Cardinals' Off-Season Preview With The Lockout Looming

[conraddobler]

You will too. Look how long you've supported the Cardinals.

LOL,


This!

At the end of the day I understand why a lot of people don't want to talk about the owners.

You're stuck, it's not like you can use this as an excuse to ditch the team and get another one, I've tried, it's futile.

I have no input on the owners and so it just ends up being what it is, there's no point once you're stuck on a team.

You're a hostage, best you can do is hope your hostage takers will drop you a few candy bars or spring for some decent cable while you ride it out.

 

[40yearfan]

I'm not too worried about the Bidwill's financial picture. They have an asset worth 3/4 of a billion dollars with a guaranteed gross income from TV of $135 million (2009). Plus now they have naming rights and luxury box income.

A good article on the Bears franchise that is sort of similar to the Cards in that it is still owned by the same family and is they do not have another business to provide income.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2010/0...-chicago-football-money-midgets-midway_3.html

An asset worth 3/4 of a billion dollars and you think making $30 million a year is too much? Would you settle for that with that kind of investment?

 

[40yearfan]

A couple of things.

Don't defend someone as a good owner just because they are a "good" person.

Let's get this straight right now, from all I've heard, minus the normal disfunctional stuff you hear about from time to time, Mr. B seems to me to be a good guy.

His business sense IMO is terrible, atrocious, abysmal.

Please don't lecture anyone on what it takes to survive in a business that is based on a monopoly and revenue sharing model that makes it nearly impossible to go out of business from being bad.

The salary cap is not really the type of cap that forces a team to spend, in reality you can scrimp on things, staff, coaches, signing bonuses and simply get good at timing things and appear to be competeing when in reality you're not.

It dosen't matter what we think is enough, it's about what is normal in the NFL.

I suspect and do not know for sure but I strongly suspect that Mitch is right, we'll never see open books, because if we did then we could easily compare one team to the next year after year.

If we did this and I could see the team spending right up to what they could then I'd shut up about this forever and just assume that it's not cheapness but just woeful decision making that's made us this bad or possibly lack of resources in the first place.

With a new stadium and with everything that's going on you really need to connect the dots, as unpleasant as it might be, it's the only way to pressure real change.

The owner does not have to spend all they can, but they do owe you the fan a real effort, year after year and you the fan need to be able to evaluate that.

We can already do this, if you just look at this team's track record it's terrible, even with the short run of success we got out of lately.

You don't need to see the books to know we suck, you only need to see them to know possibly more about why.

C'mon Conrad. The Cardinals are in the top third of the league when it comes to player salaries. How much do they need to spend to satisfy you?

Look at Washington. They are the top spending team in the NFL and their record is no better than the Cardinals. It isn't how much money you spend, but where you spend it. To berate the Cardinals for not spending ENOUGH money is ludicrous. Now if you want to berate them for how they have spent it, you might have more of a case. But remember. You have the advantage of hindsight.

Mistakes have been made, but I don't believe they were made as a result of penny pinching. Just looking at what has been spent on players salaries the last few years should make that readily apparent.

 

[conraddobler]

C'mon Conrad. The Cardinals are in the top third of the league when it comes to player salaries. How much do they need to spend to satisfy you?

Look at Washington. They are the top spending team in the NFL and their record is no better than the Cardinals. It isn't how much money you spend, but where you spend it. To berate the Cardinals for not spending ENOUGH money is ludicrous. Now if you want to berate them for how they have spent it, you might have more of a case. But remember. You have the advantage of hindsight.

Mistakes have been made, but I don't believe they were made as a result of penny pinching. Just looking at what has been spent on players salaries the last few years should make that readily apparent.

No you are not getting away with this.

Let's average it out over the last 4 years plus next year and see where we rank, also you need to use the actual outgo, bonuses and all plus add in the coaching salaries and now we're talking.

You show me where we make it out of the bottom of third of the NFL in those terms and then and I'll start to believe you.

I want to see the books, over the last 5 current years, meaining next year counts too and then I want to compare it to other teams.

If after that we're in the top third then you win, if we're in the bottom third I win.

 

[Duckjake]

An asset worth 3/4 of a billion dollars and you think making $30 million a year is too much? Would you settle for that with that kind of investment?

40, Bill Bidwill got the team for FREE. So I'd say $30 million is a very healthy return.

Don't forget the appreciation in value. Some $250 million or so since the stadium was opened? Now that's a nice return of $50 million a year.

To answer your question: In today's market I'd take a 4% return plus a 10% annual appreciation in value of the asset I got for free and getting to be an NFL owner. The perks that go with that have to be fantastic. Probably worth more than the income.

Looks like the team is worth almost a Billion dollars.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/football-valuations-10_Arizona-Cardinals_309893.html

 

[Sandan]

Thats a creative way to look at it Duck, I can pretty much guarantee that nobody owning a business would look at it that way.

How you got it makes no difference

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

An asset worth 3/4 of a billion dollars and you think making $30 million a year is too much? Would you settle for that with that kind of investment?

Yes...

 

[Duckjake]

Thats a creative way to look at it Duck, I can pretty much guarantee that nobody owning a business would look at it that way.

How you got it makes no difference

Yes it does. Business people look for return on investment. Since the investment is about $800,000 adjusted for inflation I'd say $30 million is a fairly good rate of return. Especially when you consider that $30 million number is probably after things like Michael and Bill's salaries, company cars, depreciation etc.

I guarantee you that if you had purchased an apartment complex worth $23 million for $23,000 you would look at your income from that property differently than if you had paid $23 million for it. Sure you want as much profit as possible but you wouldn't despair because you only made $750,000 instead of $2.3 million annually.

If $30 million plus 10% annual increase in asset value was such a poor rate of return wouldn't a prudent businessman sell, take what was left after taxes, and invest it somewhere else? But you don't see the Bidwills looking for a buyer do you?

 

[THESMEL]

Business

You sound like the players, really smart spending other peoples money.Bills only been at it exclusively 41 years since 1970. He was only a hire for the prior 2 decades. When was it free, before that step mom ran it after his Dad passed. He had to buy Stormy's share, now If you think it was easy to survive, Chicago and St Louis.

Yes It's about 1 billion I said that but was probably to long winded. and yes it has tripled or quadrupled since the stadium was built and we went to the SB. But 10% growth a year going forward is not reasonable, If it is-it is 2 steps forward one step back. Like this year, We lost value this year, how much, only Vegas knows for sure.

I know 275$ Black Matt Leinart Jerseys are pretty cheap, Who stepped up in merchandise sales this year, Not Beanie, or Porter, Hell all of them went backwards. That is why I would like to see a 50/50 CBA agreement. so when they aact out or get cut It hurts the players, their peers and the Owners equally. when they do well together they get paid together. If the owner acts a fool, I never seen Billy flipping off a fan or hurting the game.

Them Cardinal Championship Players that stepped up from the ancient past, you remember the 1947-48 Chicago Cardinals players when we went to the NFC Championship game. They showed more than admiration, respect and pride in Little Billy Bidwill, They loved him. That says alot right there.

It had been over 50 years! Lets see last time I seen that happen for other Owners. HMMM NEVER. Closest I can think of is Bradshaw and Steelers from the 70's for the Roonies. There is not doubt What Bill Bidwill will do next, He's already did before repeatedly. He Will protect the NFL first- fans 2nd- players 3rd.

Fortitude Bill has. Prudence Bill has. Charity Bill has. Just because they are not the sexiest of virtues, doesn't mean they are less important.

Bill could throw Yankee's Money at the Cards, and knows for a fact He will be more likely to get a Haynesworth than a Kurt Warner. He has no doubts, He's had a front row watching them come. suffer and die in this Your NFL!

40, Bill Bidwill got the team for FREE. So I'd say $30 million is a very healthy return.

Don't forget the appreciation in value. Some $250 million or so since the stadium was opened? Now that's a nice return of $50 million a year.

To answer your question: In today's market I'd take a 4% return plus a 10% annual appreciation in value of the asset I got for free and getting to be an NFL owner. The perks that go with that have to be fantastic. Probably worth more than the income.

Looks like the team is worth almost a Billion dollars.

Bill could throw Yankee's Money at the Cards, and knows for a fact He will be more likely to get a Haynesworth than a Kurt Warner. He has no doubts, He's had a front row watching them come. suffer and die in this Your NFL!

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/football-valuations-10_Arizona-Cardinals_309893.html

 

[Mulli]

Bidwill also has a beyond terrible winning percentage. In many ways, he is an example of what NOT to do as an NFL owner.

 

[Cardiac]

Bidwill also has a beyond terrible winning percentage. In many ways, he is an example of what NOT to do as an NFL owner.

Okay, I just gotta ask. In what ways is he an example as what to do as an NFL owner.

 

[Mulli]

Okay, I just gotta ask. In what ways is he an example as what to do as an NFL owner.

How to make a fortune without really trying. haha

 

[john h]

Who cares if anyone on or working for the team is a Cardinal's fan? All I want is a good product on the field that results in wins, winning seasons and championships. Whiz and Graves could wear Pittsburg underoos to bed every night and it shouldn't matter; only wins matter.

Bidwill being a Cardinal fan longer than most of us only tells me he tolerates failure and clearly doesn't feel the need to provide a quality product for his consumer base (the fans).

Cardinal Mike!!

Note: I know better than to respond to trolls but I couldn't help myself. This is the best troll we've had since NEM so savor it gentlemen!

Nice post Cardinal Mike. We are the prime example of failure as an organization. No team in the NFL loses money. Most money is made on appreciation. The Cards were the last time I looked the least valuable franchise in the NFL. Maybe since the new stadium we have moved up just a little. For fans, winning is the only thing. I have no interest in how much money the Bidwills make but do have an interest in how much CAP money they spend. That of course determines much of how successful your team will be. The only common denominator over these decades of failure is ownership. It is no accident that we are who we are and have the record we have. I do not care how nice a guy Mr. Bidwill is or how much he donates to Charity. All I care about as a 60 year Cardinal fan is winning, which is what the game is all about for fans. The Bidwills major goal is likely profits as is most business. Some owners have a major goal of winning as they see that as a way to make more profits.

 

[Cardiac]

How to make a fortune without really trying. haha

Well played.

 

[cgolden]

If the league goes to a 17 game season for a bit before jumping up to 18 games, I'd love to see them play some nuetral site games at places that don't normally have NFL games and more games outside the US.

 

[THESMEL]

so

Jerry Colangelo is a mess without the Diamondbacks?

We all know the history I surrender, Bill has never paid enough to GM's, Coaches, QB's Players to expect success.

Hiring Buddy Ryan was stupid after he went to the playoffs 4 year in a row in the same division with the Eagles. Nah We have Buddy Ryan right here as a Head Coach in Whisenhunt, Same problem different coach, Bill has paid for this problem before, giving a HC broad personell and operation powers in a contract.

Kind of like paying Jake Plummer the highest QB contract ever a the time, After performance Bill paid, They died and It's all Bill's fault. what A crock.
yea the results really suck but It is not because Bill did not do his part, Michael either this time.

Ask him about Players pay scale, contracts, overall well being of the NFl, AFL, NFL Europe, USFL, What teams came, cried and died and exactly why, history of the players union, CBA's, spirit of the salary cap, revenue sharing, lawsuits, depression, recessions, wars, field conditions, lunar landing, lunch pail players, gale sayers, Jim Brown, Frank Gifford, bob Griese, Bo Jackson the first draft and every draft since ect. ect and how the affect the NFL as A whole and the Divisions and the Cardinals In the 1890's 1900, 10's, 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000, 10's.

then ask Jerry Jones the risk of building a 1 billion stadium in this economy, He carried more risk and sacrifice.

I value Bill Bidwill, I think He's a good Cardinal with a poor results.

Jerry Jones will kill another team outright for the good of the Cowboys, He may care a little but not much about the NFL as a whole.

He jumped in after it was sure thing, secure investment, After Bill and others did the heavy lifting, in spite of guys like Jones. We'll see this year.

This is the year of the reckoning, the dividing point in the future of the NFL. We will see who schools who. who survives against great odds.

This will Be Bill Bidwills shining moment, his lifes work is the foundation the Todays modern NFL success. He earned his money here the hard way.

but he aint got time to explain it, never has, He is to busy monitoring and maintaining and cleaning up other's messes.

Nice post Cardinal Mike. We are the prime example of failure as an organization. No team in the NFL loses money. Most money is made on appreciation. The Cards were the last time I looked the least valuable franchise in the NFL. Maybe since the new stadium we have moved up just a little. For fans, winning is the only thing. I have no interest in how much money the Bidwills make but do have an interest in how much CAP money they spend. That of course determines much of how successful your team will be. The only common denominator over these decades of failure is ownership. It is no accident that we are who we are and have the record we have. I do not care how nice a guy Mr. Bidwill is or how much he donates to Charity. All I care about as a 60 year Cardinal fan is winning, which is what the game is all about for fans. The Bidwills major goal is likely profits as is most business. Some owners have a major goal of winning as they see that as a way to make more profits.

 

[Duckjake]

If the league goes to a 17 game season for a bit before jumping up to 18 games, I'd love to see them play some nuetral site games at places that don't normally have NFL games and more games outside the US.

I think that is a great idea.

Although we used to joke that the Cards should play their 8 home games in 8 different cities. Portland, San Antonio, Phoenix, Tucson, Birmingham, Austin, Las Vegas and LA for instance.

We would call them the NOWHERE Cardinals. Then they went to the SB so we had to stop joking about them. Little did we know....

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

.

Looks like the team is worth almost a Billion dollars.

Does that mean we should now refer to him as Billion Bidwill rather than just Bill?

 

[az240zz]

Mike & Mulli, I understand and respect your position. next time I see you at a Snickers game I'll remember to wave and cheer for the home team. I'll tolerate the loud Willy wonka fans screaming out drunken obsenities as our hometown snickers melt into a pile of goo with peanuts on Monday Night Snack Down. Looks kind of like a sick puppies poo or something.

Has snickers ever wrote a billion dollars worth of checks in Arizona?

Appreciate your post Catfish. I'm really torn, My real problem is that Whiz says one thing then does another. Like running the ball again and again and again. Edge, Beanie THT doesn't matter.

Or passing the ball with Kurt, ML, DA, Max, SKELTON, again, again, again and again.

I have no new Idea, I think Our staff sucks cause The Cardinals as a whole have never recovered since the Saints play off destruction. I see the same team that gave up with 6 minutes left in the 3rd 1/4 of our 3rd divisional playoff game ever.

The same team that ran the feature RB 2 times at that point in the game, after THT busted a lead on the opening play. Reminds me of Ron Whites Joke" that boy has alot of quit in him"

We look like a team that wants to big play or trick our way to the playoffs, high pressure offense, high risk defense. basically don't work that way, long term in the NFL.

With KW it worked 9-7 times, Edge was the difference maker in the playoffs, without edge we don't have a SB, and We would have won it if Edge was featured in it. IMO

We have fallen and we can't get up. Cards have taken on the Whizard of AZ's personality, problem is were back in Kansas, and we look stupid in red slippers. with monkeys flying out our AZ.

this made me smile

 

[DemsMyBoys]

this made me smile

Thesmel's last paragraph was a classic. And an example that I, for one, can appreciate the creativity and the effort put into writing without necessairly agreeing with the conclusions made by the author.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Thesmel's last paragraph was a classic. And an example that I, for one, can appreciate the creativity and the effort put into writing without necessairly agreeing with the conclusions made by the author.

I laughed out loud. Regardless of content the metaphors were hysterical

 

[40yearfan]

No you are not getting away with this.

Let's average it out over the last 4 years plus next year and see where we rank, also you need to use the actual outgo, bonuses and all plus add in the coaching salaries and now we're talking.

You show me where we make it out of the bottom of third of the NFL in those terms and then and I'll start to believe you.

I want to see the books, over the last 5 current years, meaining next year counts too and then I want to compare it to other teams.

If after that we're in the top third then you win, if we're in the bottom third I win.

Conrad, have you not paid attention to any of Joeschmo's posts? He has put these numbers on this board numerous times. In the past 5 years, the Cards are in the top third of NFL teams in player spending. If you don't believe me, go to this web-site and you can do it for yourself:

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2005

You can do all the comparing you want with this site.

 

[40yearfan]

40, Bill Bidwill got the team for FREE. So I'd say $30 million is a very healthy return.

Don't forget the appreciation in value. Some $250 million or so since the stadium was opened? Now that's a nice return of $50 million a year.

To answer your question: In today's market I'd take a 4% return plus a 10% annual appreciation in value of the asset I got for free and getting to be an NFL owner. The perks that go with that have to be fantastic. Probably worth more than the income.

Looks like the team is worth almost a Billion dollars.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/football-valuations-10_Arizona-Cardinals_309893.html

It's very obvious you have never run a business and have no knowledge of what is expected in a business of this size. If you are willing to take a billion dollar asset and only expect a $30 million return, you won't have your asset very long.

 

[40yearfan]

Yes...

And if you were running this business for a board of directors, you would get fired immediately with that attitude.

 

[40yearfan]

Yes it does. Business people look for return on investment. Since the investment is about $800,000 adjusted for inflation I'd say $30 million is a fairly good rate of return. Especially when you consider that $30 million number is probably after things like Michael and Bill's salaries, company cars, depreciation etc.

I guarantee you that if you had purchased an apartment complex worth $23 million for $23,000 you would look at your income from that property differently than if you had paid $23 million for it. Sure you want as much profit as possible but you wouldn't despair because you only made $750,000 instead of $2.3 million annually.

If $30 million plus 10% annual increase in asset value was such a poor rate of return wouldn't a prudent businessman sell, take what was left after taxes, and invest it somewhere else? But you don't see the Bidwills looking for a buyer do you?

What makes you think that that $30 million was net profit? Mitch claims they saved $30 million in salaries (which I have seen no back-up for). How do you know that $30 million wasn't spent elsewhere on other expenses if indeed they did save that amount?

As far as the rest of your post, it is just non-sense. They've owned this team for over 80 years. The original purchase price has nothing to do with what it is worth now and is not a factor when you try to generate the profit potential. And to compare it to owning an apartment building is just silly. It's like comparing an apple to a golf ball.

As far as your last statement is concerned, the Bidwill's didn't sell this business when they were barely breaking even every year. Why would they even entertain that thought now that they have a viable NFL franchise?