Calvin Pace is quietly having a good season

[SECTION 11]

I think Pace has done pretty well overall.


He's started every game on a defensive line that doesn't command any double teams for one thing.

Personally I put more stock into run defense on the defensive line than pass rush anyway and Pace has done pretty well (as has the rest of the line) against the run. They've shut down some quality backs this season. Barlow and Lewis had good days against them, but overall the run defense has been solid.

As far as the pass rush goes, we don't have that sack-meister specialist, but with our corners it won't matter anyway.
You can't pass rush a three step slant.

Look at St. Louis' two games against us;
34 passing first downs
56 completions
Only 6.2 yards per pass. The worst passing attack in the league (Baltimore) is averaging 10.6 yards per pass.

With better cover corners our pass rush will be dramatically improved. More sacks, pressures, hits and turnovers through better coverage.

So if it's not Eli Manning, trade down and get Sean Taylor and DeAngelo Hall through the draft, Antoine Winfield in free agency, keep Starks and see what kind of pressure King, Pace, Johnson, Thompson, et al can generate when playing with a full deck.


Remember, Pace was regarded as the best athelete in the ACC (including Mr. Boldin).
One of his weaknesses was generating a push when taking on the offensive tackle head-on (which appears to be a good preseason take on him) but one of his stregnths was his ability to stunt. Seen any stunts lately? I haven't.


Positives:
Well-developed athlete, with a muscular upper-body frame …
Great character type who goes full speed in practice and works hard in the weight room …
Has a very quick initial step off the line to get into the blocker …
Has the strength needed to hold his ground at the point of attack and uses his hands effectively to shed …
Displays excellent hand punch, doing a fine job of keeping the blockers off his body …
Has a very sharp change of direction, flashing the ability to work down the line …
Strong wrapup tackler who explodes into ball carriers …
Protects his legs well working and stepping over the trash …
Has a quick burst to the quarterback chasing from the back side…
Very effective on stunts and lines up at both defensive end spots (works mostly in isolated coverage) …
His strong upper-body frame allows him to generate a fierce bull rush, showing very good technique while playing at a low-pad level to walk the offensive lineman back into the pocket …
Shows good quickness coming off the edge.

Negatives:
Does not always generate a good push coming off the snap, especially when he challenges the offensive tackle head-on …
While he recognizes the play developing, he is a little slow locating the ball when working inside …
Solid player, but seems to lack a mean streak …
Needs to work on redirecting quicker as he struggles at times to get off blocks (lacks counter moves) and will generally get clogged up by the larger blockers when working near the pile.


1) Is he being used to his stregnths as opposed to played into his weaknesses?

2) Does he, or any pass rushing DE, stand a chance when backed up by this secondary?

I think the answer to both of those questions is "No."

 

[Pariah]

With better cover corners our pass rush will be dramatically improved. More sacks, pressures, hits and turnovers through better coverage.

With all due respect (how much is that, anyway?), I think this is bassackwards reasoning. Our CB play will improve with a better pass rush, not the otherway around.

Sure, you can't pass rush a six-yard slant, but so far we haven't forced anyone to run a six-yard slant. We can't expect our sacks to be coverage sacks, we need to force opposing QBs to get rid of the ball sooner then they want to.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Pariah
With all due respect (how much is that, anyway?), I think this is bassackwards reasoning. Our CB play will improve with a better pass rush, not the otherway around.

Sure, you can't pass rush a six-yard slant, but so far we haven't forced anyone to run a six-yard slant. We can't expect our sacks to be coverage sacks, we need to force opposing QBs to get rid of the ball sooner then they want to.

St. Louis ran them all day long.

I don't think our personnel at defensive end is anywhere near as bad as our corners at this point.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by SECTION 11

St. Louis ran them all day long.

Right, but were they doing it because they didn't have time for anything else? Hardly. We didn't FORCE them into that.

I'm not saying we don't need to improve at CB. Not at all. It's a HUGE weakness. Fortunatley there are some good prospects in the draft (I've seen mocks where Vasher is going early in the second) and there are plenty of CB due to hit the FA market.

All I'm saying is that you can't expect coverage to improve our pass rush, whereas you can expect the pass rush to improve our coverage.

A coverage sack every once in a while is fantastic, but they shouldn't be relied upon for QB pressure (that's not really the definition of pressure, is it?)

Anyway, I agree with you that Pace is having an alright year. If we can get a blue-chip edge pass-rusher, our DE positions look great with Johnson and Pace both playing well.

 

[40yearfan]

I agree with Section 11 on this. Our CB's play too far off the line of scrimmage. QB's can pick us apart on the short slant across the middle where the soft part of the zone is. If our CB's would bump the WR's at the line of scrimmage, it would disrupt that play and give our DL more time to get at the passer.

Case in point, yesterday, Barrett played off and gave the WR on his side a wide berth (especially on the Panthers last drive of the game). Two or three quick sideline passes and they were in a position to kick the field goal and win the game. If Barrett would have played up on him and not allowed those sideline passes, they would have had to go down the middle and time would have run out before they could have kicked the field goal. Poor planning and even worse execution.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Pariah
Right, but were they doing it because they didn't have time for anything else? Hardly. We didn't FORCE them into that.

They ran them because that's what they do. We knew that, but without the personnel at CB, our choice was either to give up five slants for ten yard gains or one for fifty.
Either way they weren't going to bother with five and seven step drops. Why would they?

 

[RedStorm]

Quietly is correct. He has been quiet.

However, what can you expect from a rookie. Hopefully with better coaching he will be able to get a push and command a double team. Otherwise, we will need to get someone else.

 

[Red Fury]

I don't think our personnel at defensive end is anywhere near as bad as our corners at this point.

That's like choosing which way you want to be executed, shot or stabbed. I think that the defensive ends and corners have been horrible this season.

Pace has been a disappointment this year but I do believe it is too soon to give up on him and call him a bust.

 

[SweetD]

How come everyone is saying the expected much more from Pace not many rookie D-Linemen light it up in there first year. He was not a top 10 pick. I didn't expect him to have to play starting RT End. I was expecting him to play LE with KVB on the RE until he would be ready to Start at RE. I for one like his progress this year and look forward to him being here for a few years.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Red Fury
That's like choosing which way you want to be executed, shot or stabbed. I think that the defensive ends and corners have been horrible this season.

Pace has been a disappointment this year but I do believe it is too soon to give up on him and call him a bust.

Do you remember what it was like to have a crap run defense?
You're much worse off if you get consistently run on.

 

[vince56]

Pace is only a disappointment because we had Rice get 17 sacks his rookie year. With the right coach/ scheme pace will do great. Remember, Rice had Eric Swann next to him that year. That big DT drew double teams for him. Pace doesn't have that.

 

[AZCB34]

I wish he was loudly having a great season.

Good post though 11.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by SweetD
How come everyone is saying the expected much more from Pace not many rookie D-Linemen light it up in there first year. He was not a top 10 pick. I didn't expect him to have to play starting RT End. I was expecting him to play LE with KVB on the RE until he would be ready to Start at RE. I for one like his progress this year and look forward to him being here for a few years.

Nice post!

Pace will be a player!

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by RedStorm
Quietly is correct. He has been quiet.

Hopefully with better coaching he will be able to get a push and command a double team.

I'll have a some observations in a couple of weeks

 

[JeffGollin]

Calvin's role coming off the edge from the right side is to make things happen.

Even if he was only a mid-1st round draft pick and needs time to develop, we should be seeing more than we're seeing.

Having said that, I still think our #1 and #2 priorities are two shutdown CB's.

That Barrett and Hill played so far off their men in the final 1:09 of the game ticked me off, but didn't surprise me. But what really upsets me is that, on no play during that final Carolina drive did the DC convey to his corners - "They're going to keep hitting guys on the side line, and if we let them, we're going to die a slow death. So I want you both to be ready to jump the next play - and I want two of our other DB's to cover your butt with deep protection."

Mac says "It's up to the corners" whether on not to play tight. I say bullbleep! Sometimes your defensive coaching staff has to give its players "courage pills" or they're going to play scared (or at least very conservatively). Someone should have said "Take your shot/we've got you covered."

 

[phinius]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Calvin's role coming off the edge from the right side is to make things happen.

Even if he was only a mid-1st round draft pick and needs time to develop, we should be seeing more than we're seeing.

Having said that, I still think our #1 and #2 priorities are two shutdown CB's.

That Barrett and Hill played so far off their men in the final 1:09 of the game ticked me off, but didn't surprise me. But what really upsets me is that, on no play during that final Carolina drive did the DC convey to his corners - "They're going to keep hitting guys on the side line, and if we let them, we're going to die a slow death. So I want you both to be ready to jump the next play - and I want two of our other DB's to cover your butt with deep protection."

Mac says "It's up to the corners" whether on not to play tight. I say bullbleep! Sometimes your defensive coaching staff has to give its players "courage pills" or they're going to play scared (or at least very conservatively). Someone should have said "Take your shot/we've got you covered."

Its hard to believe that the coaching staff says "its up to the corners whether or not to play tight." There must be some coordination on where anyone plays on defense.
Phinius the old timer

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
I think Pace has done pretty well overall.


He's started every game on a defensive line that doesn't command any double teams for one thing.

Personally I put more stock into run defense on the defensive line than pass rush anyway and Pace has done pretty well (as has the rest of the line) against the run. They've shut down some quality backs this season. Barlow and Lewis had good days against them, but overall the run defense has been solid.

As far as the pass rush goes, we don't have that sack-meister specialist, but with our corners it won't matter anyway.
You can't pass rush a three step slant.

Look at St. Louis' two games against us;
34 passing first downs
56 completions
Only 6.2 yards per pass. The worst passing attack in the league (Baltimore) is averaging 10.6 yards per pass.

With better cover corners our pass rush will be dramatically improved. More sacks, pressures, hits and turnovers through better coverage.

So if it's not Eli Manning, trade down and get Sean Taylor and DeAngelo Hall through the draft, Antoine Winfield in free agency, keep Starks and see what kind of pressure King, Pace, Johnson, Thompson, et al can generate when playing with a full deck.


Remember, Pace was regarded as the best athelete in the ACC (including Mr. Boldin).
One of his weaknesses was generating a push when taking on the offensive tackle head-on (which appears to be a good preseason take on him) but one of his stregnths was his ability to stunt. Seen any stunts lately? I haven't.


Positives:
Well-developed athlete, with a muscular upper-body frame …
Great character type who goes full speed in practice and works hard in the weight room …
Has a very quick initial step off the line to get into the blocker …
Has the strength needed to hold his ground at the point of attack and uses his hands effectively to shed …
Displays excellent hand punch, doing a fine job of keeping the blockers off his body …
Has a very sharp change of direction, flashing the ability to work down the line …
Strong wrapup tackler who explodes into ball carriers …
Protects his legs well working and stepping over the trash …
Has a quick burst to the quarterback chasing from the back side…
Very effective on stunts and lines up at both defensive end spots (works mostly in isolated coverage) …
His strong upper-body frame allows him to generate a fierce bull rush, showing very good technique while playing at a low-pad level to walk the offensive lineman back into the pocket …
Shows good quickness coming off the edge.

Negatives:
Does not always generate a good push coming off the snap, especially when he challenges the offensive tackle head-on …
While he recognizes the play developing, he is a little slow locating the ball when working inside …
Solid player, but seems to lack a mean streak …
Needs to work on redirecting quicker as he struggles at times to get off blocks (lacks counter moves) and will generally get clogged up by the larger blockers when working near the pile.


1) Is he being used to his stregnths as opposed to played into his weaknesses?

2) Does he, or any pass rushing DE, stand a chance when backed up by this secondary?

I think the answer to both of those questions is "No."

Nice post Section...


I have said many times that Pace needs to learn stronger 'pass rushing' moves. He has never played a 'speed rusher' role before and was not going to play Re until KVB got hurt.

I also think the last few games he has slowed down a bit because he is a rookie and the season/schedule is taking a toll on him.

He has played the run well all year and he will be a solid player for this team. He just needs someone to teach him how to get around a Tackle besides a straight on bull rush. Once he masters a few different moves he will be fine!

 

[Stout]

He's having a poor year, thank you. Hey, the kid's proving solid against the run. Good, he's doing what just about every other DE in the league SHOULD be doing. And it's ALL he's doing.

Now, the list of stuff he is NOT doing:

-Getting any kind of steady pressure on the QB
-Commanding double teams
-Blowing plays up in the backfield
-Living up to his paycheck
-Living up to his draft status


Now, people may say give him some time, get him some better coaches, blah blah blah. Fine, I'll give him that. It's his rookie season and it's been a crappy situation to come into. But if this is what we label a solid season for such an important position, then we may as well just quit the NFL now.

And anyone, ANYONE that wants to argue he must be good because he's the starter, needs to look at our roster again before even thinking of claiming that.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

Originally posted by Stout
He's having a poor year, thank you. Hey, the kid's proving solid against the run. Good, he's doing what just about every other DE in the league SHOULD be doing. And it's ALL he's doing.

Now, the list of stuff he is NOT doing:

-Getting any kind of steady pressure on the QB
-Commanding double teams
-Blowing plays up in the backfield
-Living up to his paycheck
-Living up to his draft status


Now, people may say give him some time, get him some better coaches, blah blah blah. Fine, I'll give him that. It's his rookie season and it's been a crappy situation to come into. But if this is what we label a solid season for such an important position, then we may as well just quit the NFL now.

And anyone, ANYONE that wants to argue he must be good because he's the starter, needs to look at our roster again before even thinking of claiming that.

Good post, the Cards D-line was horrible last season and the big upgrade at DE they made was C Pace, a guy who's not even known for his pass rushing. If having a mediocre very unspectacular season = good, then this team sure has some gamers on it. Some times I feel we don't judge our teams players accurately, because we love our team so much we over value guys. I'm guilty as hell of it when the new Football games drop I'm always complaining about how low of a rating they give to certain players, when the annual season Football mags drop, Sporting News, Street and Smiths,etc. I always feel they rank the Cardinal to poorly and gett all offended. But the truth is this team is terrible and the talent level is poor, but lets hope for some great off season moves

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Stout
He's having a poor year, thank you. Hey, the kid's proving solid against the run. Good, he's doing what just about every other DE in the league SHOULD be doing. And it's ALL he's doing.

Now, the list of stuff he is NOT doing:

-Getting any kind of steady pressure on the QB
-Commanding double teams
-Blowing plays up in the backfield
-Living up to his paycheck
-Living up to his draft status


Now, people may say give him some time, get him some better coaches, blah blah blah. Fine, I'll give him that. It's his rookie season and it's been a crappy situation to come into. But if this is what we label a solid season for such an important position, then we may as well just quit the NFL now.

And anyone, ANYONE that wants to argue he must be good because he's the starter, needs to look at our roster again before even thinking of claiming that.

ditto - in general.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

WOAH !

Nobody said ANYTHING about getting rid of Pace!

SO his ROOKIE year wasn't that much. He stayed healthy, and played well against some ALL-PRO TACKLES.

He is a good player. You want him on this team.

Peace

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Stout
He's having a poor year, thank you. Hey, the kid's proving solid against the run. Good, he's doing what just about every other DE in the league SHOULD be doing. And it's ALL he's doing.

Now, the list of stuff he is NOT doing:

-Getting any kind of steady pressure on the QB
-Commanding double teams
-Blowing plays up in the backfield
-Living up to his paycheck
-Living up to his draft status


Now, people may say give him some time, get him some better coaches, blah blah blah. Fine, I'll give him that. It's his rookie season and it's been a crappy situation to come into. But if this is what we label a solid season for such an important position, then we may as well just quit the NFL now.

And anyone, ANYONE that wants to argue he must be good because he's the starter, needs to look at our roster again before even thinking of claiming that.

I never stated he is having a good season. What I do know is that given the circumstances, and what he needs to work on he will be fine.

Lets take alook at the other D-Lineman drafted before him shall we:

Dewayne Robertson #4 38 TACKLES 2 SACKS
Jonathan Sullivan #6 27 TACKLES 1 SACK
Keven Williams #9 41 TACKLES 8 SACKS
Jimmy Kennedy #12 1 TACKLE 0 SACKS
Ty Warren #13 18 TACKLES 1 SACK
Michael Haynes #14 17 TACKLES 2 SACKS
Jerome McDougal #15 4 TACKLES 0 SACKS
Calvin Pace #17 29 TACKLES 1 SACK



My point is pretty obvious, but you must be saying that none of thse guys are contributing b/c none of their numbers (oputside Williams 8 sacks) are anything to write home about

Not only that, but all of them play on better teams with better defenses than the Cards and are surrounded by better players on the DL


Give the kid a break already!

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'll qualify my "ditto - in general" - he's not having a "poor" season as Stout had said - IMO - he just hasn't been a factor much this year - but he's a rook and lord knows he probably not getting NFL level coaching - that being said - if say we don't improve the pass rush through free agency - I just hope I don't have to read how good our D-line is going to be next year with Johnson and Pace "coming on" with a year experience under their belt.

He's a question mark next year IMO - nothing more - nothing less - but to say he's been "good" is an overstep I think.

 

[Stout]

Poor may be rather harsh, considering he's a rookie.

If we look at it in a purely production and playing standpoint, poor is probably too kind. As the supposed 'premier' pass rusher on this team, he has failed utterly.

If, however, we look at it as a rookie thrust into a nearly impossible situation, then there is a different vibe. He still hasn't played well (and it matters exactly zero how good other rookie DL picked before him have done), but he's a rookie, and he should NOT be starting, and certainly shouldn't be starting as our #1 pass rusher.

So, I won't exactly give him a pass, per se, but I'll give him an incomplete. If he doesn't show something for a first rounder paid bukku bucks next season, then it's time to panic, folks. Still, I haven't seen anything thus far to make me expect anything special.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Stout
Still, I haven't seen anything thus far to make me expect anything special.

that I completely agree with. By the way - Bet big on the Hags - spread's at 13 - they'll double that - you listening swd1974 - the Cheese has spoken and my rent depends on it - unfortunately - last time I bet - I got a little to "Vegas" (read: smashed) and kept betting - freaking Lakers blowing that 21 point lead to the Jazz - I hate the Lakers!!!!!