Buffalo and Arizona both had Allen as QB1

[GimmedaBall]

I noticed that you didn't bother to actually list any of the times. So I suppose I will do that for you. Also I specified "QBs that went ahead of him".

40 yard dash: Allen 4.75, Mayfield 4.84, Darnold 4.85, Rosen 4.92

20 yard shuttle: Rosen and Mayfield 4.28, Darnold and Allen 4.40

3 cone drill: Allen 6.90, Darnold 6.96, Mayfield 7.00, Rosen 7.09

Broad jump: Allen 9'11", Mayfield and Rosen 9'3", Darnold 8'9"

Vertical: Allen 33.5, Rosen 31, Mayfield 29, Darnold 26.5

Looking at these numbers I would say that he was on par with pretty much all of those guys and was better than Darnold overall. I don't see how my statement was in any incorrect.

The NFL is not a 'everyone gets a trophy league.' ALL the players are within the kind of separation you see with the QBs. If they are all 'on par' why even run the combine drills? Answer: The numbers don't lie---check out some of the simulcam comparisons of players placed side-by-side in the 40 yard dash.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Take a look at the separation for even less than 0.2 seconds (the difference between Allen and Rosen). Its the difference between escaping a D player and getting hammered behind the line.

Rosen is not on the same athletic level when it comes to the combine drills cited above. At least in the real NFL. He's slower than a lot of 300lb + DL.

(DJ and Barkley go neck-and-neck with Barkley winning by a nose hair.)

 

[cardncubfan]

No way I believe they had Allen that high. Besides Harry said his people said it was Mayfield & that is more believable. I just can't see Keim & Wilks liking an inaccurate QB when both have said it was a prerequisite.


Edit: Btw, Rosen is an athletic QB. He's not a very mobile QB but he is athletic.

 

[gbrim21]

The NFL is not a 'everyone gets a trophy league.' ALL the players are within the kind of separation you see with the QBs. If they are all 'on par' why even run the combine drills? Answer: The numbers don't lie---check out some of the simulcam comparisons of players placed side-by-side in the 40 yard dash.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Take a look at the separation for even less than 0.2 seconds (the difference between Allen and Rosen). Its the difference between escaping a D player and getting hammered behind the line.

Rosen is not on the same athletic level when it comes to the combine drills cited above. At least in the real NFL. He's slower than a lot of 300lb + DL.

(DJ and Barkley go neck-and-neck with Barkley winning by a nose hair.)

The most overrated metric in football is a QB's combine athletic numbers. Who cares what Tom Brady, Peyton Manning or Drew Brees' 3-cone was? Agility and straight line speed are nice to have in a QB, but certainly not needed for success and absolutely overrated every year.



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[GimmedaBall]

The most overrated metric in football is a QB's combine athletic numbers. Who cares what Tom Brady, Peyton Manning or Drew Brees' 3-cone was? Agility and straight line speed are nice to have in a QB, but certainly not needed for success and absolutely overrated every year.



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

I never said that those qualities were needed for success. I also never said that he wasn't athletic---I said he has limited athletic ability to escape a collapsing pocket and is slow. There are plenty of players who have done well in the NFL with low scores on the combine drills including GOAT Brady with bad combine scores.

The question was why Rosen fell to us at 10 and was the fourth QB taken. I listed several reasons:

Attitude concerns (is he going to motivate his teammates when the going gets rough or is he going to blame them?), shoulder injury, history of concussions, strictly a pocket passer with limited athletic ability to escape a collapsing pocket, slow as molasses running speed.

Rosen's game film and his combine scores on the drills mentioned above all indicate that he has limited athletic ability to escape a collapsing pocket and is slow as molasses running speed. Agility (or mobility) is one of the measures of being athletic in the definition of 'athletic.'

Saying that he is on 'par' with the other QBs is just not true. Whether you like the combine drills or not, they are the measuring stick for ALL the players (unless you are LJ).

I'll be glad to look at any complete game film via Youtube that disproves that statement. I'll also be glad to hear reasons that extend beyond what you may think, believe, or feel that include some actual measures of what you claim.

One last question---why do you think Rosen fell to 10th and 4th QB taken??? (Hint: Maybe being of limited athletic ability is one reason).

 

[Jetstream Green]

I never said that those qualities were needed for success. I also never said that he wasn't athletic---I said he has limited athletic ability to escape a collapsing pocket and is slow. There are plenty of players who have done well in the NFL with low scores on the combine drills including GOAT Brady with bad combine scores.

The question was why Rosen fell to us at 10 and was the fourth QB taken. I listed several reasons:

Attitude concerns (is he going to motivate his teammates when the going gets rough or is he going to blame them?), shoulder injury, history of concussions, strictly a pocket passer with limited athletic ability to escape a collapsing pocket, slow as molasses running speed.

Rosen's game film and his combine scores on the drills mentioned above all indicate that he has limited athletic ability to escape a collapsing pocket and is slow as molasses running speed. Agility (or mobility) is one of the measures of being athletic in the definition of 'athletic.'

Saying that he is on 'par' with the other QBs is just not true. Whether you like the combine drills or not, they are the measuring stick for ALL the players (unless you are LJ).

I'll be glad to look at any complete game film via Youtube that disproves that statement. I'll also be glad to hear reasons that extend beyond what you may think, believe, or feel that include some actual measures of what you claim.

One last question---why do you think Rosen fell to 10th and 4th QB taken??? (Hint: Maybe being of limited athletic ability is one reason).

Rosen is the best passer in this draft class, and I am talking about mechanics and such things as throwing a guy open. Not one single team gives a rat arse about his cone drill or forty, unless he is a sub par passer and scrambling will be what allows him to complete passes. Rosen fell because of his injury possibilities, and to a small degree his character

 

[gimpy]

Slow as molasses? Limited athletic ability to escape a collapsing pocket?

What does he need to improve to, to get beyond your limited athletic ability and slow as molasses statements?

 

[splitsecond]

Rosen is the best passer in this draft class, and I am talking about mechanics and such things as throwing a guy open. Not one single team gives a rat arse about his cone drill or forty, unless he is a sub par passer and scrambling will be what allows him to complete passes. Rosen fell because of his injury possibilities, and to a small degree his character

His ability to throw guys open is unreal. It's Rodgers-like.

 

[GatorAZ]

Rosen has the highest ceiling of any QB in the draft (IMHO, of course)

I would say he has the highest floor.

 

[GimmedaBall]

Slow as molasses? Limited athletic ability to escape a collapsing pocket?

What does he need to improve to, to get beyond your limited athletic ability and slow as molasses statements?

Rosen showed who he is both in his game play and with his combine scores. He's not going to suddenly become RWilson via coaching or training. He's slow of foot.

You accommodate for any limitations of the QB by the way you surround him with supporting players and also by the offensive playbook.

Need a superior OL that has the beef to protect the pocket and keep it clean. Need WR who can get separation at the line with the muscle to make the contested short to intermediate catches. Strong running game. A pass catching TE. A FB for added pass protection. Playbook needs to include quick reads, screen passes, play action based on a superior running game, more of a West Coast Offense compared to BA's Air Coryell version.

A QB like RWilson can get by with a less than stellar line because he can escape from a collapsing pocket. RW can find the open guy by buying time. Rosen will make the same kind of plays with a quick read, quick release---and there's nothing wrong with that.

So, why do you think Rosen fell to #4 QB taken?

 

[Jetstream Green]

A pocket QB needs to have pocket presence and not a stellar forty or cone drill. Marino and Warner are prime examples, Rosen only needs to know where to make a step and not a stride... which he can

 

[GimmedaBall]

A pocket QB needs to have pocket presence and not a stellar forty or cone drill. Marino and Warner are prime examples, Rosen only needs to know where to make a step and not a stride... which he can

True. But realize that because he does not have a stellar forty, D's are not going to have to 'spy' on him during games, they will be able to attack the pocket knowing that is where Rosen will be. The D will not have to be as concerned about Rosen breaking contain and making a big play with either his feet or buying time to make the throw.

Hopefully, Rosen will have the same ability as Warner and Marino to read the D and know where to go with the ball long before the integrity of the pocket is being challenged.

What reason(s) do you have for Rosen dropping to #4 QB at pick 10?

 

[gimpy]

Bad scouting? Bad drafting?

 

[Jetstream Green]

True. But realize that because he does not have a stellar forty, D's are not going to have to 'spy' on him during games, they will be able to attack the pocket knowing that is where Rosen will be. The D will not have to be as concerned about Rosen breaking contain and making a big play with either his feet or buying time to make the throw.

Hopefully, Rosen will have the same ability as Warner and Marino to read the D and know where to go with the ball long before the integrity of the pocket is being challenged.

What reason(s) do you have for Rosen dropping to #4 QB at pick 10?

It's a even slate and changes nothing because traditionally the QB is not a running threat. I already stated in a post (#30 in this thread) why I think he had fallen in a reply to you... I'm not going to repeat myself unless I'm John Gruden and you're Chris Simms, dumb as rocks with no pocket presence, which you are not sir lol

 

[jbjarko]

I truly believe it's his attitude. Look, quite frankly a lot of the teams looking for a QB as we were, don't have the recent success (with the exception of the broncos), that we have had. Our team, as much as we hate to admit it in the now, was build to rule the roost for the past 5 years. As much as we realize there is a depletion of talent at certain positions, there are a few positions where we arguably have the best talent in the NFL.

It takes a certain team to be able to take a guy like Rosen on. He's brash, which I like. Confident to the point of being overconfident. But he is also self aware. We are an older team that has talented, hall of fame worthy, vested veterans that have tasted success. The other teams don't have that such luxury. Fitz, PP, DJ, CJ, will make him feel at home. They will let his confidence run, but reign him in when need be. A lot of teams don't have that mindset, or leadership, and can't have an over confident QB rule the roost...Manziel...potentially Mayfield.

 

[GimmedaBall]

It's a even slate and changes nothing because traditionally the QB is not a running threat. I already stated in a post (#30 in this thread) why I think he had fallen in a reply to you... I'm not going to repeat myself unless I'm John Gruden and you're Chris Simms, dumb as rocks with no pocket presence, which you are not sir lol

You only mentioned his injury history and attitude. I was hoping to see you be more inclusive with your answer. You forgot to mention that he is strictly a pocket passer with limited athletic ability to escape a collapsing pocket and slow as molasses running speed.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

You only mentioned his injury history and attitude. I was hoping to see you be more inclusive with your answer. You forgot to mention that he is strictly a pocket passer with limited athletic ability to escape a collapsing pocket and slow as molasses running speed.

He is more athletic than two of the greatest QBs of all time in both Manning and Brady. Athleticism is vastly overrated for someone that is an elite pocket passer.

 

[Jetstream Green]

You only mentioned his injury history and attitude. I was hoping to see you be more inclusive with your answer. You forgot to mention that he is strictly a pocket passer with limited athletic ability to escape a collapsing pocket and slow as molasses running speed.

Injuries, we all know what they where mainly being the concussions is pretty concise. Really man, there are a huge number of QBs which have his speed and slower who line the football Hall Of Fame so do not make the fact he is not on the in trend of being a mobile QB an issue. Most QBs label as pocket passers do not venture far past that pocket and the main problem with most college QBs now as I have heard more than one analyst state is that they go outside of their pocket due to a poor pocket presence making it difficult for the line to block for them. I would say that Rosen is no slower than Warner or Palmer. He is a QB with a quick release, great mechanics, accuracy with height. The injury concern is that like most great pocket passers, he will stay in the pocket and deliver even when getting hit

The reason I did not state his 'limited' athletic ability, is because I do not see it as a flaw... by the way, I wonder if you ever played tennis, because Rosen did and was pretty damn good at it and one does not excel at that sport unless they have great lateral movement and his side of the court is far larger to cover than a passing pocket unless for some reason you do not agree

 

[Gandhi]

A pocket QB needs to have pocket presence and not a stellar forty or cone drill. Marino and Warner are prime examples, Rosen only needs to know where to make a step and not a stride... which he can

Also, you absolutely must be able to move around in the pocket and throw from the pocket to be a starting quarterback in the NFL. It probably is the most important trait. Even perceived running quarterbacks like Cam Newton and Russell Wilson has that pocket presence. Every starting quarterback in the NFL can work from the pocket. You can’t really undervalue the importance of that trait.

In reference to the above, I really like Rosen’s comment a couple of days before the draft that he had no problem with how some of the other top quarterback prospects was better than him outside the script because the idea is not to be outside the script.

 

[Son of RedRage]

I truly believe it's his attitude. Look, quite frankly a lot of the teams looking for a QB as we were, don't have the recent success (with the exception of the broncos), that we have had. Our team, as much as we hate to admit it in the now, was build to rule the roost for the past 5 years. As much as we realize there is a depletion of talent at certain positions, there are a few positions where we arguably have the best talent in the NFL.

It takes a certain team to be able to take a guy like Rosen on. He's brash, which I like. Confident to the point of being overconfident. But he is also self aware. We are an older team that has talented, hall of fame worthy, vested veterans that have tasted success. The other teams don't have that such luxury. Fitz, PP, DJ, CJ, will make him feel at home. They will let his confidence run, but reign him in when need be. A lot of teams don't have that mindset, or leadership, and can't have an over confident QB rule the roost...Manziel...potentially Mayfield.

I think it's the attitude as well. There's honestly no reason he shouldn't have been taken at #1 asides from him being brash. Mayfield's a good QB, but he'll never pan out with the Browns. Darnold throws too many picks, and was one of the most mediocre passers I've seen go that high. Josh Allen is a tall white boy with a big arm and is the walking embodiment of 'raw talent'. Sure, he can throw a longball 90 yards, but JaMarcus Russell could do the same thing from the ground, and look how he turned out. He can't aim a ball to save his ******* life, and the fact that a Mountain West QB was seen so highly baffles me. He played against some of the weakest competition in college football, of course the dude's gonna put up numbers, doesn't mean he's any good. He's a racist white guy with a big arm but no accuracy. Essentially... welcome to Buffalo, Allen! So yeah, I think we got the better end of the deal.

 

[cardncubfan]

True. But realize that because he does not have a stellar forty, D's are not going to have to 'spy' on him during games, they will be able to attack the pocket knowing that is where Rosen will be. The D will not have to be as concerned about Rosen breaking contain and making a big play with either his feet or buying time to make the throw.

Hopefully, Rosen will have the same ability as Warner and Marino to read the D and know where to go with the ball long before the integrity of the pocket is being challenged.

What reason(s) do you have for Rosen dropping to #4 QB at pick 10?

How many QB's in the league have a stellar forty? 3? 4?

 

[GimmedaBall]

How many QB's in the league have a stellar forty? 3? 4?

I give up. How many?

 

[GimmedaBall]

Injuries, we all know what they where mainly being the concussions is pretty concise. Really man, there are a huge number of QBs which have his speed and slower who line the football Hall Of Fame so do not make the fact he is not on the in trend of being a mobile QB an issue. Most QBs label as pocket passers do not venture far past that pocket and the main problem with most college QBs now as I have heard more than one analyst state is that they go outside of their pocket due to a poor pocket presence making it difficult for the line to block for them. I would say that Rosen is no slower than Warner or Palmer. He is a QB with a quick release, great mechanics, accuracy with height. The injury concern is that like most great pocket passers, he will stay in the pocket and deliver even when getting hit

The reason I did not state his 'limited' athletic ability, is because I do not see it as a flaw... by the way, I wonder if you ever played tennis, because Rosen did and was pretty damn good at it and one does not excel at that sport unless they have great lateral movement and his side of the court is far larger to cover than a passing pocket unless for some reason you do not agree

We are talking past one another and I don't think we will come to any kind of agreement as to why Rosen dropped to 4th QB taken. That he dropped is a fact because that is where he was taken in the draft.

Behind our current OL, Rosen's comparative lack of mobility/agility or whatever you want to call it can be a big issue if the OL cannot defend a clean pocket. Rosen's play breaks down when a pass rush gets him off his spot---which will be the goal of the D when they play him. That's when he makes his bad throws/INTs. Some QBs can make that adjust and improvise---that is not part of Rosen's game.

Check out Harry's recent Thread title "Suicide by Offensive Line."

I did play a lot of tennis---you're right about it being a good way to stay under control and make the lateral moves, etc. The really big difference is that you don't have Suh and Donald bearing down with evil intent to dislocate your head from your shoulders and your knees from your legs.

 

[GimmedaBall]

He is more athletic than two of the greatest QBs of all time in both Manning and Brady. Athleticism is vastly overrated for someone that is an elite pocket passer.

The jury is still out on Rosen and whether he is an elite pocket passer at the NFL level. He has not played a down in the NFL.

UCLA called a lot of primary-option quick-pass plays. Rosen will have to hone his ability to go through his progressions at the next level because the D will sniff out those quick pass plays and there may not be an open guy---a completion may go back the other way for a defensive TD.

I'm looking at Rosen with a critical eye. I'm glad the Cards made the trade they did and the relatively small risk (all picks in this draft) it took to get him. The only way I see to appreciate what he has to offer is to not elevate him to a status he has not yet earned on the field. We all want him to be the best he can be.

 

[GimmedaBall]

Bad scouting? Bad drafting?

Guess that was the reason Matt Leinart fell to the Cards.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The jury is still out on Rosen and whether he is an elite pocket passer at the NFL level. He has not played a down in the NFL.

UCLA called a lot of primary-option quick-pass plays. Rosen will have to hone his ability to go through his progressions at the next level because the D will sniff out those quick pass plays and there may not be an open guy---a completion may go back the other way for a defensive TD.

I'm looking at Rosen with a critical eye. I'm glad the Cards made the trade they did and the relatively small risk (all picks in this draft) it took to get him. The only way I see to appreciate what he has to offer is to not elevate him to a status he has not yet earned on the field. We all want him to be the best he can be.

Never said he was elite, but that is what he was drafted in the hopes of becoming. He was not drafted to be the next Brett Favre, but hopefully the next Brady type QB.