Cal Poly @ ASU

[CardsFan88]

Got nobody to blame but your athletic department for that one. Vegas had you pegged at 8.5 wins but despite clear talent deficiencies Graham's Kool aid train kept on chugging. Not sure why ASU has always set the bar so high with generally only 2-3 NFL players on the two deep. Did this during Koetter's days too which led to a lot of fan grousing.

Sorry but ASU is not a national championship level program and probably won't ever be. Just too many factors working against it primarily lack of local talent. I'm not gloating when saying this as UofA is in the exact same boat. It would just take a huge confluence of luck (expanding playoff field, a once in a generation merge of talent such as '96 ASU or '93 UA, huge declines in stature of SoCal programs for starters) or a large demographic change in Arizona that would take generations for our local programs to win a natty. That's just our reality.

Actually there is a ton of local talent...

The problem is, Graham doesn't recruit them.

My friend was a coach for the sabercats and their stars players literally had to beg to get Graham to even look at them.

You know that Christian Kirk who destroyed us with A&M.... he was one of them.

We FINALLY started to recruit him late, but by then it was too late.

Graham simply doesn't try to recruit the MASSIVE amount of talent here. We're not Cal/Texas/Florida, but we have a lot.

Kirk WANTED to be a Sun Devil, until we screwed it up. Right when he ran the kick back I texted my friend... Kirk comes back to haunt Graham.

From last year (3 of the top 25... #4, #14, #15)
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/f...lass/2015/view/state/order/true/state/arizona

...and 2014 (3 of the top 36.... #3,#14,#26)
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/f...lass/2014/view/state/order/true/state/arizona

Wouldn't of it been nice to have Allen backing up Bercovici... or even challenging him? Who do we have Manny Wilkins next year?

...and 2013 (2 of the top 28... #5, 10)
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/f...lass/2013/view/state/order/true/state/arizona

So basically four top 10 recruits from Arizona in the last three years, and we have a game like A&M where Arizona talent is beating ASU.

According to ESPN there have been 17 4-star recruits the last three years in Arizona (the vast majority located within a 30 or so mile circle around ASU in the Phoenix Metro area). ASU signed TWO. (Tyler Whiley, Bryce Perkins)

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Go back and look at those lists. At best 4-5 serviceable D1 players per year. Maybe 2-3 NFL draft picks over those 3 years conbined. Extremely difficult to build a championship program with that local talent plus you have to split with UofA.

 

[CardsFan88]

Go back and look at those lists. At best 4-5 serviceable D1 players per year. Maybe 2-3 NFL draft picks over those 3 years conbined. Extremely difficult to build a championship program with that local talent plus you have to split with UofA.

It's still early. 2013, '14, '15 are freshman to juniors... plus redshirts. That number will go up.

4-5 serviceable guys per year is about 20 over the course of a 4-5 year period. That would mean ASU would have considerably more talent then they do now because we're missing out on about 17 or so of those 20.

Why get a 2 or 3 star from somewhere else when a 4 star is here?

You combine the best of that list with other areas and juco's and ASU could easily have a championship program. There is no way we should only be getting about ten percent of the top 10 our state churns out.

You don't necessarily split it with Tucson, 90+ percent of those are from the Phoenix area. Most would naturally want to stay at ASU if we showed interest, just like the top recruits from Tucson like to stay with UofA when they do.

I'm not making the case that you need to solely rely on the Phoenix area or Arizona, I'm saying you recruit in the places ASU always does (and get some good players like we always do) but also make sure you keep your local talent.

People naturally want to go to ASU as evidenced by it being one of the biggest colleges in the nation, and last I checked about half or more are not from here. Drawing people isn't a problem, the problem is, not adding to what we draw by keeping the local talent, which IS pretty darn good... growing, and getting better.

You have to remember also, the Phoenix area is replete with top notch NFL and in general pro sports training. The knowledge, tools, and instruction are here. Increasingly kids here are tapping into that and so we will churn out more talent then many other places of comparable size.

ASU actually has a major advantage because not many places have lots of talent right around them, plus are a natural draw. Most good places have tradition and good recruiting going for them. Texas A&M had plenty of players to draw upon from Texas, but they stole our guys and it killed us.

We could easily have 3 of the 4, while tradition would take time.

I'd literally say ASU is in better position then over 90 percent of college Div 1 programs, maybe higher.

We need to keep getting the 4 and 5 stars from other places, but also keep OUR 4 and 5 star recruits.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Got nobody to blame but your athletic department for that one. Vegas had you pegged at 8.5 wins but despite clear talent deficiencies Graham's Kool aid train kept on chugging. Not sure why ASU has always set the bar so high with generally only 2-3 NFL players on the two deep. Did this during Koetter's days too which led to a lot of fan grousing.

Sorry but ASU is not a national championship level program and probably won't ever be. Just too many factors working against it primarily lack of local talent. I'm not gloating when saying this as UofA is in the exact same boat. It would just take a huge confluence of luck (expanding playoff field, a once in a generation merge of talent such as '96 ASU or '93 UA, huge declines in stature of SoCal programs for starters) or a large demographic change in Arizona that would take generations for our local programs to win a natty. That's just our reality.

any objective fan of either of team would be hard pressed to disagree with the above.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

It's still early. 2013, '14, '15 are freshman to juniors... plus redshirts. That number will go up.

4-5 serviceable guys per year is about 20 over the course of a 4-5 year period. That would mean ASU would have considerably more talent then they do now because we're missing out on about 17 or so of those 20.

Why get a 2 or 3 star from somewhere else when a 4 star is here?

You combine the best of that list with other areas and juco's and ASU could easily have a championship program. There is no way we should only be getting about ten percent of the top 10 our state churns out.

You don't necessarily split it with Tucson, 90+ percent of those are from the Phoenix area. Most would naturally want to stay at ASU if we showed interest, just like the top recruits from Tucson like to stay with UofA when they do.

I'm not making the case that you need to solely rely on the Phoenix area or Arizona, I'm saying you recruit in the places ASU always does (and get some good players like we always do) but also make sure you keep your local talent.

People naturally want to go to ASU as evidenced by it being one of the biggest colleges in the nation, and last I checked about half or more are not from here. Drawing people isn't a problem, the problem is, not adding to what we draw by keeping the local talent, which IS pretty darn good... growing, and getting better.

You have to remember also, the Phoenix area is replete with top notch NFL and in general pro sports training. The knowledge, tools, and instruction are here. Increasingly kids here are tapping into that and so we will churn out more talent then many other places of comparable size.

ASU actually has a major advantage because not many places have lots of talent right around them, plus are a natural draw. Most good places have tradition and good recruiting going for them. Texas A&M had plenty of players to draw upon from Texas, but they stole our guys and it killed us.

We could easily have 3 of the 4, while tradition would take time.

I'd literally say ASU is in better position then over 90 percent of college Div 1 programs, maybe higher.

We need to keep getting the 4 and 5 stars from other places, but also keep OUR 4 and 5 star recruits.

There's zero metric that shows Arizona produces a lot of football talent. Show me stats, I don't care about conjecture on why ASU could be a championship program. I can make similar hypothetical arguments for about 60 college football programs most of which will never come close to winning a natty.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Got nobody to blame but your athletic department for that one. Vegas had you pegged at 8.5 wins but despite clear talent deficiencies Graham's Kool aid train kept on chugging. Not sure why ASU has always set the bar so high with generally only 2-3 NFL players on the two deep. Did this during Koetter's days too which led to a lot of fan grousing.

Sorry but ASU is not a national championship level program and probably won't ever be. Just too many factors working against it primarily lack of local talent. I'm not gloating when saying this as UofA is in the exact same boat. It would just take a huge confluence of luck (expanding playoff field, a once in a generation merge of talent such as '96 ASU or '93 UA, huge declines in stature of SoCal programs for starters) or a large demographic change in Arizona that would take generations for our local programs to win a natty. That's just our reality.

This is truth... You won't get an argument out of me...

 

[ajcardfan]

I been hearing since I moved here in 1977 that ASU is a "sleeping giant" with "advantages in recruiting" because of the climate. Well, almost 40 years later I'm still waiting to see ASU become a consistently strong program.


Oh, and Texas A&M is going head-to-head with ASU on the two top rated players in the state right now. Murphy (CB) at Saguaro and Harry (WR) from Chandler.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I been hearing since I moved here in 1977 that ASU is a "sleeping giant" with "advantages in recruiting" because of the climate. Well, almost 40 years later I'm still waiting to see ASU become a consistently strong program.

The things I always hear to justify why ASU can be an elite program is the weather is nice, the girls are hot, and the party scene is great. Here's the problem...

1. The weather is comparable in places like Tucson and the Texas schools and better in the California schools which is where ASU primarily recruits. Not an definitive ASU advantage in that regard to any of those schools.

2. Yes, ASU girls are very attractive. But when you're a football player you nail the hottest girls on campus whether you go to ASU or Southwest Presbyterian or wherever so there's not really much of a pull there either.

3. Yes, the party scene is great. But do you really want to be recruiting kids who go to a school because of the social life?

The elite programs have at least one of the following things going for them: access to a fertile local recruiting base, premier academic reputation, tradition of excellence, or Phil Knight's money. ASU has none of the above. Not impossile to get there but will take awhile.

 

[82CardsGrad]

The elite programs have at least one of the following things going for them: access to a fertile local recruiting base, premier academic reputation, tradition of excellence, or Phil Knight's money. ASU has none of the above. Not impossile to get there but will take awhile.

You're right of course... And given that, it makes what schools in the SEC, like Bama, Auburn, Florida and though not in the SEC - Fla. St., have done that much more impressive. I would think that the talent would be spread so thin across these and so many other top-tier schools, that sustained dominance would be nearly impossible.
The talent disparity between Texas A&M and ASU alone was nothing short of startling. And it's not like ASU is fielding a bunch of Div 1-AA talent. Yet, the schools I mentioned above, as well as Oregon, USC, UCLA and Ohio St possess such an overwhelming % of that true elite talent, it's almost not even fair...

 

[Mainstreet]

Got nobody to blame but your athletic department for that one. Vegas had you pegged at 8.5 wins but despite clear talent deficiencies Graham's Kool aid train kept on chugging. Not sure why ASU has always set the bar so high with generally only 2-3 NFL players on the two deep. Did this during Koetter's days too which led to a lot of fan grousing.

Sorry but ASU is not a national championship level program and probably won't ever be. Just too many factors working against it primarily lack of local talent. I'm not gloating when saying this as UofA is in the exact same boat. It would just take a huge confluence of luck (expanding playoff field, a once in a generation merge of talent such as '96 ASU or '93 UA, huge declines in stature of SoCal programs for starters) or a large demographic change in Arizona that would take generations for our local programs to win a natty. That's just our reality.

For those who don't remember or choose to forget:

In 1996, the Sun Devils went a surprising 11–1, highlighted by a 19–0 shutout of the number-one-ranked, two-time defending national champion, Nebraska Cornhuskers in Tempe, ending Nebraska's 26-game win streak. The upset win also gained a measure of revenge from the previous season, when they went into Lincoln and were not only destroyed by a 77–28 margin, but enraged after the eventual national champions threw a long touchdown pass in the game's final minutes. ASU quarterback Jake Plummer led the Sun Devils, propelling Arizona State into the Rose Bowl against the Ohio State Buckeyes. Had the Sun Devils won, they would have had a very good chance of winning at least a share of the national championship, as they would have been the only undefeated major-college team in the nation. The Sun Devils held a slim 17–14 lead with 1:47 left in the fourth quarter, but surrendered a late touchdown to Ohio State, falling by a final score of 20–17. As it turned out, Florida State lost in the Sugar Bowl to the Florida Gators; had the Sun Devils won a few days earlier, ASU would have had a perfect 12–0 record while the Gators would have finished with one regular season loss (ironically, to the Seminoles).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Arizona_State_Sun_Devils_football_team

 

[Absolute Zero]

Nice reminders Mainstreet. We were one prevent defense away from a National Championship when Jake Plummer was here. It is doable here at ASU if you can bring the right players together and stay healthy, and of course, have a bit of luck here and there.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Nice reminders Mainstreet. We were one prevent defense away from a National Championship when Jake Plummer was here. It is doable here at ASU if you can bring the right players together and stay healthy, and of course, have a bit of luck here and there.

All Main did is prove my point, especially when anyone who watched that team could tell you they were just as close to playing in the Holiday Bowl as they were winning the National Championship. Two decades ago in a Pac-10 that was completely awful, with NFL talent all over the roster specifically the QB position, and winning every close regular season game ASU couldn't bring home a Natty and haven't been close since. How often are all those factors going to come together for a program like ASU? Every few decades maybe.

The programs that win national championships are the ones with over 10 NFL guys on their two deep so that they steamroll 80% of the schedule and win a few close ones. ASU has never had anywhere close to that level of talent and even with their improved recruiting aren't close.

 

[ajcardfan]

All Main did is prove my point, especially when anyone who watched that team could tell you they were just as close to playing in the Holiday Bowl as they were winning the National Championship. Two decades ago in a Pac-10 that was completely awful, with NFL talent all over the roster specifically the QB position, and winning every close regular season game ASU couldn't bring home a Natty and haven't been close since. How often are all those factors going to come together for a program like ASU? Every few decades maybe.

The programs that win national championships are the ones with over 10 NFL guys on their two deep so that they steamroll 80% of the schedule and win a few close ones. ASU has never had anywhere close to that level of talent and even with their improved recruiting aren't close.

As ASU fan who has had many discussions about that 98 team with other ASU fans who point to that time as how ASU can be elite...

No one seems to remember how lucky we were in hitting on recruits with that team. Plummer and Tillman specifically, but far from being the only ones, were almost off the recruiting radar. Yet, they turned out to be special. Then, after that amazing run, we could not build on it. Still waiting and hoping.