Calvin Pace is quietly having a good season

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Stout
Still, I haven't seen anything thus far to make me expect anything special.

How do you know that?


Like Russ posted here last week. Look at Strahan. Had what 4 sacks his first and second year (from the left side) and now look at him.

Pace has never, I repeat NEVER played RDE and that transition alone is hard. Not to mention the poor play of the defense, the fact that he has gone up against the best left tackles in the game, and that fact that he is a rookie with little to no coaching.

I am not sure why you used the term "premiere Pass Rusher" That isnt what he is. That isnt what he was in College, and that isnt what he will be in the NFL.

What he will be is a solid LDE (when the coaches finally realize where he SHOULD be playing) who will play the run very very well, and might get 10 sacks.

He will not be Simoeon Rice and get 16-17 sacks a year, or Strahan with his 20+.

I dont think you guys understand the diffuculty of not only being a rookie DE on a bad team with a bad line, but also playing completly out of position.

And him having a "poor" season does have something to do with the other D-Lineman drafted ahead of him. Fact is, it proves that getting Dwight Freeney type production from a rookie D-lineman is an exception not the rule!

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
How do you know that?


Like Russ posted here last week. Look at Strahan. Had what 4 sacks his first and second year (from the left side) and now look at him.

Pace has never, I repeat NEVER played RDE and that transition alone is hard. Not to mention the poor play of the defense, the fact that he has gone up against the best left tackles in the game, and that fact that he is a rookie with little to no coaching.

I am not sure why you used the term "premiere Pass Rusher" That isnt what he is. That isnt what he was in College, and that isnt what he will be in the NFL.

What he will be is a solid LDE (when the coaches finally realize where he SHOULD be playing) who will play the run very very well, and might get 10 sacks.

He will not be Simoeon Rice and get 16-17 sacks a year, or Strahan with his 20+.

I dont think you guys understand the diffuculty of not only being a rookie DE on a bad team with a bad line, but also playing completly out of position.

And him having a "poor" season does have something to do with the other D-Lineman drafted ahead of him. Fact is, it proves that getting Dwight Freeney type production from a rookie D-lineman is an exception not the rule!

The question shouldn't be what have I seen to make me not expect anything special...the question should be what have YOU seen to expect anything special? The very fact that I haven't seen anything speaks volumes. I'm not saying he won't turn out good. I'm just saying I haven't really seen anything from the kid yet. I mean, sure, there's Strahan, but I'd be willing to wager there are more Erik Flowers than Strahan's.

Your second point, on Pace not being a RDE: Then why did we draft him in the first round. IMO, you do NOT draft a non-pass rushing DE in the first round. Never. Ever. It's called reaching. If we seriously didn't believe he could be a solid pass rusher, we shouldn't have drafted him in the 1st.

You make a fair point about the coaching and the defense. The coaching has stunk, and the defense is nothing special. Of course, this is just an indictment of his being in the starting lineup, and therefore an indictment his skill level at this time. He wasn't ready to start-he wasn't even close to it. In truth, he wasn't ready to come on for pass-rushing duties-obviously. Now, will he develop under better coaching, or on a better defense? Hopefully, but like I said before, he's NOT showing flashes of better play (although he is a solid run-stuffer).

I also love how you say he's a run-stuffing LDE, then say he has the potential to get 10 sacks a season. What are you basing this on? A hope and a dream? Seriously, he's had one sack, and not much pressure. Don't use Strahan-such phenoms are the exception, not the rule. What have YOU seen that makes you believe this?

And seriously, if we didn't think he could be a pretty damn good, if not premier, RDE pass rusher, why the hell did we draft him in the mid-first round? Eh? That's a waste of a 1st rounder and reeeeeaaaaaaching!

And just about the only thing you can say when you compare Pace to the D-linemen drafted above him is...just goes to show you should have stayed pat and taken oh, say, Lefty? The smart pick?

Oh well. You want to believe Pace has potential. I have HOPE he has potential to be so good, but I've seen nothing to really show me anything.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Stout

Your second point, on Pace not being a RDE: Then why did we draft him in the first round. IMO, you do NOT draft a non-pass rushing DE in the first round. Never. Ever. It's called reaching. If we seriously didn't believe he could be a solid pass rusher, we shouldn't have drafted him in the 1st.

Check the top 10 sack guys, of the top 10 sack guys in the NFL I see only Simeon Rice, Bert Berry, Dwight Freeney and Aaron Schobel play RDE, the other 6 are all LDE's. 5 of the top 6 in sacks are LDE's.

Note this is from NFL.com sortable stats under D linemen, they do not count Suggs for example who is listed at LOLB and often lines up at LDE.

So the point is, a LOT of NFL teams are getting more sacks from the left DE than the right because you don't have to go up against the elite LT's. If it continues maybe NFL teams will stop putting their best OL at LT, I doubt it they like to protect the blindside and most Qb's are right handed, but right now it seems like more sacks are actually coming from the left side.

When you look at elite young pass rushers in the NFL Freeney and Peppers are on the right side but Ogunleye, Little, Rucker and Ellis are all on the left side.

If Pace were playing LDE I'd bet anything he'd have more than 1 sack, still wouldn't be Simeon Rice, but it's a lot tougher to get sacks on the right side than the left.

 

[SECTION 11]

He played both sides in college.
From the sounds of it they would move him all over in passing situations. I wonder if he's yet this year had an opportunity to rush without being in a three point stance. Seems to me that this is maybe the guy that the Bama defense should utilize. Either way, get him off of the left tackle.

 

[Russ Smith]

oops, i reversed Peppers and Rucker, Rucker plays RDE not LDE so my numbers were off.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Stout
The question shouldn't be what have I seen to make me not expect anything special...the question should be what have YOU seen to expect anything special? The very fact that I haven't seen anything speaks volumes. I'm not saying he won't turn out good. I'm just saying I haven't really seen anything from the kid yet. I mean, sure, there's Strahan, but I'd be willing to wager there are more Erik Flowers than Strahan's.

Your second point, on Pace not being a RDE: Then why did we draft him in the first round. IMO, you do NOT draft a non-pass rushing DE in the first round. Never. Ever. It's called reaching. If we seriously didn't believe he could be a solid pass rusher, we shouldn't have drafted him in the 1st.

You make a fair point about the coaching and the defense. The coaching has stunk, and the defense is nothing special. Of course, this is just an indictment of his being in the starting lineup, and therefore an indictment his skill level at this time. He wasn't ready to start-he wasn't even close to it. In truth, he wasn't ready to come on for pass-rushing duties-obviously. Now, will he develop under better coaching, or on a better defense? Hopefully, but like I said before, he's NOT showing flashes of better play (although he is a solid run-stuffer).

I also love how you say he's a run-stuffing LDE, then say he has the potential to get 10 sacks a season. What are you basing this on? A hope and a dream? Seriously, he's had one sack, and not much pressure. Don't use Strahan-such phenoms are the exception, not the rule. What have YOU seen that makes you believe this?

And seriously, if we didn't think he could be a pretty damn good, if not premier, RDE pass rusher, why the hell did we draft him in the mid-first round? Eh? That's a waste of a 1st rounder and reeeeeaaaaaaching!

And just about the only thing you can say when you compare Pace to the D-linemen drafted above him is...just goes to show you should have stayed pat and taken oh, say, Lefty? The smart pick?

Oh well. You want to believe Pace has potential. I have HOPE he has potential to be so good, but I've seen nothing to really show me anything.

The reason I can say this is because, unlike you, I HAVE watched him for 3 + years now including his college days at Wake Forest.

He is atheltic (regarded as best Athlete in ACC-Yes-better than Quan) he can play. Hell he played in the Seattle bowl with a broken leg and had a good game!

I am just saying that you are judging him way too harsh. All of a sudden he stinks but when I lay out the rest of the d-lineman drafted before him that doesnt count? Meaning they must all stink then huh?

Strahan isnt really the exception. Yes he is in terms of how many sacks he gets now, but not in terms of struggling first couple of years then being good. Hell, look at Shaun Ellis and Rucker...Both are very good now and have good sack numbers but didnt have those same numbers before.

You bring up the point of Reaching. Well honestly that akes no difference. Teams dont draft in a vacumm. They dont go "ok we will take so-and-so and #18" It doesnt work liek that. Had the Cards not picked Pace at that spot then what?

You can argue all day he is a reach but the way the draft played out, who should ahve the Cards taken after the 8 other D-Lineman were already gone? Something other than a DE-Then you would have been bitching about them not selecting one.

It isnt a reach if the draft plays out that way. Had everything gone the way, I guess, you envisioned it, then maybe he would have still been there come round 2-3-who knows, but it didint and the Cards drafted him with their second #1 and it was the right thing to do. I know for a fact that the Giants would have taken him with their #1 had he fallen.

I cant argue the Leftwich point. I liked him, Cards should ahve drafted him! oh well...

Sorry, but the factors of him playing on a lowsy defense, with no DT help, him being a rookie, and playing out of position makes me think he will do fine.

I think you are just caught up in either his Preseason performance-which all I can say to you is "it was preseason" or you expected something much grander from this kid.

Unlike you I am not going to label him a bust and had a "poor' season when he is playing in these elements!

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
He played both sides in college.
From the sounds of it they would move him all over in passing situations. I wonder if he's yet this year had an opportunity to rush without being in a three point stance. Seems to me that this is maybe the guy that the Bama defense should utilize. Either way, get him off of the left tackle.

I watched him throuought college and he rarely played both sides.

He is not a premier pass rusher. I am not saying he couldnt be (has the burst, athelticism etc) but he needs coached on how to rush the passer. I said it when the Cards drafted him and hell, even his college coach said the same thing.

Move him to the other side and watch him flourish!

 

[Stout]

LV, I'm NOT labelling him a bust yet...I'd be tempted to label BRYANT (Wendell) a bust, but we can't say that about a rookie yet. I'm just saying I haven't seen much at all, if anything, that says he'll have a breakout season next year. He might, might, but there is NOTHING that has shown that.

How he looks in college? Please. Burke once held the college sack record, and I'm sure he looked great in college. How he did and looked there only affects one thing: draft position. After that, it means less than nothing.

And you can continue to talk about those other d-linemen all you want. They mean nothing to the kid's play. Nothing. It's Pace, not those others. We should NOT, IMO, have traded down. That's my main point. Now, I'd have to look back at who was available, but I would NOT have reached for Pace where we took him. I'd have rather gone with what players we had than reach like that. It's like when we took Tommy Knight. I don't care HOW big of a hole you have at a position, you do NOT reach like that.

But hey, here's to hoping he DOES show somthing, ANYTHING, in the next few games. And here's to hoping he plays very well next year.

 

[8ndkorner]

Originally posted by RedStorm
Quietly is correct. He has been quiet.

However, what can you expect from a rookie. Hopefully with better coaching he will be able to get a push and command a double team. Otherwise, we will need to get someone else.

That's true. But he wasn't supposed to start when we got him. Now he has game time starter experience and that can help him progress more rapidly.



It hasn’t been the best season for Cardinals first-round picks Bryant Johnson and Calvin Pace, and while coach Dave McGinnis said the players were forced to play a lot immediately, he admitted the team probably needed more production out of them.

“More was expected of them because they had to play and more was put on them,” McGinnis said.

Pace, a defensive end who was the 18th pick overall, hasn’t had more than three tackles in a game since Oct. 26, the day he got his only sack of the season. He has just 10 tackles the past seven games despite starting every week.

Johnson, a wide receiver who was the 17th pick overall, had 14 catches after just three games. But a shoulder injury kept him out a game and set him back, and he has just 11 receptions in the eight games since coming back.


“Calvin would have been better served to be a situational rotation guy, but (starter) Kyle (Vanden Bosch) got hurt and that went by the wayside,” McGinnis said. “I’d love to be sitting here with Calvin with 10 to 12 sacks and Bryant with 45 to 50 receptions.”

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Stout
LV, I'm NOT labelling him a bust yet...I'd be tempted to label BRYANT (Wendell) a bust, but we can't say that about a rookie yet. I'm just saying I haven't seen much at all, if anything, that says he'll have a breakout season next year. He might, might, but there is NOTHING that has shown that.

How he looks in college? Please. Burke once held the college sack record, and I'm sure he looked great in college. How he did and looked there only affects one thing: draft position. After that, it means less than nothing.

And you can continue to talk about those other d-linemen all you want. They mean nothing to the kid's play. Nothing. It's Pace, not those others. We should NOT, IMO, have traded down. That's my main point. Now, I'd have to look back at who was available, but I would NOT have reached for Pace where we took him. I'd have rather gone with what players we had than reach like that. It's like when we took Tommy Knight. I don't care HOW big of a hole you have at a position, you do NOT reach like that.

But hey, here's to hoping he DOES show somthing, ANYTHING, in the next few games. And here's to hoping he plays very well next year.

We are getting off the topic here...

This isnt about were Pace was drafted. Your original comment was that he was having a "poor" season! And I disagree with that. My arguement is that given the circumstances (that I layed out before) and given his stats compared to the other d-lineman drafted AHEAD of him, that he is not having a "poor" seaosn like you say.

We can argue draft position, reaching, etc all day long and I would agree with you on the trade down (I too Liked Leftwich) but given how the draft played out and how the run on d-lineman were unfolding, Pace , to me, was the right pick @ #18.

To say he has done nothing this year is just not true and was pointed out by showing the stats of the other d-lineman. The reason I am showing that to you is to put in perspective the production of the other d-lineman the Cards might have taken had it played out that well. (Keep in mind ALL of them play on a d-line that has much better talent than the Cards)

I am not sure what you need to see from Pace...sacks? more tackles? more QB pressures....how are you judging him? And if he is having a "poor" season that every other D-lienman taken in the last 5 years in the first round (outside, Kearse, Rice, and Freeney) are just as poor, because there numbers were similiar!

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[JeffGollin]

Lets take alook at the other D-Lineman drafted before him shall we:

Dewayne Robertson #4 38 TACKLES 2 SACKS
Jonathan Sullivan #6 27 TACKLES 1 SACK
Keven Williams #9 41 TACKLES 8 SACKS
Jimmy Kennedy #12 1 TACKLE 0 SACKS
Ty Warren #13 18 TACKLES 1 SACK
Michael Haynes #14 17 TACKLES 2 SACKS
Jerome McDougal #15 4 TACKLES 0 SACKS
Calvin Pace #17 29 TACKLES 1 SACK

Do you happen to have Suggs' statistics? I realize he usually plays OLB, but I'm just curious.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Lets take alook at the other D-Lineman drafted before him shall we:

Dewayne Robertson #4 38 TACKLES 2 SACKS
Jonathan Sullivan #6 27 TACKLES 1 SACK
Keven Williams #9 41 TACKLES 8 SACKS
Jimmy Kennedy #12 1 TACKLE 0 SACKS
Ty Warren #13 18 TACKLES 1 SACK
Michael Haynes #14 17 TACKLES 2 SACKS
Jerome McDougal #15 4 TACKLES 0 SACKS
Calvin Pace #17 29 TACKLES 1 SACK

Do you happen to have Suggs' statistics? I realize he usually plays OLB, but I'm just curious.

Suggs: 19 TACKLES 10 SACKS 1 INT 4 FF

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Lets take alook at the other D-Lineman drafted before him shall we:

Dewayne Robertson #4 38 TACKLES 2 SACKS
Jonathan Sullivan #6 27 TACKLES 1 SACK
Keven Williams #9 41 TACKLES 8 SACKS
Jimmy Kennedy #12 1 TACKLE 0 SACKS
Ty Warren #13 18 TACKLES 1 SACK
Michael Haynes #14 17 TACKLES 2 SACKS
Jerome McDougal #15 4 TACKLES 0 SACKS
Calvin Pace #17 29 TACKLES 1 SACK

Do you happen to have Suggs' statistics? I realize he usually plays OLB, but I'm just curious.

Suggs has 15 tackles 4 assists and 10 sacks. So 10 of his 15 tackles are sacks.

That's from NFL.com, tackle stats are HIGHLY unreliable unless they're all from the same source Tyler Brayton for example who was picked after all these guys is listed as having 54 tackles for the Raiders, because the Raiders inflate tackle stats more than some teams and apparently NFL.com uses team stats during the season.

Pace's 29 includes tackles and assists combined by the way, under that format Suggs has 19 tackles.

 

[D-Dogg]

I have only two things to say.

Shut-down corners help average defensive lineman more than great defensive lineman help average corners. You can gameplan for the blitz, but great corners create more time for lineman to exploit their opponents.



Pace had a good year, and his run defense is excellent. I think he will be a solid end for this team for a long time to come. Give me two really fine corners back there, and Pace will get double digit sacks every year.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by nidan
I'll have a some observations in a couple of weeks

I look forward to that. You have been very quiet lately.

From what I've seen, and points a lot of people refer to, I have the sneaking suspicion that the coaching (or lack thereof) may be a very relevant key to some of his pass rush "shortcomings" so far.

He seems to have all the tools....just not some of the know-how or technique, in that respect.

Can anyone ever remember Joe Greene helping develop a good pass rusher?

 

[Tangodnzr]

...and please don't tell me "Simian Rice".

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
We are getting off the topic here...

This isnt about were Pace was drafted. Your original comment was that he was having a "poor" season! And I disagree with that. My arguement is that given the circumstances (that I layed out before) and given his stats compared to the other d-lineman drafted AHEAD of him, that he is not having a "poor" seaosn like you say.

We can argue draft position, reaching, etc all day long and I would agree with you on the trade down (I too Liked Leftwich) but given how the draft played out and how the run on d-lineman were unfolding, Pace , to me, was the right pick @ #18.

To say he has done nothing this year is just not true and was pointed out by showing the stats of the other d-lineman. The reason I am showing that to you is to put in perspective the production of the other d-lineman the Cards might have taken had it played out that well. (Keep in mind ALL of them play on a d-line that has much better talent than the Cards)

I am not sure what you need to see from Pace...sacks? more tackles? more QB pressures....how are you judging him? And if he is having a "poor" season that every other D-lienman taken in the last 5 years in the first round (outside, Kearse, Rice, and Freeney) are just as poor, because there numbers were similiar!

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

1-Pace IS having a poor season. You say 'to say he has done nothing this year is just not true and was pointed out by showing the stats of the other d-linemen'. I don't care if the other d-linemen drafted before him are stinking up the joint too. It doesn't matter. So they're ALL struggling-my point is, Pace hasn't shown much at all this year, stats-wise or otherwise. He can help stop the run. Great. But we need a pass rush. He hasn't been able to do that. At all, really.

2-It IS about where he was drafted, because I would not have drafted him there. It seems you're going on the assumption we absolutely HAD to draft a DE there. We didn't. Oh, we needed one very badly, but not badly enough to reach like that.

3-Granted, first year DE don't show great stats in their rookie campaigns very often. Thing is, they often show flashes of really great moves (when they turn out to be solid DE). Pace has not shown those flashes.

I'm hoping he does better next year, but I'm not going to count on his and Johnson's development as DEs, and a KVB comeback as our pass rushing source next season. We need to add a pass rush, still, IMO.

 

[Northern Card]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
...and please don't tell me "Simian Rice".

Tango... is this a typo... or do you actually want to make the "simian" (ape or monkey) reference?

 

[HookemCards]

My question is, if he would do better as a LDE going against the RT instead of the LT, then why have him there. If he is getting shut down at the RDE spot, put him at LDE. If the RDE is supposed to be the pass rush spot, and we aren't getting it from him, put him over at LDE and see if we can get more production from him than our current LDE. At this point we are getting very little from either side, but if LDE is his natural position, and he wasn't drafted to be your RDE don't play him there. Maybe if he had been playing his natural position now he'd have 4 or 5 sacks. I'm sure we can find someone on our roster to generate 27 tackles and 1 sack from the right side.

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by HookemCards
My question is, if he would do better as a LDE going against the RT instead of the LT, then why have him there. If he is getting shut down at the RDE spot, put him at LDE. If the RDE is supposed to be the pass rush spot, and we aren't getting it from him, put him over at LDE and see if we can get more production from him than our current LDE. At this point we are getting very little from either side, but if LDE is his natural position, and he wasn't drafted to be your RDE don't play him there. Maybe if he had been playing his natural position now he'd have 4 or 5 sacks. I'm sure we can find someone on our roster to generate 27 tackles and 1 sack from the right side.

To me, this says alot about coaching and making good decisions.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by HookemCards
I'm sure we can find someone on our roster to generate 27 tackles and 1 sack from the right side.

I'd like to see what Dennis Johnson can do over there at RDE.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by Northern Card
Tango... is this a typo... or do you actually want to make the "simian" (ape or monkey) reference?

Only the shadow knows.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Jimmy Kennedy #12 1 TACKLE 0 SACKS



....Well so much for my choice of whom I would have like to see the Cards pick first last year.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Jimmy Kennedy #12 1 TACKLE 0 SACKS



....Well so much for my choice of whom I would have like to see the Cards pick first last year.

Yeah, I know. *sniff sniff* My poor Penn State boy, Jimmy Kennedy! I was hoping he'd do well but, sadly, I was glad we didn't pick him.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Stout
1-Pace IS having a poor season. You say 'to say he has done nothing this year is just not true and was pointed out by showing the stats of the other d-linemen'. I don't care if the other d-linemen drafted before him are stinking up the joint too. It doesn't matter. So they're ALL struggling-my point is, Pace hasn't shown much at all this year, stats-wise or otherwise. He can help stop the run. Great. But we need a pass rush. He hasn't been able to do that. At all, really.

2-It IS about where he was drafted, because I would not have drafted him there. It seems you're going on the assumption we absolutely HAD to draft a DE there. We didn't. Oh, we needed one very badly, but not badly enough to reach like that.

I'll take issue with 1 and 2

LV is right to an extent on #1 it is VERY relevant to compare Pace to other rookie DL's because that was our options. We didn't choose Pace over a veteran DE, they all rejected us, or we felt they weren't good enough to sign. In other words Pace isn't keeping Vonnie Holliday or Strahan on the bench, he's keeping Wakefield or Johnson on the bench. So whatever rookie we drafted there, he'd be playing or sitting behind Wakefield and Johnson.

on #2, who would you have drafted? I understand you didn't want to move down, I agree, stay pat and take leftwich, right now we'd be focussing on do we take Roy, Vince, Sean or possibly move down. But given we DID trade down, and you say Pace is a reach at 18, WHO SHOULD WE HAVE DRAFTED?