Bryan Colangelo on radio soon

[JCSunsfan]

Excellent post Eric, just a couple of comments in JJ's defense.

He is still very young. That is to the Suns disadvantage, because they will be required to make a long term contract commitment to him before they really know how he will perform. Its going to be a gamble either way they go.

There has been a lot of talk about inconsistencies, but lets talk about what has been consistent.

1. JJ plays very good defense, consistently. While his offense, and his shot have been streaky. But this whole team has played inconsistently. Marbs, Marion, and Amare especially.

Amare is still on his honeymoon here. By next year we all will be ripping him for performing like he has in some games this year. The young man's "head down and head to the hoop" game will not cut it long term. If the offense is eventually going to go through him, he is going to have to learn to pass the ball 30-50% of the time.

There are times when Marbs is tuned out as well. That concerns me more than when JJ is tuned out. After all, the ball is in Stephs hands twice as much of the time.

Shawn, well, he's been out of it as much as JJ.

2. Penny plays poor defense, consistently. His offense has been streaky and his defense has been poor. He's improved of late, but its still inconsistent. I'm also quite tired of Penny's "i'm a team guy, so I am not going to say anything" schtick. By saying that you're ripping your teammates while trying to make yourself look supportive. Its not honest.

3. JJ is healthy, consistently. JJ has the size, strength to play a multitude of positions. There are so many plusses about him interms of skills and ability--even more so than Shawn. As important as anything is that JJ is healthy. He doesn't seem to be nearly as fragile as Penny or Shawn Marion. He doesn't ever seem to get injured.

JJ might not be the long term answer here, but neither is Penny.

Penny is not tradeable, JJ is.

If JJ is not the answer, we need to keep him in the starting lineup until we can trade for a player that we think might work. Benching JJ devalues him for trade purposes. I would only bench him if we think there is a young player on our roster who would be a potential starter (maybe Barbosa).

Penny has had his chance to prove he is a complete player (defense?) and he hasn't demonstrated it. If Penny was playing even just slightly better than average D, he would likely be starting now. Thats no one's fault but Penny's.

 

[cheng]

Originally posted by elindholm
I'm keeping my posts to a minimum these days, since I seem to be intrinsically offensive to so many people here, but I'll go ahead and throw my thoughts out on this topic.

1. Hardaway is a poor defender. It isn't so much his weakside defense or any other subset of what a basketball player is responsible for on that half of the floor. It's that he tunes out when his man doesn't have the ball. Sometimes he'll attempt to double-team, but he's slow, so he neither arrives in time nor can recover when the ball moves again. The result is that Hardaway is often guarding thin air and nothing else. When he is on the floor, the other team always gets better shots. Always. Even if it's not "his man" who is getting the wide-open looks, the fact that the Suns are defending four against five means that someone is open. Any decent passing team takes advantage of this easily. Joe Johnson is not a stellar defender, but at least he does not have the organic weaknesses of indifference and immobility.

2. Hardaway is a better shooter than Joe Johnson and sees the floor better than anyone on the team, with the debatable exception of Marbury. My big complaint with him on offense is that he throws the ball away with lazy, telegraphed passes that your average junior-high-schooler could pick off. However, in the Indiana game, which is the only one I've been able to watch carefully in a while, I remember only one instance of this. Since Johnson creates his own share of turnovers by trying to do too much, the turnover issue is probably a wash. This makes Hardaway the preferable choice on offense.

3. Some Hardaway detractors are pointing to +/- statistics as indicative of Johnson's superiority. The arguments undermining the validity of this metric are compelling. Basically all they mean is that the Suns' bench tends to get outplayed by the opponent's bench more than the starters get outplayed by the opponent's starters.

4. Some Hardaway supporters are pointing to last year's W-L records as indicative of Hardaway's superiority. The arguments undermining the validity of this metric are compelling. When Hardaway was starting, the Suns' roster was basically healthy. When Johnson was starting, it was usually because one or more key players were injured. At the beginning of the season, when Johnson was starting and the team was healthy, the Suns had not yet discovered Stoudemire. It was Stoudemire's emergence and team health that made the Suns a better team when Hardaway started.

5. A couple of weeks ago, Hardaway supporters were advocating returning him to the starting lineup because he was playing poorly off the bench. I thought this argument was a load of crap, and that it was Hardaway's responsibility to play well regardless of whether he wore the honor badge of Starter, which seems to be so crucial to his fans. Over the last few games, however, Hardaway has indeed been playing fairly well off the bench, so this particular objection of mine is no longer relevant.

6a. Johnson's window of opportunity to establish himself as the long-term answer at shooting guard on this team is just about closed. I'd give him about one more road/home cycle and then call it quits.

6b. Unless his consistency improves significantly, I think it is unlikely that Johnson will receive a contract extension from the Suns. They are just too financially hamstrung to take another chance on a highly questionable player. The Suns have picked up his option for next year, but it's looking like that will be it. That means that Hardaway -- who isn't going anywhere -- will, in all likelihood, be with the team longer than Johnson will be.

7. Given all that, I say leave things the way they are for one more road/home cycle, and then, barring an inexplicable personality change in Johnson, make the change. Anoint Hardaway the long-term starter at shooting guard (until his next injury, that is, probably due in late January), explain very carefully that he will be expected to pay attention on defense, and be done with it. Next preseason, take all the reports of Johnson's newfound magnificence, lump them together with those from Hardaway about how he's "finally healthy" after having played in pain for the last 283 consecutive months, and flush them down the toilet with the rest of the excrement.

What is the point of this whole post? You complain how bad Penny is, then in the end you still want him to start? Guess regardless of how bad he is, he is still better than anything we have at SG now.

You can claim Penny's poor defense all you want. And there is no question he is not a great defender. But it wasn't a huge problem like you claim it to be when he was starting last season because the team was winning.

If you think last year's success had nothing to do with Penny playing major minutes and it was Stoudemire's emergence, then shouldn't you blame Stoudemire this year for not making this team winning more games? You can't, Stoudemire's are having better stats than last season so far.

I am not a Penny supporter. He is at most an average SG in this league where JJ is probably one of the worst(starting SG). I think starting Penny gives this team a better chance to win.

 

[Joe Mama]

I don't think that either Joe Johnson or Penny Hardaway are great. I really don't feel either one of them is terrible. Frankly neither one of them this really the kind of starting shooting guard this team needs. Johnson is the stronger defender while Hardaway is better offensively. Right now I think they need more of the offensive help with the starters.

Scotsman, I do think Hardaway's shooting percentages slightly misleading. He has not taken that many shots this season (100 for 16 games). In the games Hardaway took 10 + shots he shot 50%, but that was only two games. In the games he took 7 + shots he shot 51%. Over the last 3 games he shot 17-32 from the field and 6-10 from beyond the three-point line.

Joe Johnson on the other hand is just inconsistent. For every game he's hot there are 2 games he's not. And for the most part the Phoenix Suns lose the games in which Johnson shoots poorly. In their 7 victory so far this season JJ made an average of 47% of his shots. In their 9 losses he shot 32%. Obviously all of the starters shot the ball better in their victories, but the discrepancy wasn't so large with any of the others.

I just do not understand why the coaches were so eager to promote Joe Johnson to starter. It didn't make any sense as far as team chemistry is concerned. It didn't make any sense talent wise, and it certainly doesn't make sense financially. If the team and Hardaway had struggled with him starting I would have been all for a change.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

I just do not understand why the coaches were so eager to promote Joe Johnson to starter

Late last season, JJ had six games in a row where he scored 20 or more points. During the summer at the Rocky Mountain Review, JJ was the team's leading scorer. During training camp he lead the team in scoring and played well.

Once the season started, JJ was inconsistent from game to game and quarter to quarter. He will go through periods when he looks like T Mac and then long stretches when he looks just awful.
Penny has been more consistent on offense after a very rough start of the season but has not played as well on defense.

I am not convinced that staring Penny would help much. The real problem is that the Suns are loaded with players who are more effective attacking the basket than at shooting jump shots. When opponents stick a shot blocker in the paint (to hell with the defensive 3 second rule), the Suns are just not effective on offense. What is worse, their missed jumpers frequently turn into fast breaks by their opponents.

It would be easy to solve JJ's shooting problems - instruct him not to shoot from the outside and only shoot mid range shots if open.

Penny's shooting from the field is only 42% (although he is 9 for 15 for 3 pointers). Penny only shoots 3's when he is open.

JJ's shooting problem is entirely due to taking 3 point shots. He is hitting only 31.1% for three. Take away his 3 point shots and JJ is hitting 58% from the field!

By the way, Jacobsen is hitting 51% from the field including 50% of his 3's. Casey may actually be too conservative with his shooting. He is averaging 15.3 minutes per game compared to Penny's 20.9 and JJ's 38.8 minutes. But Casey is shooting only .23 shots per minute compared to .3 shots per minute by Penny and .32 by JJ.

Marbury takes .4 shots per minute played which is comparable to that of Zarko, but Stephon is shooting only 41.4% to Cabakapa's 50%!

 

[dyle_ph1]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Late last season, JJ had six games in a row where he scored 20 or more points...

If my memory serves me right, JJ did this while being the sixth man and Penny was also playing well during that stretch run as a starter.

...During the summer at the Rocky Mountain Review, JJ was the team's leading scorer. During training camp he lead the team in scoring and played well.

Once the season started, JJ was inconsistent from game to game and quarter to quarter. He will go through periods when he looks like T Mac and then long stretches when he looks just awful.
Penny has been more consistent on offense after a very rough start of the season but has not played as well on defense.

So, even after going through all that (summer league, training camp, etc...) Doesn't it seem funny that when JJ was handed the starting position back, he goes back to his old inconsistent ways. Yes, he has improved from last year and I'm not denying that fact but, IMO, not enough to be a sg playing with starter minutes for a supposedly playoff-bound team.

 

[George O'Brien]

How to end his inconsistency: If JJ stopped shooting all those threes he would be hitting 58% from the field.

It is up to FJ to get JJ, Shawn and Stephon to stop shooting 3's. JJ at 31% is the best of the bunch!

NO MORE THREES!

 

[George O'Brien]

Overall, I do not feel the Suns have enough offensive discipline to only take good shots. Unfortunately, it hurts on both offense and defense. For this team, 3's are NOT GOOD SHOTS.

 

[PhiLLmattiC]

Even without all of the missed 3 pointers, JJ is still a bad mid range shooter. Its either in or WAY off. His shot looks really nice and it looks like its on its way it but it ends up clanking off the side of the backboard. Its like he's throwing curve balls. I think he should go back to being a 6th man.

 

[matt_whitlock]

One thing I was thinking about today is the people who say that if JJ is demoted to the bench again that we might as well just give up on him for good. I don't think this is entirely correct. In all honesty, I think this team already might as well give up on JJ as a starter for good, but I can see flashes of goodness when he does some nice things on the court. Sure, they are the exact same nice things I saw from him 3 years ago, but that's a different topic altogether. The point is, there's no reason Joe can't a) still be an effective bench player and b) someday develop into what this team really needs at shooting guard.

First off, if JJ has any right to be in the world of professional sports, if he is put on the bench as a six man he'll both work harder to someday become that solidified starter, and also recognize that maybe it's best for the team if Penny starts and he gives this team a big spark off the bench. From the second Joe Johnson came over here from Boston, he was given the starting job on a silver platter. Even when he seemed completely reluctant to take it, Frank Johnson and Jerry Colangelo have almost forced the position on him. Even though the team sucked with JJ at shooting guard in the 2001-2002 season, they still gave it to him again to start off last season. When he was terrible and the team was equally bad, Penny took back what should've been his all along. Then they gave it to him again this season. If I'm Joe Johnson, I'm thinking that no matter what I do, at the end of the day when I want that starting position it's mine. If you think that's a positive situation for this Phoenix Suns team, you're dead wrong.

Joe Johnson tore it up in summer league play. Penny Hardaway tore it up in summer league play. Bo Outlaw tore it up in summer league play.

Summer league play is meaningless.

I was watching the Lakers game in the preseason with a couple of my friends, and we were all astonished to see how Joe Johnson was playing. Even these guys, who aren't Penny Hardaway fans, couldn't believe the kind of shots JJ was taking. He shot time after time because you could see he was out there with one mission in mind - to take Penny's spot. And Frank Johnson gave it to him because of preseason games like that one, where Penny played 15 minutes, Stephon Marbury played 20, Shawn Marion played 20, and Joe Johnson played 40 minutes and threw up 20 shots. It didn't make sense to me then, and it doesn't make sense to me now. However, at the end of the preseason, FJ failed to see that JJ's 20 point "outbursts" on 35% shooting was simply because he was playing against guys like Darko Milicic, a couple guys from the NBDL Fayetteville Logators, and my Sheryl Swoops' oldest daughter. The spot was given to JJ, and to be honest with you, there's no reason for it.

In an episode of the Simsons, Lisa was running experiments where she fed an electrical current into a cupcake, and Bart saw it on the table and tried to grab it. When he got shocked, he tried to grab it again, and again, and again, and he kept getting shocked. Bart never seemed to learn that when he grabbed the cupcake, no matter how appealing it looked, the result was only going to be a jolting pain shooting through his body.

It's time for Frank Johnson to stop grabbing at the cupcake.

 

[elindholm]

First off, if JJ has any right to be in the world of professional sports, if he is put on the bench as a six man he'll both work harder

Why can't the same be said for Hardaway?

He shot time after time because you could see he was out there with one mission in mind - to take Penny's spot.

This is beyond delusional. He shot because the coaching staff was encouraging him to be aggressive.

In an episode of the Simsons ... It's time for Frank Johnson to stop grabbing at the cupcake.

Good analogy. I feel the same way about reading your posts. Welcome to my Ignore list.

 

[3rdside]

I just do not understand why the coaches were so eager to promote Joe Johnson to starter. It didn't make any sense as far as team chemistry is concerned. It didn't make any sense talent wise, and it certainly doesn't make sense financially. If the team and Hardaway had struggled with him starting I would have been all for a change.

I agree wholeheartedly and said so at the start of the season. I thought this was a huge mistake and believe it is largely the reason we find ourselves in the state we are in.

Penny is better for the team no matter what his deficiencies, and besides, why would there have been a problem with JJ being sixth man?

Instead, with JJ starting, we have a disgruntled hardaway, a guy (JJ) whose confidence may be shot for good, a team that is now playing totally different to how they were last year (lack of continuity) and a team is going to struggle to make the playoffs.

If nothing else FJ is an idiot for doing this and this alone.

 

[dyle_ph1]

Originally posted by the3rdside
I agree wholeheartedly and said so at the start of the season. I thought this was a huge mistake and believe it is largely the reason we find ourselves in the state we are in.

Penny is better for the team no matter what his deficiencies, and besides, why would there have been a problem with JJ being sixth man?

Instead, with JJ starting, we have a disgruntled hardaway, a guy (JJ) whose confidence may be shot for good, a team that is now playing totally different to how they were last year (lack of continuity) and a team is going to struggle to make the playoffs.

If nothing else FJ is an idiot for doing this and this alone.

In fairness to FJ, I don't think it was solely his fault. The Colangelos seem to be very hands on when it comes to team decisions and I won't be surprised if they are the ones who really pushed for this.

 

[3rdside]

In fairness to FJ, I don't think it was solely his fault. The Colangelos seem to be very hands on when it comes to team decisions and I won't be surprised if they are the ones who really pushed for this.

True.

Your quote highlights why the Phoenix Suns organisation may be fundamentally flawed. For the coach not to have absolute control over the team is a serious problem IMO.

 

[scotsman13]

well we saw tonight how much of a differance that penny made. this game is tied for the second lowest production of the year from the suns. guess what penny didnt make any differance. start jj again. bench penny forever.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by scotsman13
well we saw tonight how much of a differance that penny made. this game is tied for the second lowest production of the year from the suns. guess what penny didnt make any differance. start jj again. bench penny forever.

you are a fool - what happened to earning your spot back on the court? JJ sure as hell looked like he earned it back tonight you jackass!

Both guys suck - it doesn't matter who starts.

 

[Skkorpion]

The Penny Hardaway nonsense. Again. Sigh.

Elindholm speaks for me on this.

Go ahead. Start Penny. Give him starters minutes. Within 10 games, he'll be gone for the season with another injury, or the same one again, really.

Maybe a change in coaching is indeed needed, but the next coach will still be saddled with Googs and Penny, so although I like the makeup of the rest of the team, how can you win 50 games in the West with so much money tied up in two leeches?

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
how can you win 50 games in the West with so much money tied up in two leeches?

Good question Skkorp,

I think the Suns can be good with this roster. Maybe not 50 games, but they are not even competitive right now.

 

[George O'Brien]

I listened to the fourth quarter against the Wolveshere Penny played the entire time. Penny did not produce any points and the team did not make any stops. At this point, I'm not sure either guy is playing well enough to deserve any minutes.

I am beginning to think that maybe the Suns should give Casey more minutes and run some screen plays to get him open looks. I can't see how he could have played worse than the Suns other shooting guards.

Another thought, during the death march that the 4th quarter consistuted, Williams got took only one shot. Since I did not watch the game, I cannot be sure he if he was open or not; but it sounded like they were ignoring him.

 

[3rdside]

Go ahead. Start Penny. Give him starters minutes. Within 10 games, he'll be gone for the season with another injury, or the same one again, really.

10 games nothing; he was there enough for me last year - his broken finger last was, for mine, an unlucky injury if anything. What you've written is unecessarily provocative more than true IMO but if he does get injured i'll take it back.

Maybe a change in coaching is indeed needed, but the next coach will still be saddled with Googs and Penny, so although I like the makeup of the rest of the team, how can you win 50 games in the West with so much money tied up in two leeches?

While we didn't win fifty games, we still made the playoffs with those two last season which is what we are probably not going to do this season.

I don't think the coach is to blame 100% for our problems, instead I think some of it started when we traded Tsakalidis and Outlaw (i.e. management is also to blame). Once the suns decided to start JJ; (influenced no doubt by jerry colangelo as dyle_ph1 pointed out) it was clear that the continuity preached by management was a crock. This lack of continuity (amongst other things) has killed us.

 

[George O'Brien]

The Suns traded Bo when they thought they would have a healthy Zarko. The Bo trade led to getting White, who give the Suns a legitimate power player.

It it was White who was hurt, then I might second guess them because White has a history of injuries. But the Zarko injury was not Brian's fault.

As for signing Googs, I was against it when he was signed. Even at his best, he was basically a slow #3 rather than a real power forward. His numbers were decent, but he was never strong enough nor athletic enough to be more than a nice player. Now, he acts like a guy who plays not to get hurt rather than to win.

As for Penny, I was more concerned about how much they gave up for him and his contract than whether he could play. Prior to coming to the Suns, Penny had gone through several injury ridden years. It was clear that he was no longer welcome in Orlando and there was not that much competition for him.

In the NBA, overpaying a quality player is almost as bad as signing a poor player. It makes it hard to get what is needed. From the beginning, Penny was overpaid and never came close to justifying his huge contract.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien


As for signing Googs, I was against it when he was signed. Even at his best, he was basically a slow #3 rather than a real power forward. His numbers were decent, but he was never strong enough nor athletic enough to be more than a nice player. Now, he acts like a guy who plays not to get hurt rather than to win.

See, this is what I don't get. I don't necessarily disbelieve you, but it is so easy to say right now that you didn't like the signing way back then. When we signed him, Googs was a legitimate star in the league--not a superstar by any means, and not as exciting as Dice was, but definitely above average. In fact, were it not for Randy freaking Livingston, I can confidently surmise that Googs would have been great for us. He was playing extremely well until Knees slammed into his legs.

Penny I can understand, since he was damaged goods even before he put on a Phx uniform. But Googs? The guy is basically worthless now, I know, but I just find it hard to swallow that EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this board has unequivocally said that they opposed the Googs signing from Day 1. That, to me, is nothing more than hindsight and beyond ridiculous.

 

[Errntknght]

Now, Chap, there were legitimate reasons for not liking the acquisition of Googs. Many of us were wanting the Suns to put together a real running team since we had Kidd to spearhead it. Getting Googs and Penny pretty much killed that hope, with the kind of bucks they got. Getting Longley sucked the last bit of life of it, of course. Putting Skiles in charge was dancing on the grave! To me it was just nuts to have Kidd and not even try to make best use of his one outstanding offensive talent. How ironic that six years too late Frankie wants to 'run, run, run' and can't get the team up to a fast trot.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Errntknght
Now, Chap, there were legitimate reasons for not liking the acquisition of Googs. Many of us were wanting the Suns to put together a real running team since we had Kidd to spearhead it. Getting Googs and Penny pretty much killed that hope, with the kind of bucks they got. Getting Longley sucked the last bit of life of it, of course. Putting Skiles in charge was dancing on the grave! To me it was just nuts to have Kidd and not even try to make best use of his one outstanding offensive talent. How ironic that six years too late Frankie wants to 'run, run, run' and can't get the team up to a fast trot.

Aah, but you forget, before Googs' injury, he was known as more of a running big man, more finesse than power--a good fit for the kind of offense Jason Kidd runs.

You can defend yourself all you want, but I'll still find it impossible to believe everybody on this board thought originally that the Googs signing was a mistake. Hindsight says it wasn't, but at the time, I was glad we got Googs when Dice bolted.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Aah, but you forget, before Googs' injury, he was known as more of a running big man, more finesse than power--a good fit for the kind of offense Jason Kidd runs.

You can defend yourself all you want, but I'll still find it impossible to believe everybody on this board thought originally that the Googs signing was a mistake. Hindsight says it wasn't, but at the time, I was glad we got Googs when Dice bolted.

I regretfully admit I was happy when they signed Tom Gugliotta. I thought it was a good move because they desperately needed a good power forward, and it kept him from the Lakers. I still don't think signing Tom Gugliotta was a huge mistake. His problems have mostly stemmed from an unfortunate accident that could have happened to anyone.

Joe Mama

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Aah, but you forget, before Googs' injury, he was known as more of a running big man, more finesse than power--a good fit for the kind of offense Jason Kidd runs.

You can defend yourself all you want, but I'll still find it impossible to believe everybody on this board thought originally that the Googs signing was a mistake. Hindsight says it wasn't, but at the time, I was glad we got Googs when Dice bolted.

I was happy with the acquisition. A player coming off an all star season, a scoring PF who ran. I was happy, but I also realized I would have rather had Dice. I guess either would have been a travesty.