraceful. Think back to the Philadelphia, Minnesota and New England games last year...and we have a carbon copy scenario...the Cardinals viewed these games as meaningless. And thus, they didn't bother to show up.

This scenario does not speak well to both the players' mindsets or the coaches' ability to motivate and properly prepare the players.

If the Cardinals are truly going to take the next step and establish themselves as a perennial contender, this meaningless game mindset has to change. The players have to have enough respect for the game, respect for the team, respect for the coaches, respect for the fans who cheer for them and respect for themselves to set a standard of excellence that does not allow for less than 100% commitment and effort.

I think of Aeneas Williams...and I can't think of one time throughout his entire career where he dogged it...or played like it was just another meaningless game....even though he probably played on more awful out of the playoff hunt in October teams than anyone.

I think of Larry Centers who ran even harder when the chips were down.

I think of Larry Fitzgerald...who, as well any Cardinal today, understands what it means to be great...and who understands that once a player starts turning it off and on, all visions of greatness begin to flicker.

It's this standard of excellence in preparation and mindset that separates winners from losers.

Agree with everything you said Mitch. Yeah, the drinkers on the board can keep saying "It's only preseason, wait until they count". How many times do you see the best teams in the league get smoked and lack the desire to even compete whether the games count or dont? Maybe once a year. There are some serious problems with these players mindset, thinking they can turn it off & turn it on when they want to. Does the HC have to go postal on these guys once a year to shake them out of funk? It;s only going to work so many times. Wiz is ultimately responsible for getting a team prepared, but if the damn team doesn't want to suit up for battle and fight for pride then shame on them.

It's only preseason, right? Let's just see how this team responds in the 1st 4 games when they count. To me this team is mentally out of it & some players see the signs of whats ahead, just ask AW or Fitz. The warnings sign are there!!!