Cardinals' Off-Season Plan V. 3.0 Blockbuster Trade

[Dude]

Why would you want a rapist on the team? Also I agree with MasterPho. We finally get a pass rusher that we've always needed & you want to trade him away. Makes no sense.

We should have IMO gave up 3 1's for him when all that BS came out. As to the pass rusher did he sign a new deal? He's IMO on our team one more year at best.

 

[Stout]

Nah, we'd have to throw in a unicorn, and they'd have to give us all their property in Oz to balance that reasonable, believable trade LOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Brak]

I'm a big Palmer fan, but I actually like Mitch's plan. Big Ben clearly is frustrated with Pittsburgh. NFW he's going to retire - he'd have a ton of bonus money to pay back on top of giving up his salary - but he's clearly sending a message that things are FUBAR and I think the hint is that he wants out. We all know he'd love to play for BA again and vice-versa. IF (and it's a big if) Palmer decides to retire, then this all makes perfect sense. I think Chandler Jones has been a great addition, but not for the kind of money he's going to command. I'd rather find another complement to Markus Golden in the draft and move on.

 

[cardpa]

I'm still not convinced that Jones is worth the money. I agree with Mitch that Jones is very sporadic in his sacks. They come in bunches and they also seem to come against teams with questionable Olines. He just doesn't seem like the pass rusher you can depend on to get you that sack when you need it most at the most important time in a game. He's not a closer.

 

[Finito]

I'm a big Palmer fan, but I actually like Mitch's plan. Big Ben clearly is frustrated with Pittsburgh. NFW he's going to retire - he'd have a ton of bonus money to pay back on top of giving up his salary - but he's clearly sending a message that things are FUBAR and I think the hint is that he wants out. We all know he'd love to play for BA again and vice-versa. IF (and it's a big if) Palmer decides to retire, then this all makes perfect sense. I think Chandler Jones has been a great addition, but not for the kind of money he's going to command. I'd rather find another complement to Markus Golden in the draft and move on.

It's not the steelers it's his Body that he's talking about he's breaking down.

If pass rushers were so easy to find in the draft everyone would have them.

 

[wit3card]

Bad trade for card, young good OLB vs old often injured QB ...

I get it we need a QB, but we need to find one ourselfs, we need the guy that can play the next 10 years ourselfs ... not trying to fix something with the next bridge ...

I would say no.

 

[gimpy]

I agree ^^^I don't want others cast offs. We get them and they are always past their prime, it seems like to me.

 

[Stout]

Big Ben will retire as a Steeler, one way or another.

 

[NJCardFan]

Obviously in a heartbeat but Pitt isn't trading Ben. Mitch there's a better chance we trade for A-Brown. There's been some chatter on local Pittsburg radio they could move him.

Wouldn't that hinge on Martavis Bryant?

 

[NJCardFan]

I agree ^^^I don't want others cast offs. We get them and they are always past their prime, it seems like to me.

If we're being honest...

Kurt Warner was a castoff and took us to the Super Bow.

Carson Palmer was a castoff and led us to the most wins we've ever had over a 3 season period(34) and had us a game away from another Super Bowl.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

And the onslaught on the player going into this prime, with double digit sacks in 3 out of his 5 season continues.

 

[Mitch]

And the onslaught on the player going into this prime, with double digit sacks in 3 out of his 5 season continues.

This isn't an onslaught---it's a question of whether Jones is worth $16-17M a year. His overall performance the past five years has not made a thoroughly convincing case that he deserves to be paid as one of the elites at his position. Jones is very talented---but is he elite? At no point in his five years has he established himself as elite. Good, yes. Elite, no.

Could he become elite? Do the Cardinals gamble #75-80M on that?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Have you watched tape of Charles Harris of Missouri? He's got Markus Golden's motor and stronger explosion.

What is nagging at me is the fact that Chandler Jones in the 4 must win games down the stretch where the Cardinals went 1-3, had zero sacks and 2 QB pressures. He seemed maxed out on 8 sacks for the longest time. And during those games I kept watching him and it was like he was running at 3/4 speed. Finally, when pressed about his lack of production during that stretch he said to Josh Weinfuss of ESPN, that "yeah, I've got to play better."

Then when the team was eliminated he gets 3 sacks in the last two games.

This is EXACTLY what Patriots' fans complained about Jones. He disappears in big games and many of his sacks come in bunches during lop-sided or less meaningful games.

Is he talented? No question.

BUT---is he worth $16-17M a year, or even $15.4M for next year on an f-tag?

That's a salary for an elite pass rusher and thus far it would be very difficult to call Jones elite.

No it is not. Double digit sacks in 3 out of 5 years in his career.

Have you went down and listed how many sacks were in meaningful situations for Von Miller, Justin Houston, and all the other pass rushers in the league ?

Olivier Vernon got 8.5 sacks this year, got paid a lot of money. Don't remember his sacks and when they happened.

How did Mario Williams do this year ? Tamba Hali ?

The Cardinals had two pash rushers in the top 10 this year in sacks. I have no idea why on earth, on a team that relies on its defense, you would want to break that up.

What the Cardinals need is a sack master to close out games, the way Dwight Freeney did in 2015.

Jones was not that guy.

Freeney did that one time. ONE TIME.

Jones did it this year, and he took over both Seahawks games.............just do not know what more you want out of the guy.

Could he be that guy?

Possibly, yes. But to sign him to a 4 year $68M contract is a risky gamble on potential.

He could. 26, coming into his prime. I see him only getting better. No risk it, no biscuit as you like to quote.

I would say that, but I do even see the risk, or at least any more of a risk than any other signing.

Then you look at the draft and there are some edge rushers who look like they have just as much potential as Jones and possibly more.

Myles Garrett
Jonathan Allen
Derek Barnett
Charles Harris
Tim Williams
A.J. Watt
Carl Lawson
DeMarcus Walker

Any of those guys I would rather take a much less expensive gamble on and pair them with our best pass rusher, Markus Golden.

Less expensive gamble money wise. You are taking a much greater gamble with wins and loses by trying to replace a guy that averages 9.5 sacks a season, with a rookie.

Do we really have to list all the pass rushers that have busted out over the years ?

I think that one of the reasons why the Cardinals had a down year is having to pay Calais Campbell 1/10th of the salary cap. Imagine how many good players the Cardinals could have added using that $15.3M.

I think it is a mistake to turn around and now give $15.4M to Chandler Jones in a year where we need a big haul in free agency.

Hopefully Jones is willing to take a fair value contract which would be a win for both sides. But if he insists on elite money, the Cardinals will have a tough decision to make. A decision which likely gets postponed another year while Jones plays at $15.4M on the f-tag.

Never seen a championship won with cap space. You need players, and not every team has an elite QB that takes a pay cut for the sake of the team, like Brady does.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

This isn't an onslaught---it's a question of whether Jones is worth $16-17M a year. His overall performance the past five years has not made a thoroughly convincing case that he deserves to be paid as one of the elites at his position. Jones is very talented---but is he elite? At no point in his five years has he established himself as elite. Good, yes. Elite, no.

Could he become elite? Do the Cardinals gamble #75-80M on that?

Really. Every article Mitch. When it is mentioned in every post, every day from multiple posters, in multiple topics and posts.....that is an onslaught.

Don't really know why you are being defensive of it, since every article I see from you, you want to let the guy walk or trade him. If that is your position that is fine. I just do not agree, and think it would be a HUGE mistake.

26 years old, averages 9.5 sacks a year, he has definitely sacked the QB to end the game for the Cardinals, he has taken over games like against Seattle, the Cardinals lead the league in sacks, had two pass rushers in the top ten of the league in sacks.

Elite ? Do not know what more you want. Any other team this guy is elite, just not here at ASFN.

Yes, you sign the player who has earned that money, its not even a gamble, its just a good signing.

A gamble is thinking that a draftee comes in and does better than Chandler Jones. Most pass rushers bust out. That leaves you with Marcus Golden and........................................................................

Back to the team that people complained to the high heavens lacked a pass rush and cost them a super bowl.

You can have your opinion on this Mitch, but if I do not agree, I will have mine.

Keep writing but I am not going to agree with you on Chandler Jones and really think that it would be one of the worst moves in Cardinals history to let him walk.

 

[Mitch]

Rugby---

I love your passion for Jones and I share in much of it.

I never said I want to let Chandler Jones walk.

In this fantasy thread, I thought he was the one player the Steelers could want if they were ever going to trade Big Ben to Arizona. Man, I would just love to see what Big Ben would do in AZ with BA as coach.

You say---"on any other team" Jones is elite---clearly the Patriots didn't feel that way. For the same reasons that we saw this year. To this point he's more of a garbage time sacker than a crunch time sacker.

When you look at his pass rush, he's mostly an angle and leverage rusher---his long arms are a huge asset---and he's got a fairly good swim move. When tackles get the good first punch in, he often decelerates and they can tie him up. He lacks ideal speed off the ball and an array of counter moves. Problem is he stands up off the snap---as we saw the Patriots knew that and cut blocked him to perfection. Jone may be at his best on twist and tex stunts.

I think with the Cardinals, he would actually be more disruptive and consistent (from time to time) in Calais Campbell's spot. I know the Pats liked to use him as an inside rusher a few snaps a game.

Don't get me wrong. I like the player. I am just feeling leery about the price tag.

If the Cardinals are going to pay $16-17M a year, I would rather they give that kind of money to Melvin Ingram (better conversion of power to speed---and much better edge stopper), and try to trade Jones off his f-tag.

Most likely, you and I and other will be continuing this conversation for another year because it looks like Jones will play on the $15.2M f-tag this year.

 

[oaken1]

do not want any ben....

before the contract expires on jones it will look like a bargain

defense is a team effort and jones has only had a single year in the system... if...(IF)... chemdippy plays anywhere close to his potential Jones numbers will go up..

some of the concerns can be mitigated with contract structure...give him like a 7 year deal with increasing roster bonuses each year...the numbers could look insanely high without the team being at serious risk for loss if he does not pan out

 

[az jam]

do not want any ben....

before the contract expires on jones it will look like a bargain

defense is a team effort and jones has only had a single year in the system... if...(IF)... chemdippy plays anywhere close to his potential Jones numbers will go up..

some of the concerns can be mitigated with contract structure...give him like a 7 year deal with increasing roster bonuses each year...the numbers could look insanely high without the team being at serious risk for loss if he does not pan out

He will want a lot of guaranteed money and get it.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

You say---"on any other team" Jones is elite---clearly the Patriots didn't feel that way. For the same reasons that we saw this year. To this point he's more of a garbage time sacker than a crunch time sacker.

Who is a "crunch time sacker" ?

And by that they would have to have more game ending sacks then Chandler Jones last season, that would be one, and have more than two games they completely dominated in.

So, I would like to know who is on that list.

The Patriots who have pass rushers to spare and afford to let Chandler Jones go, not to mention the Patriots win with their offense. Dare I say the Patriots made a mistake. I know blasphemy.

Don't get me wrong. I like the player. I am just feeling leery about the price tag.

Pass rushers cost money. Guys with half his sack total are getting paid massive contracts.

If the Cardinals are going to pay $16-17M a year, I would rather they give that kind of money to Melvin Ingram (better conversion of power to speed---and much better edge stopper), and try to trade Jones off his f-tag.

Both Melvin Ingram and Chandler Jones have been in the league for 5 years. One player has double digit sacks in 3 out of his 5 years, and the other player has double digit sacks 1 out of 5 season.

You think Ingram is going to be less money ? Fine. Is that saving going to compensate for the lack of production ?

1 year ago at this time, this board was awash with how the pass rush on this team needs to be improved. The goal gets achieved and a year later we want to get rid of the pass rush that lead the league ?

Sorry, just do not get that logic.

 

[oaken1]

He will want a lot of guaranteed money and get it.

roster bonuses are guaranteed money as long as he is on the roster on march 1st....by combining roster bonuses with signing bonus we can mitigate the risk, but offer Jones the opportunity to get serious paid as long as he plays well enough to stay on the team

 

[az jam]

roster bonuses are guaranteed money as long as he is on the roster on march 1st....by combining roster bonuses with signing bonus we can mitigate the risk, but offer Jones the opportunity to get serious paid as long as he plays well enough to stay on the team

I agree, bottom line for me is pay him and keep him.

 

[WisconsinCard]

He will want a lot of guaranteed money and get it.

What do you mean by a lot? He won't get a lot of security or guaranteed money with one year F-tag money. So he may decide to give up a bit for more security. Guaranteed 15 mil for one year (nothing after that) vs guaranteed 45 mil over 5 years (even if you gave him 20 to 25 mil of it in a signing bonus? He gets more money up front and the cards keep his cap hit lower.

 

[john h]

This of course assumes that A.) Palmer retires based on his own decision, B.) BA convinces Palmer to retire.
Both of which I believe are quite unlikely...

I see Fitz and Palmer coming back. Both are still quality players. What I do not see is a young quality QB in our future. We need to get lucky. If I am not mistaken we passed on Big Ben when he was drafted. A mistake worse than Leinhart,

 

[JeffGollin]

For years, we've been on the prowl for a guaranteed sack artist. We've finally got him and now we want to trade him. And for what? A seasoned QB who may be slightly better than the one we've got.

Risk Factors: Ben's age and Carson's age/durability. Not enough spread between the two to justify trading away our sackmeister.

I don't do that trade.

 

[DVontel]

I never heard the term "crunch-time sacker". Who is on that list?

 

[Chopper0080]

If I could trade four years of Chandler Jones for four years of Ben Roethlisberger, I would. In a second. That being said, Pittsburgh would never trade him for that.

No way the Steelers deal him for less than multiple 1sts and players as well.