Can we get off Robert Griffith's back now?

kerouac9

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His job is not to make plays, but to diagnose the offense's and be the last line of defense. He did that admirably yesterday against possibly the most intricate offensive design in the NFL.

He's going to make the team.

He's going to start.

And he's better than Aaron Francisco, who looked lost against below-average talent at the wide receiver position.
 

Mitch

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kerouac9 said:
His job is not to make plays, but to diagnose the offense's and be the last line of defense. He did that admirably yesterday against possibly the most intricate offensive design in the NFL.

He's going to make the team.

He's going to start.

And he's better than Aaron Francisco, who looked lost against below-average talent at the wide receiver position.

You mean me, K9. So why don't you just say it. I have been the one most critical of Griffith's play for two years...and I maintain, Griffith is NOT a FS. He's a SS. He played like a SS last night, forcing the run with aplomb. Forcing the run is his forte...providing deep help in coverage is not...he plays poor angles and he lacks requisite range.

Aaron Francisco, on the other hand, has the ability to get to the deep balls that Griffith doesn't. And Francisco has made more impressive tackles in two games than any other player on the roster. Go watch the tapes. The tapes don't lie. Watch the lick he put on FB Heath Evans last night, with the team down 27 points.

People wonder why Antrel Rolle gives so much cushion...when a CB doesn't trust the safety help, he tends to provide a little extra cushion.

The Cardinal defense can be picked apart underneath...which is why Pendergast needs to get the DBs playing more aggressive coverage underneath, which will put more pressure on the safeties to get to the deep balls...which is why, when one looks ahead at how the opponents are going to try to exploit the Cards' weaknesses...one has to be concerned about the free safety position and what it will mean to have someone good back there.

Your disdain for younger, less heralded players, is rearing its ugly head again.
 

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kerouac9 said:
His job is not to make plays, but to diagnose the offense's and be the last line of defense. He did that admirably yesterday against possibly the most intricate offensive design in the NFL.

He's going to make the team.

He's going to start.

And he's better than Aaron Francisco, who looked lost against below-average talent at the wide receiver position.


Griffith had a good game last night as he did have some big hits. I agree with Mitch though that he is not the answer for us at FS. I thought he was awful last year and cannot help at all with deep coverage support.

I did not think Francisco looked lost at all last night. Maybe I need to watch the tape again but I came away with a pretty good impression of him in this game. He was one of the few people on the second D that didn't look lost and was working his butt off all game.
 
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kerouac9

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What? Yes, Griffith forced the run, but he also made open field tackles after completed passes that stopped the receivers.

Francisco looked lost in coverage and was not the last line of defense that his position is supposed to be.

I think that Francisco is going to make the team, but so is Griffith, and he's got the starting job. Go ahead and cheer for your underdogs, but if this team is going to depend on them, they're going to go 6-10 again, because Michael Spurlock, Aaron Francisco, etc. are not ready to play in this league.

Yet.
 

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How can you guys tell how a DB is doing in coverage from watching a game on TV?

Since you can't see the DB's until the pass is thrown what are you focusing on?
 

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Duckjake said:
How can you guys tell how a DB is doing in coverage from watching a game on TV?

Since you can't see the DB's until the pass is thrown what are you focusing on?


As it pertains to a FS it really comes down to is are they there for support in deep coverage. That is evident on TV. What isn't known is what coverage the D is in. Were they supposed to cover a TE vs the LB covering etc. As it pertains to Griffith and I don't mean last nights game he really isn't fast enough to be effective in deep coverage support in my opinion.

My comments on last nights game refer to the very good tackling from both players.
 

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Griffith was sticking fools last night and so was A. Wilson. Man, they were laying the wood.
 
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kerouac9

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Duckjake said:
How can you guys tell how a DB is doing in coverage from watching a game on TV?

Since you can't see the DB's until the pass is thrown what are you focusing on?

That's a good question. For my part, I noted that Griffith was within hitting distance of the reciever basically right after he caught the ball and was on-screen somewhere whenever the tackle was made.

When I saw Aaron Francisco, he often wasn't within 10 yards of the receiver. Ironically, Francisco was so much deeper than the WR that a couple of times the receiver was able to run around him for long gains.

John Lynch is another former SS playing FS. He went to the Pro Bowl last season. For a pretty good defense.
 
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kerouac9

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Mitch said:
Your disdain for younger, less heralded players, is rearing its ugly head again.

I don't disdain younger, less heralded players, Mitch. I just don't like to see players who suck starting. There are plenty of veteran players that I don't think deserve starting jobs, either.
 

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kerouac9 said:
I don't disdain younger, less heralded players, Mitch. I just don't like to see players who suck starting. There are plenty of veteran players that I don't think deserve starting jobs, either.

Neither Griffith or Fancisco should be starting. But unfortunately thats all we have. Its definitely one position other than multiple OL postions that needs an upgrade.
 

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Shane H said:
Neither Griffith or Fancisco should be starting. But unfortunately thats all we have. Its definitely one position other than multiple OL postions that needs an upgrade.


maybe we could move Rolle to FS and get a cover CB?

ducking....
 

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kerouac9 said:
His job is not to make plays, but to diagnose the offense's and be the last line of defense. He did that admirably yesterday against possibly the most intricate offensive design in the NFL.

He's going to make the team.

He's going to start.

And he's better than Aaron Francisco, who looked lost against below-average talent at the wide receiver position.

In reality this team has four strong safeties in Wilson, Griffin, Francisco, and Shazor and a special teamer in Brewer. Griffin is far and away the best one at playing free safety IMO.

Is Rolle really supposed to be 12-15 yards off the receiver? It's almost like a prevent defense.
 

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It's off coverage. It's what Pendergast likes to use. But with the amount of CB blitzes you have to wonder what they were looking at out there?
 

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I copied and pasted this from another thread, Mitch hasn't replied yet to my Brewer comment:


Stop it with Griffith Mitch. He is a good player and team leader. Rosenthal stinks, I wouldn't give up a 7th for him. Who would replace Griffith, our 2nd year undrafted rookie Francisco. Why do you think he would be a good replacement, was it because the second team D got torched today with him at FS.

Then you go on to say Jack Brewer is better than most people think. Pure crap. He hasn't had a pick or a game tackle since his friggin' rookie year. Brewer is a ST guy who you fell in love with and months ago predicted would start.
 

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BigDavis75 said:
I copied and pasted this from another thread, Mitch hasn't replied yet to my Brewer comment:


Stop it with Griffith Mitch. He is a good player and team leader. Rosenthal stinks, I wouldn't give up a 7th for him. Who would replace Griffith, our 2nd year undrafted rookie Francisco. Why do you think he would be a good replacement, was it because the second team D got torched today with him at FS.

Then you go on to say Jack Brewer is better than most people think. Pure crap. He hasn't had a pick or a game tackle since his friggin' rookie year. Brewer is a ST guy who you fell in love with and months ago predicted would start.

Im not Mitch. But it is surely a stretch to call Griffith a "good player" used to be good would be more accurate. Now he is merely average. He is a liability at FS. He simply doesnt have the speed anymore. I will take him over Francisco at this point. But that isnt necessarily a good thing.
 

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BigDavis75 said:
I copied and pasted this from another thread, Mitch hasn't replied yet to my Brewer comment:


Stop it with Griffith Mitch. He is a good player and team leader. Rosenthal stinks, I wouldn't give up a 7th for him. Who would replace Griffith, our 2nd year undrafted rookie Francisco. Why do you think he would be a good replacement, was it because the second team D got torched today with him at FS.

Then you go on to say Jack Brewer is better than most people think. Pure crap. He hasn't had a pick or a game tackle since his friggin' rookie year. Brewer is a ST guy who you fell in love with and months ago predicted would start.

For two games Aaron Francisco has been the best tackler in the secondary. Watch the game tapes. In game one, he broke up two deep passes...Robert Griffith hasn't broken up any...and he didn't break up too many last year.

As I said on another post, the FS position is one of the real keys to how well the Cards' defense plays this year, because if the team can get reliable deep help from the FS, Clancy Pendergast can take a more aggressive approach in underneath coverage with Antrel Rolle and David Macklin.

As for Jack Brewer, he hasn't played much yet at FS because Aaron Francisco has been playing there quite a bit in the second halfs. When Brewer did play there briefly in the Pittsburgh game, he came up and put the wood on one receiver...so hard that his helmet came popping off. That impressed me. Why wouldn't it?

I like Brewer's speed and aggressiveness...and he is a very good open field tackler, which is one of the reasons why he excels on STs.

You seem to disagree. That's OK. Let's see what happens this week and the next.
 
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kerouac9

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Mitch said:
In game one, he broke up two deep passes...Robert Griffith hasn't broken up any...and he didn't break up too many last year.

Robert Griffith had 5 PDs last season to go along with 2 forced fumbles and an INT.

You have no idea whether or not Clancy Pendergast wants to play his corners more agressively in press coverage, but feels he "can't" because there isn't enough help over the top. To insist that Robert Griffith's presence in the defense somehow handcuffs the D-coordinator is ridiculous. The corners were playing off man when Aaron Francisco was on the field, as well.

What I remember from yesterday's game was that when Aaron Francisco was on the field, the boys in blue were scoring touchdowns. When Griffith was on the field, they were scoring field goals. Hard to argue with results.
 

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Mitch said:
For two games Aaron Francisco has been the best tackler in the secondary. Watch the game tapes. In game one, he broke up two deep passes...Robert Griffith hasn't broken up any...and he didn't break up too many last year.

As I said on another post, the FS position is one of the real keys to how well the Cards' defense plays this year, because if the team can get reliable deep help from the FS, Clancy Pendergast can take a more aggressive approach in underneath coverage with Antrel Rolle and David Macklin.

As for Jack Brewer, he hasn't played much yet at FS because Aaron Francisco has been playing there quite a bit in the second halfs. When Brewer did play there briefly in the Pittsburgh game, he came up and put the wood on one receiver...so hard that his helmet came popping off. That impressed me. Why wouldn't it?

I like Brewer's speed and aggressiveness...and he is a very good open field tackler, which is one of the reasons why he excels on STs.

You seem to disagree. That's OK. Let's see what happens this week and the next.

All of our starters in the secondary are better tacklers than Francisco, even though Macklin's form sucks he brings the ball carriers down. I wouldn't call what Francisco has been doing reliable deep coverage. He has been playing half the field since Shazor has been back more then Wilson. The pass breakups he made were not spectacular plays, they were nice though. Both you and Shane keep saying that Griffith has 0 speed, do you really think Francisco if that fast. Francisco is still pretty slow for a FS.

Brewer will never start for this team unless there is several injuries, to use his play on ST as justification for him being a good player is pretty weak. You say he excels because he can make open field tackles, so can all of our starters in the secondary, DG just doesn't put Starters on ST. My thing with you and Brewer was that you said he was better than a lot of people think and there was very little evidence of his play to substantiate that claim.
 

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Totally_Red said:
In reality this team has four strong safeties in Wilson,

Is Rolle really supposed to be 12-15 yards off the receiver? It's almost like a prevent defense.

i am convinced that the team played "right up to the line" of just going through the motions...that second half look like one team playing for their jobs and the other team playing like it was the last two minutes of a blow out....
 

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BigDavis75 said:
Both you and Shane keep saying that Griffith has 0 speed, do you really think Francisco if that fast. Francisco is still pretty slow for a FS.

I have a question regarding player speed:

Where do we get our relative value from?
Is it old combine data?
Football games?

Watching a player on TV (most especially in the secondary) it is very difficult to gauge his speed (unless there's something obvious like catching up to another player from behind).
 

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SuperSpck said:
I have a question regarding player speed:

Where do we get our relative value from?
Is it old combine data?
Football games?

Watching a player on TV (most especially in the secondary) it is very difficult to gauge his speed (unless there's something obvious like catching up to another player from behind).

40 Times are what I am looking at re: Francisco, someone posted them a while ago and they were around 4.65, I think some were even in the 4.7s. From what I have seen though Francisco "carries his pads well" meaning he doesn't play much slower than his timed runs (w/o pads) would indicate. A player that carrieshis pads incredibly well is Boldin and a player who doesn't is JJ Arrington, just for comparsion. Also, for DBs their three-drill time is pretty important.
 
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