Browns Trade Second Pick To Eagles

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,391
Reaction score
29,776
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Right now Kaepernick may be signed for multiple season, like through 2020 or something, but this is the last year of that deal. No way in hell he gets paid another season. So the Broncos offer of less this year, but likely more then he'd ever get next year is a great deal. He should jump on it.

The Eagles want a QB, and Howie Roseman told reporters they are drafting a QB.

How sure can you be about the bolded above? Both Nick Foles and Sam Bradford had career seasons for Chip Kelly and got significant contract extensions on the basis of those performances. Heck, Mark Sanchez got a $9M contract after a year in Kelly's system.

It's quite possible that Kaepernick in the Kelly offense can cobble together a 4K yard season with 30 TDs rushing and receiving and San Fran is forced to pick up another year on the deal.

I can't find any confirmation that Philly's mos def taking a QB, although there could be writers filing those stories as we speak.
 

WildBB

Yogi n da Bear
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Posts
14,295
Reaction score
1,239
Location
The Sonoran Jungle - West
This trade can help the Cards, knowing that the Bronco's (two spots back) need a QB. And while Bradford seems like a trade target, I wouldn't think that the Eagles would get rid of him before knowing that Wentz can do the job. Now with QB's going one-two, Lynch is sure to go by number 20. And if the Cards don't want a first round QB for themselves, they could get an offer for #29.

Who said the Rams are taking Goff? Are they in negotiations? Initial speculation was they were trading up for Wentz.
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,767
Reaction score
14,684
Location
Chandler, Az
Move up 6 spots to get a high-value prospect at one of the other marquee positions? I think it's more likely that they traded up to make sure they were getting a guy they knew they wanted more than anyone else than "the other guy" at quarterback. :shrug:

Unless someone let loose that they know exactly who St. Louis is picking.

With multiple teams interested and in need of a franchise QB, that #2 spot was expensive to move up into. To me it doesn't make sense to move all the way up to #2 and pay that price if you are not going for a franchise QB.

The people in Philly would revolt if they trading everything away to move up and ended up taking an OT.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,391
Reaction score
29,776
Location
Gilbert, AZ
With multiple teams interested and in need of a franchise QB, that #2 spot was expensive to move up into. To me it doesn't make sense to move all the way up to #2 and pay that price if you are not going for a franchise QB.

The people in Philly would revolt if they trading everything away to move up and ended up taking an OT.


Interesting. Roseman should be fired for making that trade without being certain of whom he'll have available.

I actually don't think Philly gave up too much or that the trade was "expensive". I think that if they moved up to get Ramsay they'd be in pretty good shape—if Ramsay fills his projection as the next Patrick Peterson. I agree that trading up to get an OT after busting on one three years ago isn't great, but it was like two weeks ago when everyone was happy with Tunsil as the #1 overall pick.

I think this draft is not good. I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out four years from now that the three of the top 5 players in this draft are chosen outside the top 10.
 

don7031

Hall of Famer
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Posts
1,035
Reaction score
297
The Eagles traded their 2016 2nd round pick as part of the Foles / Bradford swap. So they have: 1st, 3rd and fifth on down.

Subsequent year picks make it hard to use the draft value chart. If the Eagles make a playoff run, they can actually come out ahead on chart value on this deal. If they miss the playoffs, the Browns made the better deal on paper.

When it comes to playing games, having players trumps waving a piece of paper saying you won.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,391
Reaction score
29,776
Location
Gilbert, AZ
The Eagles traded their 2016 2nd round pick as part of the Foles / Bradford swap. So they have: 1st, 3rd and fifth on down.

Subsequent year picks make it hard to use the draft value chart. If the Eagles make a playoff run, they can actually come out ahead on chart value on this deal. If they miss the playoffs, the Browns made the better deal on paper.

When it comes to playing games, having players trumps waving a piece of paper saying you won.

Traditionally, you evaluate the subsequent-year picks as the last selection in the round transferred. This provides a worst-case scenario and a discount for having to wait to take that value.
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
28,283
Reaction score
40,297
Location
Colorado
I would like this deal for the Eagles a lot more if they had a better roster to support this young QB. Instead, they will pray their most valuable offensive pieces will still be around next year. If Peters and Kelce are gone, it won't turn out well.

Crazy that I can like the Rams move as much as I do, and dislike this one. It is tough to ever fault a team for trying to get a QB, but it seems like the Rams have better support pieces in place than the Eagles do which isn't saying much.
 

CardsFan88

ASFN Addict
Joined
May 28, 2002
Posts
7,512
Reaction score
4,470
How sure can you be about the bolded above? Both Nick Foles and Sam Bradford had career seasons for Chip Kelly and got significant contract extensions on the basis of those performances. Heck, Mark Sanchez got a $9M contract after a year in Kelly's system.

It's quite possible that Kaepernick in the Kelly offense can cobble together a 4K yard season with 30 TDs rushing and receiving and San Fran is forced to pick up another year on the deal.

I can't find any confirmation that Philly's mos def taking a QB, although there could be writers filing those stories as we speak.

Kapernick's flaw is his ability to process information fast. That's why he's been so bad on his later progressions. He gets lost like bad QB's do mentally.

This flaw was hidden with Harbuagh's system which simplified the offense, and put him in space. If he found an opening, he could run, if a guy was wide open, it was an easy throw.

The problems really began when they took the training wheels off and asked him to mentally do more.

That's why at times he was making throws like Ryan Lindley. It's not that he's inaccurate per se. It's that timing wise he was doing things he mentally cannot handle at the NFL level. So the net effect is, he is inaccurate, because mentally he cannot handle it.

Now as I've said before, if Kapernick has a chance to get back to his previous form, his best shot is with a strong defense and a system that limits his exposure to his flaws. That's exactly what Kubiak's system of boots and rollouts would do.

Chip Kelly's offense by contrast is very mentally tough. It's about having three plays called and reading the defense to know which play is actually going to be run, and then recognizing that the other players know what's up and having the timing down to go through progressions and complete passes on time.

That system seems to be built off the part that is Kaepernick's biggest flaw. What Kelly especially needs most, Kaepernick is worst at.

I also don't think the running plays will help him stay healthy. Kaepernick had three offseason surgeries, so the hits might be starting to get to him. How much he's lost, if any, we don't know, but I'd rather take a Kubiak 40 yard wide open rollout until he gets out of bounds, to a series of 5-15 yard runs out of Kelly's offense where he risks getting hit in the middle of the field.

If I can make a rudimentary comparison. If on a scale of 1-10, Harbuagh's offense was a 4, and last year he sucked at say a 7, he's really going to struggle with Kelly's which is like a 10.

He can hit wide open guys. He can run like the wind. But put all this in motion and it's too much. Think of it like old videogames, where each level got faster and faster. At some point everyone hits a limit and they just can't handle it. A good NFL QB can go to much higher levels then he can.

So I don't expect him to improve, if anything I expect him to regress. Of course he can have a good run here, hit a guy wide open there, but consistently, I don't see it, not in this offense. But even if he just sucked as bad as last year, he would not be worthy of them keeping him at that salary as a backup QB. Additionally as long as they keep him on the roster practicing and/or playing they risk having to fully pay the guarantees for 2017 and 2018 built into the contract. One wrong play this preseason and they could be on the hook for the next 2-3 years capwise AFTER this year.

So he's basically guaranteed this year unless he gets injured, and with the Broncos he'd be getting less this year but an extra year at a salary more realistic to keep him on, in a system that he should be much more likely to produce in.

Sam Bradford has flaws, but one of them isn't a lack of an ability to go through his progressions and make decisions fast and pretty accurately. He's 10x Kaepernick on that note imo.
 
Last edited:

TJ

Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Posts
34,978
Reaction score
21,080
Location
South Bay
Kapernick's flaw is his ability to process information fast. That's why he's been so bad on his later progressions. He gets lost like bad QB's do mentally.

This flaw was hidden with Harbuagh's system which simplified the offense, and put him in space. If he found an opening, he could run, if a guy was wide open, it was an easy throw.

The problems really began when they took the training wheels off and asked him to mentally do more.

That's why at times he was making throws like Ryan Lindley. It's not that he's inaccurate per se. It's that timing wise he was doing things he mentally cannot handle at the NFL level. So the net effect is, he is inaccurate, because mentally he cannot handle it.

Now as I've said before, if Kapernick has a chance to get back to his previous form, his best shot is with a strong defense and a system that limits his exposure to his flaws. That's exactly what Kubiak's system of boots and rollouts would do.

Chip Kelly's offense by contrast is very mentally tough. It's about having three plays called and reading the defense to know which play is actually going to be run, and then recognizing that the other players know what's up and having the timing down to go through progressions and complete passes on time.

That system seems to be built off the part that is Kaepernick's biggest flaw. What Kelly especially needs most, Kaepernick is worst at.

I also don't think the running plays will help him stay healthy. Kaepernick had three offseason surgeries, so the hits might be starting to get to him. How much he's lost, if any, we don't know, but I'd rather take a Kubiak 40 yard wide open rollout until he gets out of bounds, to a series of 5-15 yard runs out of Kelly's offense where he risks getting hit in the middle of the field.

If I can make a rudimentary comparison. If on a scale of 1-10, Harbuagh's offense was a 4, and last year he sucked at say a 7, he's really going to struggle with Kelly's which is like a 10.

He can hit wide open guys. He can run like the wind. But put all this in motion and it's too much. Think of it like old videogames, where each level got faster and faster. At some point everyone hits a limit and they just can't handle it. A good NFL QB can go to much higher levels then he can.

So I don't expect him to improve, if anything I expect him to regress. Of course he can have a good run here, hit a guy wide open there, but consistently, I don't see it, not in this offense. But even if he just sucked as bad as last year, he would not be worthy of them keeping him at that salary as a backup QB. Additionally as long as they keep him on the roster practicing and/or playing they risk having to fully pay the guarantees for 2017 and 2018 built into the contract. One wrong play this preseason and they could be on the hook for the next 2-3 years capwise AFTER this year.

So he's basically guaranteed this year unless he gets injured, and with the Broncos he'd be getting less this year but an extra year at a salary more realistic to keep him on, in a system that he should be much more likely to produce in.

Sam Bradford has flaws, but one of them isn't a lack of an ability to go through his progressions and make decisions fast and pretty accurately. He's 10x Kaepernick on that note imo.

Kelly's offense is easier to learn than Harbagh's, and it's not even debatable. You learn 6 plays and some variations of those plays, with many of the calls/checks coming from the sidelines. Plus, when you have a QB like Kaep, you have to account for his ability to run when a play breaks down. That's something Chip hasn't had since coming to the NFL, which makes the prospect of having Kaep and Chip together pretty scary. The only people who think Bradford is 10x the QB of Kaep are Bradford's immediate family members.

Now, if only SF could surround Kaep with talent.....that's a different story.
 

TJ

Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Posts
34,978
Reaction score
21,080
Location
South Bay
Move up 6 spots to get a high-value prospect at one of the other marquee positions? I think it's more likely that they traded up to make sure they were getting a guy they knew they wanted more than anyone else than "the other guy" at quarterback. :shrug:

Unless someone let loose that they know exactly who St. Louis is picking.

Not sure why else the Eagles would give up several picks to move up six spots if it wasn't going to go QB. I get that a guy like Ramsay is intriguing, but not at that price.

As for Los Angeles, while it's pretty early and nothing is certain until it's announced, Goff seems to be the name coming up more often than Wentz, which is why I think the Eagles trade was for Wentz.
 

TJ

Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Posts
34,978
Reaction score
21,080
Location
South Bay
As an aside---there are going to be some QBs drafted in the first-and-second rounds who frankly shouldn't be picked until rounds 3-5 because of these trades. Guys like Lynch, Hackenberg, Cook, and others should be plenty happy.

For the Cards, it means more quality players in other positions falling down and/or motivation for another team to trade up to #29 and the Cards to collect more picks.

All good things as I don't want any of the QBs who would potentially be available at #29.
 
Last edited:

CardsFan88

ASFN Addict
Joined
May 28, 2002
Posts
7,512
Reaction score
4,470
Kelly's offense is easier to learn than Harbagh's, and it's not even debatable. You learn 6 plays and some variations of those plays, with many of the calls/checks coming from the sidelines. Plus, when you have a QB like Kaep, you have to account for his ability to run when a play breaks down. That's something Chip hasn't had since coming to the NFL, which makes the prospect of having Kaep and Chip together pretty scary. The only people who think Bradford is 10x the QB of Kaep are Bradford's immediate family members.

Now, if only SF could surround Kaep with talent.....that's a different story.

I think what you are mistaking is thinking that a offense with many plays but less adaptability is harder then less plays but more adaptability.

I'm just saying the two requires different skills mentally.

One can be easier or harder then the other based on the QB. They aren't just clear cut easier or harder. A guy that can do one, can't necessarily do the other one just as well. Some QB's might have both, but not all have them both.

To me, Kaepernick doesn't have that skill, and he's shown it throughout his career.

Some QB's could easily remember 100 less adaptable plays and run them well, but put that same QB into a hurry up situation where 6 plays are ultra adaptable, they'll wilt.

He has to run it in real time, on time, against an NFL defense that is also moving around and shifting, doing it consistently, and leaving as many seconds on the play clock as possible.

The part where I said Bradford is 10x better is at his ability to digest information on the fly in real time and make quick decisions. That's one aspect, it doesn't mean I just said Bradford is 10x the QB overall. You're putting words in my mouth. At that skill I think Bradford is 10x better or thereabouts.

I also think it's quite telling they let Kaepernick fly to Denver and meet with the Broncos for a possible trade on the eve of offseason workouts. If he was such a great fit for Kelly's offense, there's no way they'd let him do that.

On the surface I understand what you are saying about his physical skills, it seems like a superior fit. If he has the mental skill Kelly's offense requires.

Kaep's #1 problem imo has been his inability to be in tune timing wise past a first or second receiver consistently in offenses with more plays but with less variability. The way he played best is when they ran an offense that gave him less to digest, and gave him more time to digest it by putting him in space then normal as opposed to Chip's where they are asking him to digest more then normal, and faster.

If he isn't traded it's definitely something I will be paying attention to and see how it plays out. Perhaps there's some way to make it work. But I just don't see it. I think the crucial skill necessary he doesn't have. We'll see.
 
Last edited:

TJ

Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Posts
34,978
Reaction score
21,080
Location
South Bay
I think what you are mistaking is thinking that a offense with many plays but less adaptability is harder then less plays but more adaptability.

I'm just saying the two requires different skills mentally.

Considering that Kaep ran a similar offense at UNR, I don't think there's an issue with fit and his ability to learn the nuances. I think you're overthinking this Kaepernick situation evidenced by your lengthy responses. The real issue is Kaep's desire to stay in or leave San Francisco, not his fit.
 

Southpaw

Provocateur aka Wallyburger
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2003
Posts
39,818
Reaction score
3,410
Location
The urban swamp
Two guarantees during draft time:

1) The Browns will trade down

2) The Browns will botch all of its first-round picks

Also, Cleveland shortchanged itself. Its coup is unimpressive.

Didn't they hire a MLB guy to lead the draft? :eek:

Maybe analytics told them this was the way to go.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,391
Reaction score
29,776
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Kapernick's flaw is his ability to process information fast. That's why he's been so bad on his later progressions. He gets lost like bad QB's do mentally.

Yeah. I've heard you go through this routine a couple of times, and I'm not buying it. I don't buy that an offense that is called in from the sideline on posterboard is more challenging than Peyton Manning's or Tom Brady's. Chip has literally turned over his signal caller every year he's been in the NFL; you don't do that if your system requires time to master.

Based on what I've read on Kelly's offense (Smart Football's Chris Brown is an excellent resource on this), the run game is built around creating overwhelming numbers on one side of the ball, and the passing game is built around pre-determined route combinations. If the route combination doesn't work out, then you run the ball or release to an outlet player. You're the only one I've heard say (without support from outside sources) that Kelly's playing three-dimensional chess while everyone else is playing jacks.

I'll point to the three guys who got above-market deals based on outperforming expectations in Kelly's system.
 

Buckybird

Hoist the Lombardi Trophy
Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Posts
25,271
Reaction score
6,203
Location
Dallas, TX
I luv watching EDP meltdown weekly & never get tired of his ignorance. :D

I still say it was a good trade but we'll see
 
Top