Bulls @ Suns 11-18-15

[Mainstreet]

You really need to open your eyes. Bledsoe and Knight are the highest paid guys on this team and are supposed to be team leaders. Playing out of control and jacking up horrible shots on most nights is not being a good leader, IMO.

Goodwin sucks balls as well. He is terrible, I have no idea what you and others see in him. He is a guard that cannot shoot. Granted I would rather see him than Weems or Price but Booker should be the first guard off the bench to replace either Bledsoe or Knight, it is not even close. Price should only play due to extreme foul trouble or injury.

I guess in your world it is OK for Booker to never get the ball while watching Bledsoe and Knight jack up off balance 3 pointers while never passing the ball. The good thing is that it reduces turnovers, but is horrible for the team shooting percentage. I am just tired of the isolation crap that this coach allows on a nightly basis.

My hope is that we see more nights of Knight getting 15 assists while getting others involved. The same goes for Bledsoe. They both have the skills to get that done.

Both Knight and Bledsoe ran a pick and roll with Len and it turned into an easy bucket, each time. Rarely do I see that play run with this group. Somehow we need to get our bigs more involved other than on the defensive end and offensive rebounds. They do try to get Morris involved but he is just horrible and needs to go. I think both Len and Chandler are more than capable if given the chance.

Unfortunately on most nights Bledsoe and Knight are our designated chuckers and it seems to be the plan from our coach because he allows it.

I doubt that would be allowed in San Antonio or Golden State.

I kept thinking to myself last night in regard to Bledsoe and Knight... you don't have to shoot the ball all the time. I don't mind them taking the shot or drive when it is open but they seem compelled to do so much of the time even when it is not the best shot. They are the best players on the Suns team so I know they are doing what Hornacek wants. However, there are other players on the court. The Suns will not take the next step until they find other consistent options with ball movement.

 

[Catlover]

I kept thinking to myself last night in regard to Bledsoe and Knight... you don't have to shoot the ball all the time. I don't mind them taking the shot or drive when it is open but they seem compelled to do so much of the time even when it is not the best shot. They are the best players on the Suns team so I know they are doing what Hornacek wants. However, there are other players on the court. The Suns will not take the next step until they find other consistent options with ball movement.

Isn't that the knock against most scorers? When they're on, we love the fact they are playing to their strength and dominating the game. When the shots aren't falling, they look like ballhogs. I'd be more critical of them if our other minutes-eaters were routinely hitting their shots.

 

[Mainstreet]

Isn't that the knock against most scorers? When they're on, we love the fact they are playing to their strength and dominating the game. When the shots aren't falling, they look like ballhogs. I'd be more critical of them if our other minutes-eaters were routinely hitting their shots.

I agree this can be the knock on a lot of scorers. When they're on they look good and when they are not, it may not look pretty but it usually evens out somewhere in the game. When I made the specific comment above I was thinking of a tired Bledsoe driving the ball to the basket with a pack of defenders waiting. There was just no chance he was going to score. Sometimes a player can't carry the load by himself. I respect Bledsoe for taking this team on his shoulders but sometimes he (and Knight) need to realize they need to pass the ball. Too bad Markieff was not able to help more. In fairness though, he had been out due to illness. I thought his play hurt the team a lot.

 

[devilalum]

Also, forgot to mention, Jimmy Butler schooled Devin Booker on a couple of shots. This should help Booker to be a better defensive player later on. I bet Booker will remember those fakes.

For everybody whining about Booker getting more minutes...

 

[Mainstreet]

For everybody whining about Booker getting more minutes...

I'm still for Booker getting more minutes as he needs to learn so he will be a better player later in the season. I bet he will study the video of the Butler moves because he wants to learn. It's hard to believe he just turned 19.

 

[Bert]

I didn't watch the game last night, but I watched the Lakers game, so just proof that the Suns dont need me in order to lose.

This team is weird because most nights I watch them and I'm like ugh they suck this is going to be a long rebuilding process, but then they have these stretches where they look really good.

I still dont know who they really are at this point. Do they?

 

[Mainstreet]

I didn't watch the game last night, but I watched the Lakers game, so just proof that the Suns dont need me in order to lose.

This team is weird because most nights I watch them and I'm like ugh they suck this is going to be a long rebuilding process, but then they have these stretches where they look really good.

I still dont know who they really are at this point. Do they?

The Suns lose just fine by themselves.

They excel at beating teams without key players and playing teams on the second night of back-to-backs.

 

[Catlover]

The Suns lose just fine by themselves.

They excel at beating teams without key players and playing teams on the second night of back-to-backs.

More than a little unfair, it must be the day after a loss. Yes, we caught the Clippers shorthanded. How many times have we had to play without key players? Where was this attitude then? And about that Nuggets game, back to backs mean very little. A couple of high altitude teams might have a significant advantage at home when facing an opponent that's on the back end but even with that advantage, league-wide it's not very meaningful.

I left out the statistical analysis but here's the summary quote from databaseBasketball.com about this issue:

In the end, NBA teams really don't play any worse in the second game of back to back sets, but it appears that they do because the majority of those games are on the road. So the next time you hear that announcer mention the "fatigue" factor for a team playing in the second game of a back to back set, you can just shake your head, hit the mute button, and enjoy the rest of the game.

 

[Bert]

More than a little unfair, it must be the day after a loss. Yes, we caught the Clippers shorthanded. How many times have we had to play without key players? Where was this attitude then? And about that Nuggets game, back to backs mean very little. A couple of high altitude teams might have a significant advantage at home when facing an opponent that's on the back end but even with that advantage, league-wide it's not very meaningful.

I left out the statistical analysis but here's the summary quote from databaseBasketball.com about this issue:

I think mainstreets point was that we have yet to have any kind of quality win that doesn't have an asterisk next to it. I dont think that is really that unfair. I dont see it as like major hate being sent either, it's just kindof the state of the franchise.

 

[Catlover]

I think mainstreets point was that we have yet to have any kind of quality win that doesn't have an asterisk next to it. I dont think that is really that unfair. I dont see it as like major hate being sent either, it's just kindof the state of the franchise.

I think that's part of it but there was some obvious frustration in it too IMO, something that is not uncommon on the day after a loss. But you're right, we don't have a great win. OTOH, all wins count. At this point last season we had wins over San Antonio and Golden State but we weren't really any better off than we are now.

I'm more concerned about our bad losses than our wins. We should not have lost to Dallas and Detroit at home, not if we truly are a playoff contender. If we don't get our power forward position sorted out soon we're going to be looking at 6 straight seasons with an early start to summer.

 

[Mainstreet]

More than a little unfair, it must be the day after a loss. Yes, we caught the Clippers shorthanded. How many times have we had to play without key players? Where was this attitude then? And about that Nuggets game, back to backs mean very little. A couple of high altitude teams might have a significant advantage at home when facing an opponent that's on the back end but even with that advantage, league-wide it's not very meaningful.

I left out the statistical analysis but here's the summary quote from databaseBasketball.com about this issue:

You took me way too seriously. I was trying to give a quick summation of the Suns (tongue in cheek) to Bert without going into great detail. Actually, I thought the Suns played fairly well against the Bulls with the exception of the 1st quarter. If Markieff had played better the Suns might have won. I mentioned earlier he had been out. He was probably rusty. Jimmy Butler had a great night for the Bulls who are a good team even without Rose. The Suns are not going to win them all.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think mainstreets point was that we have yet to have any kind of quality win that doesn't have an asterisk next to it. I dont think that is really that unfair. I dont see it as like major hate being sent either, it's just kindof the state of the franchise.

This is what I was sort of saying but in a joking way as evidenced by the LOL at the end of my first sentence.

Maybe I should have been more thorough in my analysis but I thought you would understand what I was saying. I'm glad you do.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think that's part of it but there was some obvious frustration in it too IMO, something that is not uncommon on the day after a loss. But you're right, we don't have a great win. OTOH, all wins count. At this point last season we had wins over San Antonio and Golden State but we weren't really any better off than we are now.

I'm more concerned about our bad losses than our wins. We should not have lost to Dallas and Detroit at home, not if we truly are a playoff contender. If we don't get our power forward position sorted out soon we're going to be looking at 6 straight seasons with an early start to summer.

I wanted the Suns to win but this is not one of those games that had me overly frustrated. The Bulls are a good team. There was no shame in that loss. As you point out, the Suns loss to the Dallas and to a lessor extent Detroit were more frustrating.

 

[BC867]

Jeff Hornacek needs to finally grow the balls to bench Kieff.

I am not pleased with Jeff's weak leadership, but the decision to bench Kieff might very well come from the GM, with hopes of showcasing him for a trade.

It's a trick bag. Play Markieff and he's selfish with his heart just in it, affecting the rest of the roster, especially the young guys.

Bench him and he'll be a cancer. But then, maybe he'll go off the deep end and get suspended.

Do we think that McDonough and Hornacek have the personalities to bait him? I know I wouldn't. Plus, word would get out and the players throughout the league would band together.

Yup, it's a trick bag.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am not pleased with Jeff's weak leadership, but the decision to bench Kieff might very well come from the GM, with hopes of showcasing him for a trade.

It's a trick bag. Play Markieff and he's selfish with his heart just in it, affecting the rest of the roster, especially the young guys.

Bench him and he'll be a cancer. But then, maybe he'll go off the deep end and get suspended.

Do we think that McDonough and Hornacek have the personalities to bait him? I know I wouldn't. Plus, word would get out and the players throughout the league would band together.

Yup, it's a trick bag.

it's really not. you move him and get whatever you can in a tried and true addition by subtraction trade. He's already locked into his contract, he doesn't like the team, and he's not going to play hard here. His value is whatever it is at this point and isn't going to get better, but his attitude and effect on the team CAN get worse. Ship him off and cut your losses while you can.

 

[BC867]

it's really not. you move him and get whatever you can in a tried and true addition by subtraction trade. He's already locked into his contract, he doesn't like the team, and he's not going to play hard here. His value is whatever it is at this point and isn't going to get better, but his attitude and effect on the team CAN get worse. Ship him off and cut your losses while you can.

Right! But my post was more about . . . what do you do with him until a trade?

We played better when he was out. Sliding him back into starting Power Forward is a step backwards.

Three choices --

-- Continuing starting him and face the consequences (which is probable)
-- Move him to backup and watch him damage the young guys
-- Park his butt at the end of the bench

-- With the possibility of him getting so pissed off and making a scene that you can suspend him. But the world will see and that would be bad PR for the Suns.

 

[devilalum]

it's really not. you move him and get whatever you can in a tried and true addition by subtraction trade. He's already locked into his contract, he doesn't like the team, and he's not going to play hard here. His value is whatever it is at this point and isn't going to get better, but his attitude and effect on the team CAN get worse. Ship him off and cut your losses while you can.

Is there another problem child out there that might benefit from a change of location? Our headache for yours? Sometimes a change of location can work wonders.

 

[devilalum]

I am not pleased with Jeff's weak leadership, but the decision to bench Kieff might very well come from the GM, with hopes of showcasing him for a trade.

It's a trick bag. Play Markieff and he's selfish with his heart just in it, affecting the rest of the roster, especially the young guys.

Bench him and he'll be a cancer. But then, maybe he'll go off the deep end and get suspended.

Do we think that McDonough and Hornacek have the personalities to bait him? I know I wouldn't. Plus, word would get out and the players throughout the league would band together.

Yup, it's a trick bag.

I saw him and Chandler talking on the bench. They looked like they get along pretty well. I don't think he's intentionally dogging it. IMO he's just moping around and miserable because of the hole he's dug for himself.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Is there another problem child out there that might benefit from a change of location? Our headache for yours? Sometimes a change of location can work wonders.

These are good questions

 

[Phrazbit]

I wonder if he might play better on this road trip. The fans hate him (justifiably) and he knows it. Whatever moral boost the guys get from playing at home he probably isn't feeling it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Right! But my post was more about . . . what do you do with him until a trade?

We played better when he was out. Sliding him back into starting Power Forward is a step backwards.

Three choices --

-- Continuing starting him and face the consequences (which is probable)
-- Move him to backup and watch him damage the young guys
-- Park his butt at the end of the bench

-- With the possibility of him getting so pissed off and making a scene that you can suspend him. But the world will see and that would be bad PR for the Suns.

There is a fourth option although the Suns do not want to go there right now. When Markieff was out with a knee sprain the thought occurred to me he could remain out injured almost indefinitely (inactive). This might be an option in the future that pleases both parties if Markieff does not play up to his ability. My hope is Markieff plays hard and stays with the Suns or plays hard and gets traded.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Just watched first qt Bulls vs Golden State... Wow
Go Suns