Calvin Pace is quietly having a good season

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Stout
For the record? You were unclear and ambiguous. Pace has one sack. He doesn't have a lot of QB pressures. He doesn't have a ton of tackles. He hasn't shown many flashes of pass rushing ability. He played poorly. In what world is this not playing poorly?

Bottom line? He hasn't played good (not saying it's 'your' word), he hasn't played 'pretty well' (just to keep track, that was your phrase), nor has he played pretty good (because it's a logical conclustion). Everything he's done has added up to poor play, REGARDLESS of extenuating circumstances.

And, btw, I'm not the one that brought most of the other stuff up. My ideas on the subjects were in RESPONSE to excuses made for Pace. But good job trying to twist it to make me look bad. Better luck next time

I am not twisitng anything. You make your ownself look bad...Your the one putting words in my mouth. Making up things. Take a look back at your posts why dont ya?

Anyway, since you cant seem to grasp this concept of what I am talking about, I will spell it out for you. See if you can follow along sparky!

Circumstances:
1. Playing out of position
2. Playing on a bad defense
3. Forced into starting too soon.
4. Being a rookie
5. Going against the top 4 LT's in the first 6 games

I can go on but your boring me now.

Fact is, that given these CIRCUMSTANCES, and COMPARING them with the d-lineman taken PRIOR to Pace in the draft, he is playing pretty well. (read it as average if you want-NOT POOR, NOT GOOD)

How can you say everything he has done has added up to poor play when a few posts back you acknowledged he plays the run well? Please take a moment to look up your own posts!

If you dont want to consider circumstances than hell why should we for any other player. KVB is having an awful year! (who gives a rats ass about his 2 blown out knees, hes playing poorly, hell, Willis MaGahee you brought up earlier-Now theres a bust. He is having a very poor year, Hell Mike Vick is atrocious isnt he?)

If that seems ridiculous then take heart because it is no more ridculous a statement than: " Everything he's done has added up to poor play, REGARDLESS of extenuating circumstances"

Amazing, simply amazing.....



edit: Lets just stop this because we are now digressing to talking about what the other person "said/didnt say" Lets just both hope he has 70 tackles and 12 sacks next year and Cards make the playoffs (<--talk about hope!!)

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
edit: Lets just stop this because we are now digressing to talking about what the other person "said/didnt say" Lets just both hope he has 70 tackles and 12 sacks next year and Cards make the playoffs (<--talk about hope!!)

That I think we can both agree with

Yes, I agree he has done all right playing the run, but his overall play has been pretty below the standard, IMO. Poor, in my eyes. Yes, there are extenuating circumstances, and so hopefully next year, if those circumstances are resolved, he can play better. I just don't think it excuses any of his own plays.

And come on, talking about hurt guys? Hell yeah they played poorly! Lol No, seriously though, it's not their faults, but they aren't contributing either.

I think we both got caught up with ourselves, our views, and our impressions of what the other was saying. Why don't we agree to disagree, have a pint, and talk about how we're damn well getting to the SB in the next few years?

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Stout
That I think we can both agree with

Yes, I agree he has done all right playing the run, but his overall play has been pretty below the standard, IMO. Poor, in my eyes. Yes, there are extenuating circumstances, and so hopefully next year, if those circumstances are resolved, he can play better. I just don't think it excuses any of his own plays.

And come on, talking about hurt guys? Hell yeah they played poorly! Lol No, seriously though, it's not their faults, but they aren't contributing either.

I think we both got caught up with ourselves, our views, and our impressions of what the other was saying. Why don't we agree to disagree, have a pint, and talk about how we're damn well getting to the SB in the next few years?

Couldnt agree more!!!

Good posts!

 

[Northern Card]

Originally posted by Stout
Just making a point...why do you act confused (confused smilie) when you're just being sarcastic?

You're right. Please accept the folowing smilie(s).

 

[RedStorm]

So Russ, what did Tom Knight ever give us as a CB? Absolutely crap, that's what. That's the problem with saying you 'absolutely have' to draft something. If it's not there and you reach, you'll probably get burned.

I agree with Stout on this thread.

We needed a DE to be our pass rusher. That was our need. However, due to mis-judgement, we moved down too far to get some to fill that role. We screwed ourselves. Now, since there was no DE/DT left to take that was worthy we decided to reach to get a DE instead of going a different direction. I think that tells us more about the decision making of this front office. When a mistake happens there is not enough sense to change directions and make lemonade out of the lemons.

Don't ask me who I would have taken. I never would have traded down so I would not have been in that situation. However, the bigger issue is when mistakes are made this group does not know how to make the best out of it.


My hope is that Pace turns out to be a great find. I hope new coaching will help him. In a way I feel sorry for him because we took him too early and he now has to live with those expectations of being a first rounder. Like I said, hopefully coaching will help him.

Finally, again, I am hoping we have learned from our mistakes. Graves has a year under his belt as VP and calling the shots. It should not happen again and if found in a similar situation where your plan backfires you have various data and plans to make the best out of it.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by RedStorm
I agree with Stout on this thread.

We needed a DE to be our pass rusher. That was our need. However, due to mis-judgement, we moved down too far to get some to fill that role. We screwed ourselves. Now, since there was no DE/DT left to take that was worthy we decided to reach to get a DE instead of going a different direction. I think that tells us more about the decision making of this front office. When a mistake happens there is not enough sense to change directions and make lemonade out of the lemons.

Fair enough.

But let me explain my point, when we took pace, we took him to play LDE, that was announced that day, it was announced after, the intention was KVB at RDE and Pace would compete with Wakefield at LDE. EVen though I've shown that on a LOT of teams the LDE gets more sacks, most teams at least TRY to put their best pass rusher on the right side. So we really thought KVB, not Pace was our best pass rusher. He got hurt.

My contention is we did not draft Pace as "a DE to be our pass rusher", we drafted Pace as the best DE/DT on the board when we picked at 18, with "in our opinion" no other CLEARLY better player sitting there. Obviously Boldin was better, obviously Domanick Davis was better, I think Hamlin is, Tinoisamoa is. But clearly we didn't need a RB, LB was the strength of our defense, and we have Wilson and Jackson at Safety so Hamlin while he is a very good young safety wasn't a need.

We had horrible DE's, we started Wakefield and KVB last year, and remember at draft time Johnson was widely considered a bust on this board, remember the rumors he barely made the team. So taking Pace to strengthen the DE position did NOT mean we took him to be our sackmaster. The only guy in the draft who even remotely appeared to fill that role was Suggs, and we didn't like him. Had we not taken Pace we'd be starting Johnson and Wakefield this year, who knows who the backups would be.

I agree trading down was a mistake, the draft wasn't deep enough, but once you've done it you do HAVE to use your picks if you want to get players and to me the way Stout is defining reach, any player not named Boldin or Domanick Davis would have been a "reach".

Like I said to Stout if the whole point is, don't trade down, I agree that was the smart move, but once we did, I have a hard time saying we shouldn't have picked Pace. And IF we get a real RDE next year so Pace can move to the LDE, I suspect a lot of his detractors on the board will change their opinion.

 

[wierwolf]

Well put Russ!!! I totally agree.

 

[JeffGollin]

Caution Flag

In our zeal to express our frustration at passing up one impact player for two players who were less than impactful in their rookie seasons, l hope we'll be careful not to totally trash Calvin Pace, who did have some redeeming features (like playing better than recent RDE's against the run) and who may simply need another year to blossom.

Sometimes a young DE has to perfect additional techiques and add to his arsenal of moves in order to be effective. (Remember that Dennis Johnson didn't look all that hot in his rookie year either).

My point, I'd hate for Calvin to confuse fans' frustrations over (what I considered to be really bad) 1st round draft strategy with our giving up on him. He's our guy - It's in our interest that he eventually succeeds. Maybe it's time to stop looking back and cut the kid a bit of slack.

 

[Stout]

Re: Caution Flag

Originally posted by JeffGollin
In our zeal to express our frustration at passing up one impact player for two players who were less than impactful in their rookie seasons, l hope we'll be careful not to totally trash Calvin Pace, who did have some redeeming features (like playing better than recent RDE's against the run) and who may simply need another year to blossom.

Sometimes a young DE has to perfect additional techiques and add to his arsenal of moves in order to be effective. (Remember that Dennis Johnson didn't look all that hot in his rookie year either).

My point, I'd hate for Calvin to confuse fans' frustrations over (what I considered to be really bad) 1st round draft strategy with our giving up on him. He's our guy - It's in our interest that he eventually succeeds. Maybe it's time to stop looking back and cut the kid a bit of slack.

I'll cut him slack in the offseason

But you're right, Jeff. All things aside, we'd be crazy to give up on him already, and we damn well better hope he succeeds in the future for us.

 

[earthsci]

Re: Caution Flag

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Maybe it's time to stop looking back and cut the kid a bit of slack.

Freakin' AMEN!

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Ok, I wasnt gonna do this (and drag this thread out any longer) but I have to.

1. First how many new faces are starting on this Cardinals defenses? Answer 2: Dex Jax and Calvin Pace.

2. Did they change DC this year from last year? NO

3. Did they change defensive schemes this year from last year? Well kinda sorta. They say they did but we still see that 3 man front and passive play calling. Regardless, its pretty much been universal on this board that McGinnis gameplanning (x and o's) isnt his strong suit!

4. So what would explain the rise in the team's run defense last year from 30th in the NFL to 14th? From 380 yards given up a game to 340? From 134 ypg in 2002 to 114? Could the answer be Calvin Pace ?

Seriously I think his addition on this line has helped tremedously against the run. No he isnt the sack rush specialist some people thought he might be, but clearly he is a reason why this d-line is playing better against the run!

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Could Be

4. So what would explain the rise in the team's run defense last year from 30th in the NFL to 14th? From 380 yards given up a game to 340? From 134 ypg in 2002 to 114? Could the answer be Calvin Pace ?


Could also be hard work and the improvement of afore mentioned people like DJ.

It also might be that since they were underhyped (is that a word?) that they put forth the effort necessary for minimal success.

I'm sick and tired of the OL being overhyped every year and then they suck.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
4. So what would explain the rise in the team's run defense last year from 30th in the NFL to 14th? From 380 yards given up a game to 340? From 134 ypg in 2002 to 114? Could the answer be Calvin Pace ?

I don't know. I wonder if there are more than just that factor in the improved play against the run:

1. The fact that it's so easy to pass on us that team's don't really try to run, and instead run up the score through the air. A complement to this is that when the game's late and a blowout and teams DO decide to run, their hearts' aren't really in it, because the game's already very, very over and they're just killing clock. Remember: Jamal Lewis KILLED us when we played a running team that, at the time, couldn't pass.

2. The fact that Fred Wakefield hasn't been playing except as a "spell" player. This is the Godsend that I was asking for all offseason. A line is only as strong as its weakest link, and Fred Wakefield was one weak-freaking-link.

3. The absence of KVB. The guy tried hard, but didn't get it done, and in his hurry to get to the quarterback he really allowed himself to be played out of position. I have seen this happen oftern with Pace earlier in the season, as well, but he seems to have learned not to get driven up the field so hard.

4. Better linebackers. Levar Fisher may never develop into an All-Pro, but he's a solid, solid player. Raynoch was in a contract year, and seemed to have matured a little. Ronnie Mac is awful in coverage, but decent against the run.

5. More solid tackles. Wendell Bryant, I think, will be a solid tackle once good coaching comes in, but we've had fire hydrant-type players there this season who haven't collapsed the pocket much, but also haven't really been pushed around by opposing linemen, and that limits holes in the middle for runningbacks, which is where they have KILLED the Cardinals in the past.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK

4. So what would explain the rise in the team's run defense last year from 30th in the NFL to 14th? From 380 yards given up a game to 340? From 134 ypg in 2002 to 114? Could the answer be Calvin Pace ?

Seriously I think his addition on this line has helped tremedously against the run. No he isnt the sack rush specialist some people thought he might be, but clearly he is a reason why this d-line is playing better against the run!

Certainly ONE reason but not the only, as Kerouac said Fisher wasn't playing last year and is this. With Starks out all year our CB's are so bad teams can throw at will on us, so they may just be running less etc.

The day Starks went down I posted it might cost us 2-3 wins this year and people thought I was nuts because he struggled last year. The fact is even last year playing injured, Starks was our best cover man. The difference between him healthy this year and Barrett/Hill is huge. A lot of things are easier to do on defense if you have at least one CB who can cover. Starks is not Deion and never will be an elite shutdown CB, but he was a huge loss this year.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Hope

" More solid tackles. Wendell Bryant, I think, will be a solid tackle once good coaching comes in, but we've had fire hydrant-type players there this season who haven't collapsed the pocket much, but also haven't really been pushed around by opposing linemen, and that limits holes in the middle for runningbacks, which is where they have KILLED the Cardinals in the past."


__________________



I hope you're right.

Bryant has the potential.....not to be a good player but to be the biggest bust since Anthony Bell.

Let's keep Bell and Tanner and those fire hydrant types.....Bryant was SUPPOSED to be the best pass rushing DT in all of college football during his years.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I don't know. I wonder if there are more than just that factor in the improved play against the run:

1. The fact that it's so easy to pass on us that team's don't really try to run, and instead run up the score through the air. A complement to this is that when the game's late and a blowout and teams DO decide to run, their hearts' aren't really in it, because the game's already very, very over and they're just killing clock. Remember: Jamal Lewis KILLED us when we played a running team that, at the time, couldn't pass.

2. The fact that Fred Wakefield hasn't been playing except as a "spell" player. This is the Godsend that I was asking for all offseason. A line is only as strong as its weakest link, and Fred Wakefield was one weak-freaking-link.

3. The absence of KVB. The guy tried hard, but didn't get it done, and in his hurry to get to the quarterback he really allowed himself to be played out of position. I have seen this happen oftern with Pace earlier in the season, as well, but he seems to have learned not to get driven up the field so hard.

4. Better linebackers. Levar Fisher may never develop into an All-Pro, but he's a solid, solid player. Raynoch was in a contract year, and seemed to have matured a little. Ronnie Mac is awful in coverage, but decent against the run.

5. More solid tackles. Wendell Bryant, I think, will be a solid tackle once good coaching comes in, but we've had fire hydrant-type players there this season who haven't collapsed the pocket much, but also haven't really been pushed around by opposing linemen, and that limits holes in the middle for runningbacks, which is where they have KILLED the Cardinals in the past.

Very good points.

I just dont buy into the Bryant hype. I think he has been here 2 years and showed very little improvement. I am not saying he doesnt have the talent but he seems to take plays off and is lazy! I dont see that effort out of him I see with other guys IMO.

I tend to agree with the NFC West scout (in SI's 2003 pro football preview) who said Ruseell Davis and Wendall Bryant shouldnt be starting in the NFL.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Certainly ONE reason but not the only, as Kerouac said Fisher wasn't playing last year and is this. With Starks out all year our CB's are so bad teams can throw at will on us, so they may just be running less etc.

The day Starks went down I posted it might cost us 2-3 wins this year and people thought I was nuts because he struggled last year. The fact is even last year playing injured, Starks was our best cover man. The difference between him healthy this year and Barrett/Hill is huge. A lot of things are easier to do on defense if you have at least one CB who can cover. Starks is not Deion and never will be an elite shutdown CB, but he was a huge loss this year.

Of course more than just Pace. I didnt mean to attribute the turnaround simply on him, but I would say he is definatly part of it. Like K9 said the fact that Wakefields ISNT playing doesnt hurt either.

However, in looking up the stats from the last 2 years, seems teams have run on the Cards about the same in 2003 versus 2002:

2003
412 attempts (29.3 pg) and giving up 3.9 ypc (14 games)

and in 2002 490 attempts (30.6 pg) for 4.4 ypc (16 games)

Looks only less 18 carries total if they stay on this pace. The striking difference is the 4.4ypc versus 3.9 ypc...thats quite a difference.

Levar Fischer I kinda forgot. Although he isnt "new" he wasnt a starter last year. I agree he has helped as well.

 

[Northern Card]

definitely (known for certain)