Bush in '06

[Arizona's Finest]

Alright boys and girls (yeah both of you…) It is now officially the off season. In what most fans stop thinking about football at this point, we as Cardinals fans call that point “week 7”….
So as we have read ad-nauseum the Cardianls are not in fact that far away. In fact only two to three starting positions absolutely have to be changed and with some better coaching and added depth, I don think it’s even impossible for us to put on a run similar to what Seattle has done over the last couple years. So I think the main parts that have to be replaced are two offensive line positions and a game breaking RB…and I am thinking big here and so should you Cards fans. This is w/o a doubt a chance at a turning point in franchise history and I think all the important people in charge know this, so a big splash should be expected. As Cardinal fans, it is our main worry that that “big splash” results in an actual goof football decision as well. Well Here is what I have observed over the last few weeks….

I think its going to be harder and harder for Houston to pass on Vince Young. After everything I have seen, Bush would be going into a impossible situation in Houston. The fans want Vince Young bad, and I think the owner is going to overrule and football decsions. But for the Texans they can make up for this by actually getting back some value AND getting their guy at #3. The Titans really have no need for Bush (although the Chow-Bush collaboration worked pretty well there for awhile) But in keeping with selling tickets and winning football games, all three teams could use a boost. I know three way trades are unlikely but the draft order should be something like this

#10 Tenn.- They need a QB to groom. They don’t reach for the guy they want and get a hometown guy to boot. All the while picking up picks for a team that’s no where near a title.

#3 Hou – The Texans get their guy as New Orleans is a lock for Lienert and the number one player in the draft should go number one

#1 AZ- Reggie Bush….no team makes more sense for the kid and for the team than Bush (w/ the possible exception of the Jets)

Lets look at it from the perspectives of the guys in charge

Denny
Motivation: Needs to win next year
Why: Denny loves fast game breaking RB’s (Bennett, Arrington, Smith) for his offense and no one is faster is better than Bush. With him on the team, you could not double Q or Fitz and he is great catching the ball too.

Mike Bidwill:
Motivation: Wants to fill the Stadium
Why: Ummm think Reggie Bush will cause a spike in sales….Only Lienert would get a possible better effect and that is debatable. We all keep talking about White, But Bush satisfies our needs even more so

Cardinals Offense:
Motivation: Needs a running back for a suspect offense line, and a game breaker to take pressure off of Warner and the WR’s.
Why: Nuff said. Instantly transforms us to an elite offense with better oline play and additions through FA.

Cardinals Special Teams
Motivation: Need better coverage and better returns
Why: Yesterdays Super Bowl was a perfect case study on why field position is so important. The Punter and kicker are in place. Hopefully better coaching will help with tackling. Bush is the x-factor. He would instantly become the guy that is most feared in the league now that Dante Hall has regressed.

To me this makes too much sense. Bush is as close to a sure thing as has been in the draft, and the Cardinals should do what it takes. Theoretically if we filled our holds and depth in FA, I would not mind a first day draft that look like this:

(1)- Arizona Reggie Bush

I know we need depth, I know a couple starters in round two and three would help this team immensely. But I say spend that money on the one missing piece and build the rest of the team with vet leadership and through bargin basement backups. I don’t think we are that far away, and I think one player and some better health will be all the difference. For once, I want to be a proactive team like Atlanta, NY, San Diego and other franchises have been to get the players they want. C’mon Cards….so something big…

You are on the clock…..

 

[seesred]

I like what you write. However, I would be in the camp that say's JJ will be better next year. I haven't given up yet and I think Green feels the same way. I still would pick up White to compete with JJ, because Marcel will not be with this team this year IMO.

That leaves us with all our picks. You made a great point that we need depth.It comes with a price. The nprice is holding our number 10 spot, fixing weak areas in Fa. Picking up a young gaurd or two in the draft and shoreing up the defensive line inside.

We are close as you pointed out. The number 8th offense and defense with 15 players coming back off of IR and at least half of them starters.

So I'm on the clock ....THe Cards pick Lendal White with pick number 10.

GBR
40

 

[Drop D]

I would not mind a first day draft that look like this:

(1)- Arizona Reggie Bush

....Hmm, so you're saying that we should trade our entire draft for a stud running back. Seems like that worked out well the last time.

Could you actually see a coach doing that ever again?

 

[joeshmo]

[Cardinals Special Teams
Motivation: Need better coverage and better returns
Why: Yesterdays Super Bowl was a perfect case study on why field position is so important. The Punter and kicker are in place. Hopefully better coaching will help with tackling. Bush is the x-factor. He would instantly become the guy that is most feared in the league now that Dante Hall has regressed.

Why do people keep talking about Bush as a return man. Yes he was a return man for USC but that doesnt make him any good at it. In fact he is very, very, average at it.

His Kickoff return average is below 20 yards, that is just pitiful not only in college but the NFL as well.

As for his punt returns, he does not do that all to well either with under 10 yards a pop. In college that is only average, doesnt even put you in the top 35.

Also do you know what it will take to move from #10 to #1. The price will be huge, the biggest trade in terms of how much given up in the history of the draft, most likely. It isnt like we are moving up from 5 to 1 like oter teams who have made moves for close to the #1 pick in the past.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I would not mind a first day draft that look like this:

(1)- Arizona Reggie Bush

....Hmm, so you're saying that we should trade our entire draft for a stud running back. Seems like that worked out well the last time.

Could you actually see a coach doing that ever again?

Notice "first day" that means i would be willing to switch picks in the first and give up our second and third, if thats what it would take....

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Why do people keep talking about Bush as a return man. Yes he was a return man for USC but that doesnt make him any good at it. In fact he is very, very, average at it.

His Kickoff return average is below 20 yards, that is just pitiful not only in college but the NFL as well.

As for his punt returns, he does not do that all to well either with under 10 yards a pop. In college that is only average, doesnt even put you in the top 35.

Also do you know what it will take to move from #10 to #1. The price will be huge, the biggest trade in terms of how much given up in the history of the draft, most likely. It isnt like we are moving up from 5 to 1 like oter teams who have made moves for close to the #1 pick in the past.

Im actually with you on that...If Bush was on this team, i wuldnt want him wasting touches on the return game as i would want him running 20 times and catching 5 balls.....

But RB is a faster Marshall Faulk....remember what happened last time warner had Faulk....

The cost would be enourmous though and thats why i included Tennesee in my write up....thats way every team gets what they want and if we gave up our first next year to Houston and a second and third for Tennesee to move down (with Tennessee giving some stuff up to Houston as well...) i think it could work...

Its not the methodlogy behind doing it that interests me as much as getting that type of player on our team....

 

[joeshmo]

Notice "first day" that means i would be willing to switch picks in the first and give up our second and third, if thats what it would take....

IF that is what it would take. But it if the past is any indication it will take far more then that.

 

[spanky1]

AZ Finest.......what comic books do you read?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

AZ Finest.......what comic books do you read?

Umm....im not sure if this is a serious question or because you think i am in "fantasy" land....

So im going to be cynical and assume you are trying to bring me down a peg....im not saying what i propose is likely, especially since we cheer for a team that has shown us no indication they are willing to do something this bold. But thats exactly why they should do it...its a calculated risk but one i think is worth taking being that he is a "once a generation type" player on a "laughing stock for generations type" team.

That doesnt mean either of the involved parties would be willing to hand Bush to us. But this off season is beginning to take shape, and I think teams are starting to downgrade Bush becasue he hasnt done anything remarkable in about three months (through no fault of his own of course)Im not sure why Houston would ever think Young is a better fit than Bush, but a lot of things i have heard and read seem that they may go that route. I think Bush is the difference between 5-11 and 10-6. I think he is that good and fulfills that many needs for us.....That doesnt mean its going to happen...

And if you were being serious, well i put the comic book collection in a box in my garage about thirteen years ago. I had a affinity for the x-men, spiderman and spawn at the time though......

 

[Phill11]

I think we'd be expecting way to much out of Bush if we expected him to come here as a rookie and carry not only our offense but our special teams.

 

[Goldfield]

This team has too many needs to trade away alot of picks. Take White at ten and continue to improve the team with the rest of the draft.

 

[Redrage]

I would not mind a first day draft that look like this:

(1)- Arizona Reggie Bush

....Hmm, so you're saying that we should trade our entire draft for a stud running back. Seems like that worked out well the last time.

Could you actually see a coach doing that ever again?

Oh no, look whose posting on the Cards board now.

The apocalypse in upon us!

 

[spanky1]

It's because you are in fantasy land.

Taking Bush at this time wouldn't be bold....it would be plain dumb.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

It's because you are in fantasy land.

Taking Bush at this time wouldn't be bold....it would be plain dumb.

I'll get back to you in three years and see if you wouldnt give up two drafts if the kid turns out like i know he will....

And I think YOU are dumb for saying that giving away three picks in one draft for the modern day Gale Sayers when its a position we need to up grade at.......

or maybe i respectfully disagree....

I can't remember which one

 

[slanidrac16]

TRading up to #1 and giving up draft picks is NOT the way to go. The money it would take to Sign Bush could and should be used to sign a couple offensive linemen and a FS plus who know who we will get in rounds 2 and 3.
It would be entirely different if we had made the playoffs the last 2 years and just 1 player away from becoming an elite team.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

It's because you are in fantasy land.

This coming from a guy who thinks we can get a high second round draft pick for Bryant Johnson.

 

[spanky1]

I'll get back to you in three years and see if you wouldnt give up two drafts if the kid turns out like i know he will....

And I think YOU are dumb for saying that giving away three picks in one draft for the modern day Gale Sayers when its a position we need to up grade at.......

or maybe i respectfully disagree....

I can't remember which one

Our needs are now....not three years down the road.

And comparing him to Sayers at this point ( or ever), is way out of line. This is hyberbole at it's worst.

Look how the Saints went into the tank after getting Williams by trading all their day 1 picks (actually, their entire draft). You will never be able to convince a knowledgable football follower that Hershel Walker made the kind of impact in Minnesota (or wherever he went) after Dallas got rid of him for the plethora of picks they got for him.

AZ Finest.....it may seem I'm being picky with your posts, but your "pie in the sky" draft//FA pick scenarios are way too off the wall to warrant the remotest consideration. Quite simply, they are not reality based.

If you are trying to "get a rise" by being absurd, then carry on. Just don't apply for a job with the Cardinals please.

 

[JeffGollin]

....Hmm, so you're saying that we should trade our entire draft for a stud running back. Seems like that worked out well the last time
Once upon a time, there was this head coach/GM named Mike Ditka. He traded away his entire draft in order to draft Ricky Williams.

That draft helped the Washington Redskins immeasurably and helped the New Orleans Saints remain buried as a franchise.

I'm not saying that when the time is right, you don't make a bold move. But...

1. Putting all your eggs in one RB's basket elevates the risk-factor considerably - i.e. if the remaining egg gets broken, your franchise will be reduced to shambles. RB's get injured. Highly paid RB's sometimes get rich and sloppy. Or they ingest the wrong chemicals. Or they have "issues" at home.

2. It makes sense to plug in the final missing piece of a puzzle if your team is fundamentally sound everywhere else. The Cardinals may be only a few players away from being something special.

Or not (The operational word in the above paragraph is: "may.")

3. I'm not sold that - all other things being equal (i.e. the offensive line) - Bush will be sufficiently better than Arrington or even Shipp to make a sufficient enough difference.

4. If I were to even consider trading up, it would have to be to draft a sure-fire franchise QB (because, like pitchers in baseball, QB's can impact a game more than anyone else). I've previously floated the idea that we ought to consider trading up to draft Vince Young; but not without a considerable amount of trepidation - it would be a ballsy move. But remember, the concept of "risk" suggests that for every winner, there's a loser. And with our track record...

 

[dreamcastrocks]

If we were going to trade up, the best possibility to trade up would be to the #4 spot. It is doubtful any of the teams in the top 3 would trade out of the position, without getting a TON in return for the pick.

I would draft Ferguson at #4 and give a 2nd and a 6th to do it. Ferguson becomes the new LT, Davis is forced to move to LG due to Green's best OLineman philosophy and the left side of our line is secured for years.

We could then draft for needs.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Our needs are now....not three years down the road.

And comparing him to Sayers at this point ( or ever), is way out of line. This is hyberbole at it's worst.

Look how the Saints went into the tank after getting Williams by trading all their day 1 picks (actually, their entire draft). You will never be able to convince a knowledgable football follower that Hershel Walker made the kind of impact in Minnesota (or wherever he went) after Dallas got rid of him for the plethora of picks they got for him.

AZ Finest.....it may seem I'm being picky with your posts, but your "pie in the sky" draft//FA pick scenarios are way too off the wall to warrant the remotest consideration. Quite simply, they are not reality based.

If you are trying to "get a rise" by being absurd, then carry on. Just don't apply for a job with the Cardinals please.

Listen, theoretically any team can trade up with Houston, as they are not needing the number one prospect in the draft due to having Dominick Davis. With the right package, any team can move up into that spot. It happened with NY and Eli and Atlanta and Vick. So you can say pie in the sky or what, but the reality is that before those trades were made, no one else thought San Diego would be willing to give up either of those QB's.

You can disagree that the Cardinals need more than one player to be good, but thats not my opinion. With a sold free agency, some better health and coaching and a player like Bush, i think we could contend for the division, especially if Alexander takes off.

How is comparing Bush to Sayers hyperbole. I did it immediatly after i attended the ND-SC game (go back to my thread on the subject) and soon after much more reputable paid sports writers (something you are not Spanky despite your obvious delusions) have said much the same thing. Its way less ridiculous than syaing Vince Young after a good season and one big game is going to be a big time QB. At least Bush has all the requirements and the "it" factor that many agree with my comparison.

Disagree if you like the Cardinals need more than just Bush. But in an offseason that will define our franchis it is my opinion that this bold storke would be one we would all look back on and say "thats the moment everything changed"...

So i hope you dont apply for a Cardinals job either because you are likely the biggest backer of short term do nothing fixes like Oliver Ross and Duane Starks and your regime would likely continue the morass this team has been stuck in for years upon end. Ever heard the the term "if it aint broke, dont fix it." well guess what? It is broke and it needs to be fixed. Whatever stockpiling of draft picks and "safe" signings we have been doing are not working. we are the definition of inept and im tired of it. So do something about it. Sign Edgerrin James, Trade up for Lienert or Young, or go with what i think is the best route and try like hell to get Bush.

But dont just run in f--king place! Im over that. Take a risk and be bold, because Mr. Vanilla's conservative bowtie ways just aint cutting it.

 

[spanky1]

Listen, theoretically any team can trade up with Houston, as they are not needing the number one prospect in the draft due to having Dominick Davis. With the right package, any team can move up into that spot. It happened with NY and Eli and Atlanta and Vick. So you can say pie in the sky or what, but the reality is that before those trades were made, no one else thought San Diego would be willing to give up either of those QB's.

You can disagree that the Cardinals need more than one player to be good, but thats not my opinion. With a sold free agency, some better health and coaching and a player like Bush, i think we could contend for the division, especially if Alexander takes off.

How is comparing Bush to Sayers hyperbole. I did it immediatly after i attended the ND-SC game (go back to my thread on the subject) and soon after much more reputable paid sports writers (something you are not Spanky despite your obvious delusions) have said much the same thing. Its way less ridiculous than syaing Vince Young after a good season and one big game is going to be a big time QB. At least Bush has all the requirements and the "it" factor that many agree with my comparison.

Disagree if you like the Cardinals need more than just Bush. But in an offseason that will define our franchis it is my opinion that this bold storke would be one we would all look back on and say "thats the moment everything changed"...

So i hope you dont apply for a Cardinals job either because you are likely the biggest backer of short term do nothing fixes like Oliver Ross and Duane Starks and your regime would likely continue the morass this team has been stuck in for years upon end. Ever heard the the term "if it aint broke, dont fix it." well guess what? It is broke and it needs to be fixed. Whatever stockpiling of draft picks and "safe" signings we have been doing are not working. we are the definition of inept and im tired of it. So do something about it. Sign Edgerrin James, Trade up for Lienert or Young, or go with what i think is the best route and try like hell to get Bush.

But dont just run in f--king place! Im over that. Take a risk and be bold, because Mr. Vanilla's conservative bowtie ways just aint cutting it.

I never said that no team will trade up with Houston.....quite the contrary. I believe a team like the NY Jets who need a RB could get a lot of mileage out of something like this. You are saying the Cardinals should go after Bush.....not me. So please don't use your own innuendo and attribute it to something I said or proposed.

Second point. I DO BELIEVE that the Cardinals need more than one player to be a playoff contender, which is why I'm saying giving away the farm to move up to get a crack at Bush is plain ass dumb. San Diego NEVER wanted Vick. They gave up a crack at Vick to draft Tomlinson. That was a wise and an astute football move. We would not contend for the division title with Bush alone. That is total nonsense. You think he could be effective with our O-Line as it is now configured? Another "pie in the sky" comment.

Gale Sayers is one of the top three running backs OF ALL TIME. Bush might become a really good RB eventually....but he'll never be in the class of Sayers. For one thing, given the NFL today, it is virtually impossible to duplicate the feats of either a Sayers or a Walter Peyton.....or for that matter a Barry Sanders. The DB's today are just too big, too fast, and too athletic. And what any comment about Vince Young having to do with this conversation, is above me.

Never said "it wasn't broke". Again, you are attributing statements to me that I never made.

Bill Bidwill is not Mr. Vanilla......that was a comment attributed to Vince Tobin.

How can you say I'm the biggest backer to the FA moves of Oliver Ross and Duane Starks? That' is again attributing comments to me that I never even alluded to. But I will say this.......that Duane Starks turned into a bad FA signing was too bad.......I'll bet that there are less than 1% of posters on this board who thought that it was a bad move signing him when we did. That he was an injury waiting to happen was not on his resume when we signed him.

Personally, I don't believe that the draft and FA signings that have happened under Green have been bad at all. Truthfully, we have moved a quantum leap forward in the last two years under his watch......but I can tell you are "in the instant gratification" camp.

Once again, you rant has zero focus.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I never said that no team will trade up with Houston.....quite the contrary. I believe a team like the NY Jets who need a RB could get a lot of mileage out of something like this. You are saying the Cardinals should go after Bush.....not me. So please don't use your own innuendo and attribute it to something I said or proposed.

Second point. I DO BELIEVE that the Cardinals need more than one player to be a playoff contender, which is why I'm saying giving away the farm to move up to get a crack at Bush is plain ass dumb. San Diego NEVER wanted Vick. They gave up a crack at Vick to draft Tomlinson. That was a wise and an astute football move. We would not contend for the division title with Bush alone. That is total nonsense. You think he could be effective with our O-Line as it is now configured? Another "pie in the sky" comment.

Gale Sayers is one of the top three running backs OF ALL TIME. Bush might become a really good RB eventually....but he'll never be in the class of Sayers. For one thing, given the NFL today, it is virtually impossible to duplicate the feats of either a Sayers or a Walter Peyton.....or for that matter a Barry Sanders. The DB's today are just too big, too fast, and too athletic. And what any comment about Vince Young having to do with this conversation, is above me.

Never said "it wasn't broke". Again, you are attributing statements to me that I never made.

Bill Bidwill is not Mr. Vanilla......that was a comment attributed to Vince Tobin.

How can you say I'm the biggest backer to the FA moves of Oliver Ross and Duane Starks? That' is again attributing comments to me that I never even alluded to. But I will say this.......that Duane Starks turned into a bad FA signing was too bad.......I'll bet that there are less than 1% of posters on this board who thought that it was a bad move signing him when we did. That he was an injury waiting to happen was not on his resume when we signed him.

Personally, I don't believe that the draft and FA signings that have happened under Green have been bad at all. Truthfully, we have moved a quantum leap forward in the last two years under his watch......but I can tell you are "in the instant gratification" camp.

Once again, you rant has zero focus.

whatever bro....you stand for nothing i guess than....

I think Bush would be MUCH better than JJ behind our line...But im hoping the Cardinals rectify that problem through FA anyway as i dont want to spend another year watching a olineman develop.....

we have never been able to run the ball. I think Reggie Bush would change that. No he is not Gale Sayers. But he runs like him, is faster than him, has as good as moves as him and runs with only slightly less power. I cant believe anyone with at least half a brain could sit here and say that Bush wouldnt instantly become a gamebreaker in the NFL. I think Reggie Bush could have run for 1000 yards behind our oline from last year, let alone what i hope will be an improved line with more talent and better coaching. Its my opinion that other than the injuries, are inability to run the ball was the most important factor to why we did't play better last year. So lets see if you can handle this formula. Reggie Bush + Better offensive line + more health on defense = PLAYOFFS. You can disagree but that just makes me think you didnt watch one complete SC game other than the national title game where Reggie was a little less than his sensational self.

Actually im thinking this more east coast bias rhetoric that downgrades SC, and thinks Bush would not be a good player in the SEC (and no im not ATTRIBUTING this too you, im taking your ******* comments and making an educated guess )

I dont care if Vince Tobin was known as Mr. Vanilla, i was saying it about Bidwill arbitrairly because he has shown to be very conservative and not being up with the times.....(although hes getting better, or mike is influencing him more)

Personally, I don't believe that the draft and FA signings that have happened under Green have been bad at all. Truthfully, we have moved a quantum leap forward in the last two years under his watch......but I can tell you are "in the instant gratification" camp.

And this is the comment that personifies my thought process. Green has done a good job of stocking talent in the right places the last two years. BUT he needs to win this year, The Bidwells need to win this year, and we as fans NEED to win this year. So its my thought that instead of getting one pretty good player and likely starter(1st round) one starter hopefully (2nd round) and a 50/50 chance to start (3rd rounder) we just get the one game breaker that instantly gives our team credibility and doesnt allow offensive coordinators to sleep the night before games. To me thats Reggie Bush. So even if he isnt enough to take us over the top, think about this. Lets say we go 7-9 or 8-8 (you have to give RB and better health at least that much credit) and Green gets fired. Well what coach and FA QB is not going to want to come to this team with Boldin, Fitz, and Reggie Bush and a young talented defense on the other side. Answer: I bet you that could get you the best available guys. So you see i am thinking long term here.

Does anyone else agree with what im saying at all? I already know this goof doesn't but while you may think we need more depth, you cant deny the impact a player like Bush would have on our team.....And i bet if we did do it, spanky would be leading the Super Bowl in '06 threads as the hype would be the most ever bestowed on our little mom and pop team......

And im in the camp that it would make all the difference on the field as well.....

 

[Russ Smith]

Look how the Saints went into the tank after getting Williams by trading all their day 1 picks (actually, their entire draft). You will never be able to convince a knowledgable football follower that Hershel Walker made the kind of impact in Minnesota (or wherever he went) after Dallas got rid of him for the plethora of picks they got for him.

.

6-10 before the trade, 3-13 the first year, 10-6 the next. Man I wouldn't mind us going in the tank like that.

The main problem with that 99 team that won 3 games is they played Billy Joe Tolliver and BIlly Joe Hobert at QB, 26 picks between them. Next year they started Blake and won 10 games.

The Ricky trade didn't really hurt NO that's a common misconception. They had a much easier time signing their draft picks(they had just one) which made it much easier for them to concentrate on FA.

Not saying everyone should trade a whole draft for 1 pick but that time it really wasn't all that bad of a move.

 

[spanky1]

AZ Finest.......it's Bidwill.....not Bidwill.

And although I currently live in NC, Scottsdale AZ was my home for 15 years. I am well aware of Southern Cal and have followed them like a fly on sticky paper since 1967. I still watch over 50% of their games ANNUALLY....so your east coast bias statement falls off me like water off a duck.

And did you ever see Sayers play or are you merely reguritating what others have been saying about Bush. Bush faster than Sayers.....bull poop.

I am personally friends with five various team scouts....with stature and credentials that are impeccable. My comments about draft and FA strategy are as a result of lengthy conversations with them all on a twelve month basis. All five were at the Senior Bowl.....and no, I will not divulge their names out of respect for their responsibilities with the teams that employ them.

To a man they agree on Bush becoming a potential star....but none of them compare him to a Gale Sayers.......the most glittering comment they have given him is that he fits more in the class of a Marshall Faulk level RB. Time will tell.

Bottom line.....all five agree with me that trading up to get him given the cost in picks is not prudent.

End of discussion....you are too blinded and in love with Bush to see any other meritous argument.