Cardinals and Kolb Trying to Save Face

[BigRedRage]

holy giant posts batman. I fell asleep twice.

 

[kerouac9]

I have been against having Kolb here from the get-go, but I have to agree with Nick. We really don't know what we have in Kolb or how he will react to having had the concussions. As much as I wanted him cut after we were out of the Manning sweepstakes, I will take and wait-and-see approach. I want to see how he looks in camp and in the preseason. I think the coaches will do what's best for the team and, if that means sitting the million dollar man then so be it.



Yeah, I heard his comments. I thought they were pretty okay. Nothing to see here.

While I--predictably--disagree with Mitch's commentary about Kolb mailing in the season, I don't think that Kolb is a compete mystery to the Arizona Cardinals or their fans. The sad fact of the matter is that in eight starts we saw exactly one good half of play from Kevin Kolb--against a dysfunctional, injured Dallas Cowboys team, at home, in a game that we barely won because LSH made a great run after catch.

Kevin Kolb is 28 years old, and has been a pro for five NFL seasons. It's a little late for him to become a diamond in the rough that is going to add five points to his completion percentage and throw twice as many TDs as INTs and will be able to put the team on his shoulders when it matters most.

I think that the expectation is that we muddle through a much more difficult schedule in 2012 with an 8-8 record, trade up for a quarterback who has a chance to be good, and then have Whis on the hot seat going into 2013.

If Kolb had even had the ups and downs that we saw when Warner was playing under Green, it'd be something else. But Kolb was flat-out awful during his entire tenure this season, and his defenders have gone into hiding or revised their expectations down to, "Maybe with an offseason he can be as good as Matt Cassell. Look at the comparison!"

 

[Crazy Canuck]

While I--predictably--disagree with Mitch's commentary about Kolb mailing in the season, I don't think that Kolb is a compete mystery to the Arizona Cardinals or their fans. The sad fact of the matter is that in eight starts we saw exactly one good half of play from Kevin Kolb--against a dysfunctional, injured Dallas Cowboys team, at home, in a game that we barely won because LSH made a great run after catch.

Kevin Kolb is 28 years old, and has been a pro for five NFL seasons. It's a little late for him to become a diamond in the rough that is going to add five points to his completion percentage and throw twice as many TDs as INTs and will be able to put the team on his shoulders when it matters most.

I think that the expectation is that we muddle through a much more difficult schedule in 2012 with an 8-8 record, trade up for a quarterback who has a chance to be good, and then have Whis on the hot seat going into 2013.

If Kolb had even had the ups and downs that we saw when Warner was playing under Green, it'd be something else. But Kolb was flat-out awful during his entire tenure this season, and his defenders have gone into hiding or revised their expectations down to, "Maybe with an offseason he can be as good as Matt Cassell. Look at the comparison!"

Dallas was on a winning streak when they came to AZ, and I know of no significant players out of their lineup.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

holy giant posts batman. I fell asleep twice.

Agreed.

Cardsfan88 - Like most people, if I can't read it in a minute or less, I tend to lose interest. Nothing personal, just my "adult-onset ADD". Maybe keep it a little shorter?

 

[Mitch]

Agreed.

Cardsfan88 - Like most people, if I can't read it in a minute or less, I tend to lose interest. Nothing personal, just my "adult-onset ADD". Maybe keep it a little shorter?

Don't listen to this Cardsfan88---I and many others enjoy your posts and the thoroughness of them---if members wish then they can skim through yours or anyone else's---and that's fine. Why some of you make it your business to rank on someone or the lengths of their posts is beyond me. If you don't like the length, skip it and move on. Simple as that. No need to call someone out. No need at all.

 

[kerouac9]

Dallas was on a winning streak when they came to AZ, and I know of no significant players out of their lineup.

Dallas was on a four game winning streak against the Little Sisters of the Poor: Seattle, Buffalo, Washington, and Miami. I believe that three of those four teams are picking in the Top 10 of the NFL draft. Also, they'd played 3 of those 4 at home.

I'm pretty sure that Miles Austin didn't play in that game, and Mike Jenkins was limited.

 

[Buckybird]

IMO we need to stop blaming Kolb or whomever is our QB for the shabby play of the Oline & probably schemes designed by Grimm. It hasn't mattered who the QB has been, they've been punished over & over by whomever we've played by sacks & hits...even Warner was treated like a human punching bag!!!

FIX THE LINE WITH SOME TACKLES who can pass block 1st, run block 2nd!!! Forget DeCastro & take the best player on the board then add some smaller, atheletic OT's in later rounds & sign someone next year.Guards, guards, guards that's all the Cards add Now I'm off my soapbox

 

[WildBB]

In other words, we want to give Kolb one more shot given how much we sunk, fine, one more season. But we don't have to stunt Skelton and thus our teams chances with Skelton, who will be the starter at some point just because our front office wants so badly for Kolb not to have been a major mistake. That's not team success first. That's not commitment to winning. That's CYA and CYA doesn't help a team on the field it hurts it.

Your posts are too long for us short attention spanned ASFN'ers like me.

But if what your saying concisely adds up to this, then I agree.

 

[WildBB]

Dallas was on a four game winning streak against the Little Sisters of the Poor: Seattle, Buffalo, Washington, and Miami. I believe that three of those four teams are picking in the Top 10 of the NFL draft. Also, they'd played 3 of those 4 at home.

I'm pretty sure that Miles Austin didn't play in that game, and Mike Jenkins was limited.

Nice.

 

[CardsFan88]

I make them how I see fit to get the point across. That's the point. I don't do it to get a rise in myself or stroke my ego. If it's short, it's short. If it take length it takes length. I always seem to find more that I can explain better, and it's better to explain it then let the reader guess. Sometimes then it branches out and I feel I cheated myself and the reader if I don't explore it. Even then sometimes I miss something. But if fleshing something out leads to a bigger post, then it does.

I will get my point across #1, otherwise, why post? Nowhere will I ask anyone to read it all, unless they criticize it. In which case I might have already noted it but it wasn't read. It's my curse, I generally see big and small picture minutiae at once, and conveying that has always gotten on people's nerve from grade school to 33 years old and posting on message boards.

It's all good
Thanks for the support and constructive criticism.

 

[az1965]

According to Spotrac.com, Leinart got about $10 million over his four years with the Arizona Cardinals. Kolb has gotten nearly $20 million over two years, and STILL has fewer career starts than Leinart does.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I make them how I see fit to get the point across. That's the point. I don't do it to get a rise in myself or stroke my ego. If it's short, it's short. If it take length it takes length. I always seem to find more that I can explain better, and it's better to explain it then let the reader guess. Sometimes then it branches out and I feel I cheated myself and the reader if I don't explore it. Even then sometimes I miss something. But if fleshing something out leads to a bigger post, then it does.

I will get my point across #1, otherwise, why post? Nowhere will I ask anyone to read it all, unless they criticize it. In which case I might have already noted it but it wasn't read. It's my curse, I generally see big and small picture minutiae at once, and conveying that has always gotten on people's nerve from grade school to 33 years old and posting on message boards.

It's all good
Thanks for the support and constructive criticism.

I get it. Why use 100 words when a thousand will do.

(There's a Federal government job writing regulations on growing potatoes waiting for you. )

 

[JAB]

His two bonuses have been paid - 10 + 7
He rec'd 2 in salary for 2011.
He's collecting his work out bonus now

The only thing outstanding is his $1M salary in 2012

So.. Bottom line, the Cards can walk away today, but it will still have cost $19.5M. It's a pointless financial exercise and given that his signing bonus would be accelerated, likely hurt the CAP.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/arizona-cardinals/kevin-kolb/

He actually has three bonuses. His $10 million signing bonus, $7 million roster bonus and another $2 million bonus due in 2013. Plus his $10 million signing bonus has not been paid in full. It is guaranteed but his contract was written so that he would receive 2 million of it in each of the five years of his contract. So, what Mitch is suggesting I think is that the organization works out a injury settlement to buy out his contract to save the last three years of payments of his signing bonus and his 2 mill in 2013 which would equal $8 million. Personally I don't see that happening but if he's correct that Kolb may just want out maybe it's a possibility.

The part I take issue with is the Cardinals having any responsibility in playing him. All concussions are independently evaluated. If Kevin Kolb walks out on to that field it will be because he was cleared by independent doctors and under his own free will. I'm not saying it's smart I do believe he will get injured again but I also believe he will be 100% responsible for that risk that he doesn't have to take. As Mitch said he has plenty of money to walk away there's no pressure to play for the money.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/arizona-cardinals/kevin-kolb/

He actually has three bonuses. His $10 million signing bonus, $7 million roster bonus and another $2 million bonus due in 2013. Plus his $10 million signing bonus has not been paid in full. It is guaranteed but his contract was written so that he would receive 2 million of it in each of the five years of his contract. So, what Mitch is suggesting I think is that the organization works out a injury settlement to buy out his contract to save the last three years of payments of his signing bonus and his 2 mill in 2013 which would equal $8 million. Personally I don't see that happening but if he's correct that Kolb may just want out maybe it's a possibility.

The part I take issue with is the Cardinals having any responsibility in playing him. All concussions are independently evaluated. If Kevin Kolb walks out on to that field it will be because he was cleared by independent doctors and under his own free will. I'm not saying it's smart I do believe he will get injured again but I also believe he will be 100% responsible for that risk that he doesn't have to take. As Mitch said he has plenty of money to walk away there's no pressure to play for the money.

The $2M prorating of his signing bonus is simply a CAP related accounting device, as you understand. It's guaranteed and there is simply nothing to negotiate. It's owed. Period. It's inconceivable that he'd negotiate this down.

 

[JAB]

The $2M prorating of his signing bonus is simply a CAP related accounting device, as you understand. It's guaranteed and there is simply nothing to negotiate. It's owed. Period. It's inconceivable that he'd negotiate this down.

I could be mistaken but like Warner I was under the understanding they did not pay the signing bonus all upfront. In Warner's case it's why they did not have to ask for half of he's signing bonus back when he retired they had not paid it all yet. Our organization has a tendency at times to spread out their signing bonuses. I could be wrong maybe he did get it all in one payment. But it isn't unprecedented for our organization to spread signing bonuses out. Plus he has another $2 million bonus due next season. Like I said I don't see it happening but if the OP is right Kolb could make a settlement if he chose to. I don't believe he will but if the OP is correct in his assessment of how he feels I simply suggest maybe it's still a possibility.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I could be mistaken but like Warner I was under the understanding they did not pay the signing bonus all upfront. In Warner's case it's why they did not have to ask for half of he's signing bonus back when he retired they had not paid it all yet. Our organization has a tendency at times to spread out their signing bonuses. I could be wrong maybe he did get it all in one payment. But it isn't unprecedented for our organization to spread signing bonuses out. Plus he has another $2 million bonus due next season. Like I said I don't see it happening but if the OP is right Kolb could make a settlement if he chose to. I don't believe he will but if the OP is correct in his assessment of how he feels I simply suggest maybe it's still a possibility.

There was language in the Warner deal, if I remember correctly, that protected the Cards against the possibility of his retirement prior to completion of the agreement. We are talking here about an upfront signing bonus, distinct from any other bonuses that require he be a member of the team. Could Kolb say: "Keep the money"... (or part of...) Sure, he could... but, can't imagine why.

 

[kerouac9]

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/arizona-cardinals/kevin-kolb/

He actually has three bonuses. His $10 million signing bonus, $7 million roster bonus and another $2 million bonus due in 2013. Plus his $10 million signing bonus has not been paid in full. It is guaranteed but his contract was written so that he would receive 2 million of it in each of the five years of his contract. So, what Mitch is suggesting I think is that the organization works out a injury settlement to buy out his contract to save the last three years of payments of his signing bonus and his 2 mill in 2013 which would equal $8 million. Personally I don't see that happening but if he's correct that Kolb may just want out maybe it's a possibility.

The part I take issue with is the Cardinals having any responsibility in playing him. All concussions are independently evaluated. If Kevin Kolb walks out on to that field it will be because he was cleared by independent doctors and under his own free will. I'm not saying it's smart I do believe he will get injured again but I also believe he will be 100% responsible for that risk that he doesn't have to take. As Mitch said he has plenty of money to walk away there's no pressure to play for the money.

You're mis-reading Spotrac. As CC mentions, the signing bonus has been paid, $10 million last summer. The pro-ration of the signing bonus happens over five years, or however long he's with the team. The $7 million all went in this year's cap number. If he's released, the entire remaining value of the signing bonus gets pro-rated into that year.

If Kolb gets released next February or March, he'll cost $6 million in "dead" money against the cap. If he stays on the roster, he'd get $11 million in salary and bonus.

 

[JAB]

You're mis-reading Spotrac. As CC mentions, the signing bonus has been paid, $10 million last summer. The pro-ration of the signing bonus happens over five years, or however long he's with the team. The $7 million all went in this year's cap number. If he's released, the entire remaining value of the signing bonus gets pro-rated into that year.

If Kolb gets released next February or March, he'll cost $6 million in "dead" money against the cap. If he stays on the roster, he'd get $11 million in salary and bonus.

I'm not miss reading it i'm fully aware that signing bonuses are spread out in a "cap number" in equal parts over the length of a contract. I'm also aware if they cut him the remainder of the bonus goes against your cap the season, you cut said palyer.

I'm also aware that the Cardinals organization has written into contracts to have signing bonus paid in separate amounts instead of all up front. There is a lot in contracts that's not made known to us. Kurt Warner was an example of that. Most did not know until after he retired they split his signing bonus. Plus they didn't do it because they were afraid he was going to retire they were trying to spread out their cash and it proves it can be done. Our ownership who I support completely is not cash rich like some other owners and this is one way they can give a signing bonus without dumping a lot of cash in one season. Some players don't mind because the money is guaranteed.

I'm not 100% certain if they did that with Kolb or not. It's my understanding they may have but I'm not going to say it's a fact. I've also said I don't believe he would do it but if his contract was written that way and the OP is right in his opinion of how Kolb's viewing things it "could be" a possibility.

Part of something I wrote in a different thread I do get it.

Kolb has a cap hit of 13 mill in 2013 if we cut him it's down to 6 mill and after that he is off the books. Better for us if he lights it up but I don't see it.

Bradley has a cap hit of 6 mill in 2013 if we cut him it's down to 3 mill and he is off the books.

 

[CardLogic]

What one may wonder too is---was Kolb informing the Cardinals' trainers perhaps in the hope that the Cardinals would not pick up his bonus?

At first thought---one might think this is ludicrous.

How could he walk away from the money?

Well, consider this: Kevin Kolb, despite only starting 14 games in his 5 year career has now been paid (or assured of guaranteed money) well over $30,000,000. That's right: 30 million dollars.

When the Eagles traded Donovan McNabb, they signed Kolb to a two year $12.25M contract which all but $1.4M was front loaded---thus Kevin Kolb in 2010 started four games for the Eagles and made $10.85M.

The point is this: even if the Cardinals had decided to cut their ties with Kolb---Kevin Kolb would never have to work another day in his life---

Maybe, just maybe---Kolb was hoping the Cardinals would have given him a sooner chance at retirement---and who could blame Kolb if that is the case?

This premise is ludicrous, and not just at first thought. Why? Because, if he was of a mind to, Kolb can walk away from the game anytime he wishes. He didn't have to accept the $7 million bonus.

 

[BigRedRage]

Agreed.

Cardsfan88 - Like most people, if I can't read it in a minute or less, I tend to lose interest. Nothing personal, just my "adult-onset ADD". Maybe keep it a little shorter?

no dont shorten it, people probably enjoy it. I was being tounge and cheek. Just because I dont read it doesnt mean 40 others skim past it.

 

[BigRedRage]

start john skelton

 

[Jersey Girl]

While I--predictably--disagree with Mitch's commentary about Kolb mailing in the season, I don't think that Kolb is a compete mystery to the Arizona Cardinals or their fans. The sad fact of the matter is that in eight starts we saw exactly one good half of play from Kevin Kolb--against a dysfunctional, injured Dallas Cowboys team, at home, in a game that we barely won because LSH made a great run after catch.

Kevin Kolb is 28 years old, and has been a pro for five NFL seasons. It's a little late for him to become a diamond in the rough that is going to add five points to his completion percentage and throw twice as many TDs as INTs and will be able to put the team on his shoulders when it matters most.

I think that the expectation is that we muddle through a much more difficult schedule in 2012 with an 8-8 record, trade up for a quarterback who has a chance to be good, and then have Whis on the hot seat going into 2013.

If Kolb had even had the ups and downs that we saw when Warner was playing under Green, it'd be something else. But Kolb was flat-out awful during his entire tenure this season, and his defenders have gone into hiding or revised their expectations down to, "Maybe with an offseason he can be as good as Matt Cassell. Look at the comparison!"

I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt since we did not have a full training camp. I saw what he did (or, more accurately, didn't do) in Philly and didn't expect him to come here and light things up. I still don't. In all honesty, I was hoping that the Cardinals will just cut him rather than pay his bonus this year.

That said, I hope to see improvement from him now that he has had time to get to know the system and will have a full off-season with the team. I am hoping that will happen as opposed to him mailing it in or sucking as bad as last year.

 

[BigRedRage]

Jersey, he will do great at holding clipboards and helping skelton diagnose the plays once he hits the sideline after a touchdown. its all good.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm not miss reading it i'm fully aware that signing bonuses are spread out in a "cap number" in equal parts over the length of a contract. I'm also aware if they cut him the remainder of the bonus goes against your cap the season, you cut said palyer.

I'm also aware that the Cardinals organization has written into contracts to have signing bonus paid in separate amounts instead of all up front. There is a lot in contracts that's not made known to us. Kurt Warner was an example of that. Most did not know until after he retired they split his signing bonus. Plus they didn't do it because they were afraid he was going to retire they were trying to spread out their cash and it proves it can be done. Our ownership who I support completely is not cash rich like some other owners and this is one way they can give a signing bonus without dumping a lot of cash in one season. Some players don't mind because the money is guaranteed.

I'm not 100% certain if they did that with Kolb or not. It's my understanding they may have but I'm not going to say it's a fact. I've also said I don't believe he would do it but if his contract was written that way and the OP is right in his opinion of how Kolb's viewing things it "could be" a possibility.

Part of something I wrote in a different thread I do get it.

Joe can probably speak more authoritatively about this, but that's standard NFL language. The payout is automatic or on an interest-bearing annuity. The issue is that the teams--all teams--can ask for part of the signing bonus back if they so desire and the player voids the deal before it's expired.

Warner would've had to pay the Cards back some of that bonus money. Happens pretty frequently. The Falcons went after (successfully, I think) Vick's bonus on his $100 million+ deal after he went to the clink, and I think that Oakland tried the same thing (unsuccessfuly, IIRC) with JaMarcus Russell.

 

[Phrazbit]

The good news is we play the Eagles again, so at least there is one defense Kolb can pretend to read.