C-Webb to Mavs?

[arwillan]

i say let webber go to the mavs. he isnt going to help them beat the suns much, and if they get him we are the front-runners for PJ

 

[Joe Mama]

If PJ Brown was off the table I'd be more happy with Chris Webber than any other big that would be remaining. Sure, he isn't a strong defender like Brown or Thomas. He is a big body who can still hit the boards. He can still keep defenses honest with his passing and shooting.

I've not heard the Phoenix Suns mentioned regarding Chris Webber though, and he would probably be too expensive.

I think Chris Webber could be a very good signing for the Dallas Mavericks.

Joe

 

[nowagimp]

IMHO, his offensive breakdowns last season came from him playing out of position at SF.

I would offer another opinion of Boris Diaw. In the NBA, everyone studies your tendencies and Boris has tendencies that have been learned. Its like a guy who can only drive to his right is overplayed to his right by the opposition. Guys who are excellent dribble penetrators but cant shoot outside are defended by the defender backing off. Boris must now adjust to make the opposition pay for playing to his tendencies. Here are some of Boris tendencies:

1) doesnt like to shoot off the dribble, slow shot release. They play off him to limit his drives, sag deep into the lane.

2) finishes only driving to his right, and once he gets low on the dribble, he's unlikely to pass once he hunkers down. Perhaps a trailer play to amare would work here. When he does drive left he likes to pass or shoot the fadeaway off a spin move. He needs to develop an up and under to draw contact here.

3) When he pins a smaller player on the low block he takes too long to get the shot up, lets help D recover. He should be able to go right up over the guy with ahook or draw some contact.

Boris must shoot more because the opposition is playing him to pass, regardless of his lack of ego, he must do it. The suns could also practice him with amare in a two man game and force Boris to shoot if the D trys to shade amare(in practice!). If Boris develops an outside shot with a decent release off the dribble, it will create more space in the lane, and make his drives and finishes more effective. He needs to set his feet quickly off the dribble and release the shot. He should also become more physical on his finishes, seek out contact(as everyone has said). Last year Boris did what he likes to do, and didnt succeed because everyone knows what he likes now. This year he must adapt to what the defense gives and punish them for playing to his (former) tendencies. If he does this, he can be a very good player for the suns. This year, I think Boris is the key player for the suns if he develops and becomes more versatile, less predictable, the suns will be very hard to beat if they can land PJ, especially.

 

[Errntknght]

There are many things they could do with Boris to lend more variety to his game - not to mention the Suns' half court offense. I'd still like to see them setting him and Amare up in a double high post set, running cutters every which way along with some criss-cross plays with the two principals. The down side to that is Amare would be at risk for more fouls via moving picks so he'd have to improve his technique.

Nash and Boris could run a two man game in the style of Stockton and Malone - it takes practice to realize the subtle aspects of that so you don't gain much by casually tossing it into the mix.

Less subtle is the pinch post maneuver - best exemplified by Bibby and Webber several years ago. The good thing about that is that Leandro and Banks or Stawberry could run it in addition to Nash. The complexity of this maneuver comes from the coordination of the baseline screens and cuts by other members of team - not exactly D'Antoni's strong suit as off-ball screens are key. (After him watching KT for two years he ought to at least know what an off-ball screen is.) Amare would play Divac's role, flashing across the lane low after the guard had cleared through or even set a screen for Amare.

 

[fordronken]

I would offer another opinion of Boris Diaw. In the NBA, everyone studies your tendencies and Boris has tendencies that have been learned. Its like a guy who can only drive to his right is overplayed to his right by the opposition. Guys who are excellent dribble penetrators but cant shoot outside are defended by the defender backing off. Boris must now adjust to make the opposition pay for playing to his tendencies. Here are some of Boris tendencies:

The problem with this assesment is that Boris wasn't trying to do things and being stopped. He just wasn't doing things. He was passive. He wanted the team to operate like an oiled machine where everybody passed and nobody worried about shots. He passed to move the offense, but the offense didn't work that way. He needed to be more aggressive and make plays for himself within the offense. That was his problem. He wasn't going to the basket and getting stopped because he was over scouted.

 

[nowagimp]

The problem with this assesment is that Boris wasn't trying to do things and being stopped. He just wasn't doing things. He was passive. He wanted the team to operate like an oiled machine where everybody passed and nobody worried about shots. He passed to move the offense, but the offense didn't work that way. He needed to be more aggressive and make plays for himself within the offense. That was his problem. He wasn't going to the basket and getting stopped because he was over scouted.

1) I have always like errntknght's idea of a double high post, its a good one.
2) When the defense lays off Boris its hard to go to the basket with a packed lane. This also means that good perimeter shootere are needed to open things up for Boris' playmaking. Amare dealt with guys laying of and packing the lane by developing his jumper. Its not just about being aggressive, you have to punish the defense for laying off Boris(or amare). Nobody respected Boris' shot, that must change or he will not be effective no matter how aggressive he is. And amare must understand that Boris must shoot effectively to improve spacing when he is on the floor. When Boris shoots quickly, and effectively, going hard to the basket will be much more effective as the defense is forced out of the lane area, and the interior passing lanes will also open up. As a playmaker, Boris also must have the pull up jumper, get his feet set quickly(he's terrible at this) and release quickly. Just look at steve nash and jason kidd, the difference is that Nash has a full repitoire of pullups, perimeter game, you name it. Kidd has a lously perimeter game and no pull up jumper. If the suns are ever to realize the potential of Boris' passing skills he MUST develop these shots. Jason Kidd is plenty aggressive, but the strategy is still to lay off let him shoot(40% career FG's is damn good defense in anyones book). Did you ever wonder why Nash finishes at the rim so much more than Kidd?

 

[azirish]

The problem with this assesment is that Boris wasn't trying to do things and being stopped. He just wasn't doing things. He was passive. He wanted the team to operate like an oiled machine where everybody passed and nobody worried about shots. He passed to move the offense, but the offense didn't work that way. He needed to be more aggressive and make plays for himself within the offense. That was his problem. He wasn't going to the basket and getting stopped because he was over scouted.

One of the most common concerns expressed last summer was that Diaw needed the ball in his hands at the elbow. This would conflict with how Amare is used. That is exactly what happened and Diaw was not nearly as effective as he was the year before.

In 2005-06, Boris took 852 shots compred to 566 in 2006-07. Mostly he shoots layups (or other shots in close). When he shoots in close, he hits 65.3% of his attemps.

More than anything else, the Suns offense is based on spreading the floor. Sticking Boris on the wing being guarded by wing meant he had a lot further to go to get to the basket and thus plenty of time for weak side help to come over. Granted, Boris has a tendency to pass out rather than accept contact in finishing. But unless you are Barbosa, it is hard to get to the basket from that distance without contact.

In 2005-06, Boris was matched against centers from the high post. His mid range shooting was pretty good at 44.5% But his real sweet spot is the left elbow where he hit 51.6% and 53.8% in 2005-06. Opponents had to come out to guard him.

Using Boris at the high post means the Suns can still run the pick and roll, but it is somewhat different with Boris than Amare. Amare is a great finisher while Boris is more inclined to pass.. Still, Boris was not bad at getting to the basket in 2005-06 (460 attempts) and last season hit 65.3% in close.

While Boris does not finish like Amare, running the ball through the high post with Boris gives the team some other options.

1. Short jumper when the defense hangs back.
2. Attack the basket following a pump fake.
3. Drive and kick when a help defender comes over to guard.
4. Post up the defender if a small guy comes out to guard.
5. Run back door plays and other passes to cutters
6 Run the give and go using penitrators.
7. Pass to shooters who run off screens (Nash becomes another outside shooter in this scheme)

When both Boris and Amare are in the lineup, it would mean moving Amare to the left low post. If the defender comes out to deal with Diaw, it would leave Amare defended by one guy when Boris makes a dump off pass following a drive.

Errntknght and I have been talking about the need to develop a high post offense for a while (different versions though). The decision to move Diaw permanently to the high post suggests that at least something of this kind is being contemplated. If nothing else, it would create a new set of problems for defenses that try to defense the Suns by stopping Nash.

 

[Errntknght]

When both Boris and Amare are in the lineup, it would mean moving Amare to the left low post. If the defender comes out to deal with Diaw, it would leave Amare defended by one guy when Boris makes a dump off pass following a drive.

Posting Amare in the low block does not appear to be something Mike wants to do much - probably because his defender can lean hard on him, stressing his knees. In fact, he wasn't having Amare post low much the last year before the microfracture.

 

[arwillan]

If PJ Brown was off the table I'd be more happy with Chris Webber than any other big that would be remaining. Sure, he isn't a strong defender like Brown or Thomas. He is a big body who can still hit the boards. He can still keep defenses honest with his passing and shooting.

I've not heard the Phoenix Suns mentioned regarding Chris Webber though, and he would probably be too expensive.

I think Chris Webber could be a very good signing for the Dallas Mavericks.

Joe

idk about expensive, iirc he was with detroit for about 900k last year

 

[elindholm]

idk about expensive, iirc he was with detroit for about 900k last year

Assuming this wasn't supposed to be a joke...

Webber was still paid a billion dollars by Philadelphia last season. The Sixers bought him out and he chose to go to Detroit. Since his net salary was going to be the same no matter what, he took only the minimum from the Pistons.

The full MLE for Webber this year would be a huge pay cut, and it's unlikely he will accept less from anyone.

 

[arwillan]

Assuming this wasn't supposed to be a joke...

Webber was still paid a billion dollars by Philadelphia last season. The Sixers bought him out and he chose to go to Detroit. Since his net salary was going to be the same no matter what, he took only the minimum from the Pistons.

The full MLE for Webber this year would be a huge pay cut, and it's unlikely he will accept less from anyone.

you know what, i totally forgot about the buy out. for some reason i thought he was a free agent at the start of the year and the pistons grabbed him. woops

 

[F-Dog]

Webber to Dallas for the MLE is probably the best-case scenario for Suns fans--he doesn't match up with the Suns too well (good luck with that Nowitzki/Webber front line, Dallas) and with their full MLE gone, the Mavs won't be competing for the players the Suns are trying to lowball.

Too good to be true IMO.

 

[azirish]

Posting Amare in the low block does not appear to be something Mike wants to do much - probably because his defender can lean hard on him, stressing his knees. In fact, he wasn't having Amare post low much the last year before the microfracture.

I don't think Amare would be "posted" in the classic sense, but then again he wasn't used that way before Nash either. Amare was never a "back to the basket" guy, but was more inclined to work the baseline in space. In 2003-04 Voskuhl and later McDyess were used by D'Antoni in the high post (McDyess was much more effective) and Amare averaged 20.6 ppg despite coming off his injury. The idea of using Amare exclusively at the high post came with the switch to small ball the following year.

 

[Errntknght]

George,

I don't think Amare would be "posted" in the classic sense, but then again he wasn't used that way before Nash either. Amare was never a "back to the basket" guy, but was more inclined to work the baseline in space. In 2003-04 Voskuhl and later McDyess were used by D'Antoni in the high post (McDyess was much more effective) and Amare averaged 20.6 ppg despite coming off his injury. The idea of using Amare exclusively at the high post came with the switch to small ball the following year.

He certainly was posted low in the classic sense early in his career - he received the ball with his back to the basket though he rarely shot that way. I have no idea what you mean by "work the baseline in space" but the only way he could be said to work the baseline was to spin from his position on the low block, cross under along the baseline for a reverse dunk or layup or flip up.

The switch to small was not a causative factor in where Amare posted up and he was definitely not used exclusively at the high post - running the pick and roll is not a high post maneuver even when it occurs in the same part of the floor. In fact, Amare did not suddenly switch from the low post to the high post - he moved his posting up spot gradually outward as his range on his jump shot increased. I clearly remember that happening - and remarking on it in here numerous times.

I even have to dispute your statement that D'Antoni used Voskuhl and McDyess in the high post. Yes Jake was out high a lot for the purpose of setting picks and he did swing the ball around the perimeter fine but the team did not run any of the classic high post plays. McDyess was even less of high post player - normally he would cycle low then pop out high or to the wing for a jumper - which he was very good at shooting. Of course, he did come out high to set picks, too.

Some examples of guys who played classic high post are: Chris Webber, Brad Miller, Vlade Divac, Bill Walton (one of the best ever when he was with Portland). Luke Walton and Mike Dunleavy are sort of high post players but their teams play doesn't revolve it enough to make it worthy of the name. Other bigs known for their long range shooting but who didn't play high post are Bill Laimbeer, Rik Smits and Robert Parrish or currently, Okur, Ilguakas and Rasheed Wallace. Nowitski, Odom, Duncan, and Garnett have the tools and do play high post some but their teams games are not built around it by any means.

I can see why cheese and others get exasperated with you at times, George - you tend to phrase things like you know what you're talking about it but there is often little basis for what you say. In that paragraph I quoted you didn't have anything correct, except Amare's ppg after his high ankle sprain.

 

[azirish]

There are two uses of the term "high post", location and system. The high post for the Suns in recent years has always been to set picks which is a location use. I should have made that clear when discussing the 2003-04 plays. I was basically constrasting the location for Amare and I apologize about my inprecise use of the term.

As for Amare in the low post, I do not remember him standing in the post leaning on his defender. Perhaps you are right and he spent his time a lot of time wrestling with guys 50 pounds heavier; but my memory of it was that he would pull out a few feet and use his quickness to go around his man. One of the rationales for his developing a jump shot was to force opponents to come out on him so he could make his moves in space.

 

[greensborohill]

Exactly what I was thinking. C-Webb's just a nice player these days, but one could only hope they'd play him at center against us. Diaw could actually match up with him. Webber's still a really good high-post player. He's kind of a heavier, slower Diaw with a better jump shot, and not nearly the brute he used to be. Still a better fundamental rebounder, though.

That would be a high-scoring matchup if the Suns went with a lineup that included Amare and Diaw vs. Dirk and Webb. Dirk would be in foul trouble in about 2.3 seconds.

?? When has Dirk ever been in foul trouble versus the Suns?

And if Webber were to sign, he would prob. get 20-25 MPG at the backup four and spot 5 minutes when matchups are favorable. Diop and Damp have been more than serviceable versus the Suns given their lack of rebounding and Damps prowess for offensive boards. Webber would just be icing on the cake.

 

[greensborohill]

I think that if this happens your looking at a 2nd unit that would consist of Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Chris Webber, & Eric Dampier. All older players but all proven scores w/ the exception of Dampier who is an above average defender down low and one of the best offensive rebounders in the NBA. Offensively that squad could hang with the Suns starters for short stretches and is ahead of the Suns 6-9 guys.

 

[Covert Rain]

And if Webber were to sign, he would prob. get 20-25 MPG at the backup four and spot 5 minutes when match-ups are favorable. Diop and Damp have been more than serviceable versus the Suns given their lack of rebounding and Damps prowess for offensive boards. Webber would just be icing on the cake.

Since when has Diop and Damp been serviceable? Damp has had only a couple good games (including that massive offensive rebounding game) against the Suns. Diop I don't think has ever showed up. More then anything they both have been in foul trouble against the Suns and spent allot of time on the bench.

I think that if this happens your looking at a 2nd unit that would consist of Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Chris Webber, & Eric Dampier. All older players but all proven scores w/ the exception of Dampier who is an above average defender down low and one of the best offensive rebounders in the NBA. Offensively that squad could hang with the Suns starters for short stretches and is ahead of the Suns 6-9 guys.

Also, I would love to see Diop and Webber on the court at the same time. Our forwards will run circles around your front court if that's the case. Webber can't defend that well anymore either.

I do like what C-Webb adds to your low post scoring though. He is not going to light up anybody but he is a legit threat under the basket which the Mavs really don't have in Diop and Damp at this point.

 

[greensborohill]

Since when has Diop and Damp been serviceable? Damp has had only a couple good games (including that massive offensive rebounding game) against the Suns. Diop I don't think has ever showed up. More then anything they both have been in foul trouble against the Suns and spent allot of time on the bench.



Also, I would love to see Diop and Webber on the court at the same time. Our forwards will run circles around your front court if that's the case. Webber can't defend that well anymore either.

I do like what C-Webb adds to your low post scoring though. He is not going to light up anybody but he is a legit threat under the basket which the Mavs really don't have in Diop and Damp at this point.

Diop was instrumental in the WCF versus the Suns in 06.

 

[Rab]

Diop was instrumental in the WCF versus the Suns in 06.

When we had no size. Hell, Greg Ostertag would've been effective against the midgets we threw out there.

 

[greensborohill]

When we had no size. Hell, Greg Ostertag would've been effective against the midgets we threw out there.

Fine, you guys are Gods gift to basketball.

TTYL

 

[Bufalay]

Diop was instrumental in the WCF versus the Suns in 06.

Diop did a pretty good job on Diaw.

 

[greensborohill]

Diop did a pretty good job on Diaw.

That's what I was referencing.

 

[Covert Rain]

Fine, you guys are Gods gift to basketball.

TTYL

Nobody said that and I think Amare adds a new dimension..don't you? Personally I would love to see Diop/C-Webb matched up against Diaw/Amare.