Bucks @ Suns Saturday Finals game thread 7-17-2021 Game - Game 5

[82CardsGrad]

Could he have kicked it out to CP3? I can't tell but seems like he should have been open

I need to go back and watch the play. Aside from being able to kick it to Paul, I recall feeling like he drove too far into/close to the lane, and it seemed like all of the Suns players lost their spacing at the same time.

 

[Finito]

This.

The Bucks are the better team.

sometimes you just gotta give credit to the other team.

 

[Russ Smith]

The shots they were making all game were insane. I keep seeing people here bash the Suns defense but the defense was good. The Bucks just kept hitting shots left and right. It wasn't the Suns defense that was the issue. The Bucks couldn't miss and no one other than Booker seemed interested in scoring for the Suns.

They definitely were on fire but NBA players make shots and I think the Suns allowed them to get to "their spot" too often largely because CP3 was just torched all night. It seemed like the Suns were constantly in rotation after Paul got beat either straight up or off a screen. I have to assume he's worried about his hands because he doesn't usually concede and switch the screens that easily. He had to know what they were doing and he just kept switching putting him on to Middleton, or allowing Holiday to use the screen to get into the lane and create havoc. Being a UCLA fan I've seen Jrue since his soph year in HS that's the best game he's ever played in his life, his jumper was on. he's always been a great passer and defender but last night was teh Holiday we thought we were going to see at UCLA and never really saw.

The Suns are still in it but they have to make Milwaukee uncomfortable, don't let them dictate as much. Ayton has to catch the ball. And I think Monty has to pay more attention to game situations. Cam Johnson has been terrific all series but last night he was -19, the bench was terrible but the Suns only played 8 guys. I think Monty felt he had to ride the starters but he needed more from his bench and not sure what he could have done differently there. Both teams played 8 guys last night, Portis and Connaughton were just better than the Suns bench last night

 

[Russ Smith]

Devin Booker simply wasn't expecting Holiday to be there when he turned around. It looked like a mostly clean takeaway to me. The referees are not going to call that a foul in the NBA.

Yeah that's not a foul in the NBA and even Booker didn't think so he immediately reacted diving to try and get the ball back. When he thinks he's fouled he has no issue publicizing it, he knew it was a steal. The big mistake there was CP3 fouling Giannis on the lob, if he lets that go they get the ball back down 3. For a veteran to make that mistake was surprising

 

[Dr. Jones]

I don’t know where Booker lands in players rankings but he’s better than Lillard and Irving at this point. Don’t want to hear him compared to Tatum and Mitchell again. He’s clearly better than those guys.

Man..... Perspective matters here. These two guys are top 10 players. Book is still 12 to 20.

Devin Booker simply wasn't expecting Holiday to be there when he turned around. It looked like a mostly clean takeaway to me. The referees are not going to call that a foul in the NBA.

He got way too far in to the paint to not go straight up with it. It was a blunder. No two ways about it.

Just like big men, you can't drive below the free throw line and then just dance. There are too many good defenders waiting to pounce. Especially in the finals. We needed more movement in our last set than just the hero ball I have been watching.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Yeah that's not a foul in the NBA and even Booker didn't think so he immediately reacted diving to try and get the ball back. When he thinks he's fouled he has no issue publicizing it, he knew it was a steal. The big mistake there was CP3 fouling Giannis on the lob, if he lets that go they get the ball back down 3. For a veteran to make that mistake was surprising

This

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah that's not a foul in the NBA and even Booker didn't think so he immediately reacted diving to try and get the ball back. When he thinks he's fouled he has no issue publicizing it, he knew it was a steal. The big mistake there was CP3 fouling Giannis on the lob, if he lets that go they get the ball back down 3. For a veteran to make that mistake was surprising

Yeah it was, watch it again. He clearly grabbed the wrist/forearms (both arms) before sliding down to the ball. Booker isn't the only player in the league that wouldn't get that call in that situation but it was a foul and most stars would have been on the free throw line from it. We had our chances to win and we got our own breaks so I'm not going to blame the referees, they miss calls sometimes and that's life. But that is absolutely a foul.

 

[UncleChris]

Yeah it was, watch it again. He clearly grabbed the wrist/forearms (both arms) before sliding down to the ball. Booker isn't the only player in the league that wouldn't get that call in that situation but it was a foul and most stars would have been on the free throw line from it. We had our chances to win and we got our own breaks so I'm not going to blame the referees, they miss calls sometimes and that's life. But that is absolutely a foul.

I did watch it again and you are absolutely right.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yeah it was, watch it again. He clearly grabbed the wrist/forearms (both arms) before sliding down to the ball. Booker isn't the only player in the league that wouldn't get that call in that situation but it was a foul and most stars would have been on the free throw line from it. We had our chances to win and we got our own breaks so I'm not going to blame the referees, they miss calls sometimes and that's life. But that is absolutely a foul.

It just isn't called a foul. not that long before that Holiday drove into a crowd, Paul did the exact same thing ripped the ball loose but Holiday got a good bounce and got the ball back. I'm watching it on youtube right now that's almost never called a foul. Would LeBron or an absolute superstar get that call maybe but I do not think that's a foul in an NBA game the vast majority of the time. Just a great play IMO.

And I don't fault Booker at all he was the only Sun who was able to consistently score, he just didn't see holiday

 

[Bufalay]

Man..... Perspective matters here. These two guys are top 10 players. Book is still 12 to 20.

He got way too far in to the paint to not go straight up with it. It was a blunder. No two ways about it.

Just like big men, you can't drive below the free throw line and then just dance. There are too many good defenders waiting to pounce. Especially in the finals. We needed more movement in our last set than just the hero ball I have been watching.

Bookers scoring and playmaking is close to theirs. His defense is much better.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It just isn't called a foul. not that long before that Holiday drove into a crowd, Paul did the exact same thing ripped the ball loose but Holiday got a good bounce and got the ball back. I'm watching it on youtube right now that's almost never called a foul. Would LeBron or an absolute superstar get that call maybe but I do not think that's a foul in an NBA game the vast majority of the time. Just a great play IMO.

And I don't fault Booker at all he was the only Sun who was able to consistently score, he just didn't see holiday

I see the refs ignore it often when it's just on the hands but no, I don't think it's usually ignored when it's clearly wrist and forearm (both arms, with zero ball contact until after the initial grab). And keep in mind, he didn't just slap the wrists/forearms, he grasped them.

A decade ago players such as Chauncey Billups, Derek Fisher and Andre Miller would slap at the wrists and hands of the ball-handler and often get away with it but even then, the refs usually called it if the defender actually grabbed the arms rather than swiped at them.

 

[Russ Smith]

I see the refs ignore it often when it's just on the hands but no, I don't think it's usually ignored when it's clearly wrist and forearm (both arms, with zero ball contact until after the initial grab). And keep in mind, he didn't just slap the wrists/forearms, he grasped them.

A decade ago players such as Chauncey Billups, Derek Fisher and Andre Miller would slap at the wrists and hands of the ball-handler and often get away with it but even then, the refs usually called it if the defender actually grabbed the arms rather than swiped at them.

I'm not saying in the literal definition of the rule it's not a foul, I'm saying the way the game is reffed it's almost never called. There were all sorts of missed calls in the game I'd be much more upset about the foul call on Ayton where Giannis stepped out because the contact there was initiated by Giannis not Ayton. I don't think that's a foul and I see it go uncalled often and it gave Milwaukee the ball back it should have been Suns ball there.

In my mind the worst call of the entire game was the backcourt foul on Tucker that prevented a dunk by Booker and a foul on Giannis that would have been a flagrant. Tucker made so little contact they never call that a foul. That level of contact happens constantly to call it and deny a break is horrible and as it turned out it woudl have been 2 points and the ball

 

[Mainstreet]

He got way too far in to the paint to not go straight up with it. It was a blunder. No two ways about it.

Just like big men, you can't drive below the free throw line and then just dance. There are too many good defenders waiting to pounce. Especially in the finals. We needed more movement in our last set than just the hero ball I have been watching.

I think Booker wanted to take the jumper even with Giannis there but Tucker slid over at the last moment which took that opportunity away.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The Bucks shot 70+% in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. They went 32-45 from the field, which included 10-17 from 3, over those 24 minutes. They also grabbed 3 offensive boards during those periods. We had hands in their faces and they were making their shots on the move. It was crazy to see a team shoot so well. Short of smacking them with tire irons, there was nothing the Suns could do to keep up.

We shot well most of the game but choked in the 2nd when we shot 10-28 total, including 2-6 from 3. That's what cost us the game. It wasn't defensive lapses so much as ridiculous shooting by the Bucks.

Its painful to rewatch but the majority of buckets they made were not easy or wide open, with the exception of a few corner 3's.

That’s why I blame monty. In those scenarios your only hope is to break concentration. Disrupt rhythm. You can only do so by taking a timeout. Cool their jets. He failed. As he does all so often with that particular aspect of his coaching. We’ve been calling it out all year.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm not saying in the literal definition of the rule it's not a foul, I'm saying the way the game is reffed it's almost never called. There were all sorts of missed calls in the game I'd be much more upset about the foul call on Ayton where Giannis stepped out because the contact there was initiated by Giannis not Ayton. I don't think that's a foul and I see it go uncalled often and it gave Milwaukee the ball back it should have been Suns ball there.

In my mind the worst call of the entire game was the backcourt foul on Tucker that prevented a dunk by Booker and a foul on Giannis that would have been a flagrant. Tucker made so little contact they never call that a foul. That level of contact happens constantly to call it and deny a break is horrible and as it turned out it woudl have been 2 points and the ball

I don't disagree that there were other calls that were missed and some of them went our way and like I said, I'm not blaming the refs for the loss. But the ref had a perfect view and he should have made that call. I disagree with the idea that it was a routine missed call though - again, he grabbed onto both arms. That's not just a foul by the definition, it's the whole reason referees are out there.

Assuming the official has a clear view like he did on this play, IMO that call is made almost every single time it happens during the course of the game and at least half the time as the clock ticks down. A two handed grab is not the same thing as a slap at the ball (an infraction they do ignore at closing time unless you're one of the more protected stars).

 

[Lorenzo]

It looked like his left hand got the ball clean and the right hand hit the wrist, but it’s hard to tell even on the replay. The refs are watching in real time and in real time it looked like a clean tie up that turned into a steal because booker had nowhere to go. That would have been a very aggressive call for the ref to make in that situation. I understand the view of it being a foul, but if the shoe were on the other foot no suns fan would want that foul to be called in that situation.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Man..... Perspective matters here. These two guys are top 10 players. Book is still 12 to 20.

He got way too far in to the paint to not go straight up with it. It was a blunder. No two ways about it.

Just like big men, you can't drive below the free throw line and then just dance. There are too many good defenders waiting to pounce. Especially in the finals. We needed more movement in our last set than just the hero ball I have been watching.

yup. He had a golden opportunity to take the jumper from the FT line when Tucker slightly stutter stepped. He just got too far deep and hesitated for a split second allowing Holiday to crash.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Bookers scoring and playmaking is close to theirs. His defense is much better.

his playmaking for others isn’t close, IMO. He’s been an absolute assassin as a scorer but he’s not at their level finding open guys when teams lock in on him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It looked like his left hand got the ball clean and the right hand hit the wrist, but it’s hard to tell even on the replay. The refs are watching in real time and in real time it looked like a clean tie up that turned into a steal because booker had nowhere to go. That would have been a very aggressive call for the ref to make in that situation. I understand the view of it being a foul, but if the shoe were on the other foot no suns fan would want that foul to be called in that situation.

It was the reverse for me. In the replay I've watched he clearly gets him with his left hand, it appears that he did the same with the other hand but I'm not positive. And that was the perspective the ref would have seen.

I don't think it's marginal or questionable at all. But I don't think it cost us the game either. I'm just arguing against the idea that it wasn't a foul or wasn't a callable foul. It was both but in the end, it's just one of several missed calls that went either direction.

Truth is, the Bucks knew exactly what Booker was going to do and they played him perfectly. Jrue should have been called for that foul but if he'd never made a play on the ball there, we'd likely have turned the ball over anyway. Devin had nowhere to go and nothing he could do there.

 

[FB94]

That’s why I blame monty. In those scenarios your only hope is to break concentration. Disrupt rhythm. You can only do so by taking a timeout. Cool their jets. He failed. As he does all so often with that particular aspect of his coaching. We’ve been calling it out all year.

Agree need to slow the momentum. Also wonder why Nader didn’t get a few minutes during that barrage to see if he could provide some defense

 

[GatorAZ]

Cmon y’all there no way in that’s being called or actually seen in real speed. As soon as Jrue breaks in and Book turns everyone anticipated that happening. I was hoping for a jump ball.

 

[95pro]

That’s why I blame monty. In those scenarios your only hope is to break concentration. Disrupt rhythm. You can only do so by taking a timeout. Cool their jets. He failed. As he does all so often with that particular aspect of his coaching. We’ve been calling it out all year.

maybe a hard foul could have stopped the hot shooting too

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Cmon y’all there no way in that’s being called or actually seen in real speed. As soon as Jrue breaks in and Book turns everyone anticipated that happening. I was hoping for a jump ball.

Ditto

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

maybe a hard foul could have stopped the hot shooting too

True. But that’s never been our guys, could result in free throws, maybe a technical, maybe a flagrant. The timeout is the cheapest currency to spend in that scenario.

 

[95pro]

True. But that’s never been our guys, could result in free throws, maybe a technical, maybe a flagrant. The timeout is the cheapest currency to spend in that scenario.

oh I agree. But when a guy is on fire you have to stop them one way or another.

we finally called a timeout. And they still came out making shots. Least a hard foul puts some physicality into their minds instead of a timeout which is more cerebral.

but you’re right that we’ve never been that team this year to make hard fouls. Maybe a crowder foul here and there but not in this series. Remember in the Lakers and clippers series how many hard fouls we had and some were even reviewed to check for technicals. We haven’t seen them be physical this series.