Cardinals' Talk April 2

[overseascardfan]

I loathe this age topic, like it matters. Sacks are sacks. What difference does it make if the guy is 20 or 25? 12 sacks are 12 sacks. Our best pass rusher last year? 36 years old.

Does Keim look at the free agents and say "Hes 36, no way!". He says "We need sacks, he can get us sacks". A 19 year old can bust just as quickly as a 25 year old. Its beyond irrelevant.

Furthermore that 25 year old has 5 more years of physical and mental maturity that gives him a major edge on the 20 year old.


and RE competition, a guy is special if he dominates regardless. Judon had 20 sacks, thats special. Kalil Mack is also a small school guy, Buffalo. Thats so disrespectful to say "hes a small school guy". Like small school players are inept. Theres not a soul on this forum, in his prime, who could beat a small school LT for 1 sack, if his life depended on it.

Sure, if there were someone else with the same stats, but there arent any 20 year olds with 20 sacks. Judon, at 25, does.

So he doesnt have a young equivalent. The guy is just a beast

Let me put it this way. Say a guy like Noah Spence or Shalique Calhoun (better example, he's 23) are put on a JV HS football team. How do you think they would do? I am willing to bet they get 20 sacks, maybe more.

GUARANTEED, Judon doesn't get 20 sacks playing in a Power 5 conference, these kids are further developed and are battle tested against stronger competition.

Prior to this year, Judon had 14 sacks in 3 years (didn't count his 2 injury years), that's less than 5 a year. So this 20 could just be a one year wonder.

Khalil Mack is a bad example because he was on scouts radar after his dominating performance against a really talented OSU team.

 

[Mitch]

I 'm like SK, I really like the trade downs if available early.

1- It's an extremely deep draft for 4 Rd's yet again.

2- The pick within the first 10 picks or so of the second Rd., I agree, won't be much worse at all then picking 29. We have the flexability to take one of a myriad of extremely talented DLmen there or secondary. Personally I am COMPLETELY IN on drafting Jaylon Smith. But one of the top 7 DLmen (a super deep group) will also be there, as well as a top 4-6 CB.

3- All indications point towards the Cardinals taking a QBOF with the second trade down pick, either Jones, Hackenberg or possibly a smaller school dark horse a bit later on. Hogan in the 4th also would make some sense. Then you can take the interior OL and secondary after the initial pick.

4- As we saw last year it gives you all kinds of flexability to trade up in the following rounds to ensure one of your top priorities doesn't get snatched away.

Very good points, WBB!

Draft flexibility is key especially when you want to take some fliers on QBs, WRs, Ks and injured players like Jaylon Smith.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch- I would love to see them keep Freeney, but how many outside linebackers/edge rushers do you think we will keep?

Jones
Golden
Okafor
Freeney
Riddick
Okpalauago
Wagenmann
Reilly

and you also suggest we take another in the 3rd or 4th round?

Lets say we keep only one of the development group of Riddick, Okpalauago, Wagenmann, Reilly. That still leaves 6 OLB if we take use a draft pick on and edge player.

Like they say, VT, you can never have too many pass rushers.

What I was thinking was:

53 Man Roster:

1. Chandler Jones
2. Markus Golden
3. Dwight Freeney
4. Draft Pick
5. Alex Okafor
6. Winner of competition between Riddick, Okpalaugo, Wagenmann & Reilly---then keep 2 of the young ones who don't make the roster on the PS.

 

[Mitch]

I don't get the Matt Judon love. Dude is going to be 25 and he is coming from a small D-2 school. Yes he had 20 sacks but against a much lower level of competition and against kids that were a few years younger. He is a OLD project at this point, you don't use a 3rd rounder on a 25 year old project, maybe if he was 20.

I see your point---but if you can get his 4 prime years---and he can give you QB pressure and sacks as a rotation guy, he's well worth it.

When I watch Judon on tape...I can see how he would be difficult for any tackle to block---he has a quick first step, good speed around the corner to the QB, and the ability to stack the tackle up, bull rush him and convert power to speed. Plus, the way he chases plays---his motor is impressive.

At the Combine---Judon notched the top scores at his position for the 40 (4.73), bench reps at 225 (30) and vertical jump (35'). Obviously, he is a very committed athlete---and he has fought back from an ACL in 2013, so he has shown commendable resiliency and dedication.

Sometimes pass rushers need time to develop---James Harrison bounced around the NFL on practice squads and a stint with the Rhein Fire (NFL Europe) for three years before he got his chance---he was 25 when he got his first taste of NFL action. He went on to earn 5 pro Bowls, 4 All-Pros (2 1st Team All-Pro, plus one NFL Defensive MVP award) and 2 Super Bowl rings. You never know. Judson has a better chance coming into the league than Harrison (6-0, 258, OLB/DE UCFA from Kent. St. who had 5 sacks as a senior) because of Judon's size (6-3, 275) and the fact that he will get drafted and should be a top 120 pick.

 

[Mitch]

If only four will make the roster why not package up to get the best four possible? We can still do that by moving down, out of the first but why not maneuver all the capital to get the best four picks we can? The practice squad can be filled with our current guys plus FAs. Jaylon Smith can be stashed on IR so worth the risk at some point. Powers doesn't solve our problems at corner but he provides some nice depth. We need a starter who can defend the outside, a center. Of your drafts I like the framework of this one but would try to find a CB with the 92nd pick. Assuming we don't resign Powers I am fine with taking two CBs. Walter which corner would you slide in at 92 in this scenario?

34. Ryan Kelly, C, Alabama
92. Maliek Collins, DE/DT, Nebraska CB Here
104. Victor Ochi, OLB, Stony Brook
128. Deiondre' Hall, CB, Northern Iowa

How would this one look to you, Reddog?

34. Ryan Kelly, C, Alabama
92. Ryan Smith*, CB, North Carolina Central (or Jalen Mills, CB, LSU)
104. Victor Ochi, OLB, Stony Brook
128. Romeo Okwara, DE, Notre Dame

* The Cardinals have worked Ryan Smith out and are very high on him---he's a small school kid who has been zooming up draft boards. On tape he looks outstanding. I think he is right up there in their consideration for the #92 pick, so I think you may be correct about what position SK wants to address there.

 

[Reddog]

How would this one look to you, Reddog?

34. Ryan Kelly, C, Alabama
92. Ryan Smith*, CB, North Carolina Central (or Jalen Mills, CB, LSU)
104. Victor Ochi, OLB, Stony Brook
128. Romeo Okwara, DE, Notre Dame

* The Cardinals have worked Ryan Smith out and are very high on him---he's a small school kid who has been zooming up draft boards. On tape he looks outstanding. I think he is right up there in their consideration for the #92 pick, so I think you may be correct about what position SK wants to address there.

I like it but I might stay with a second DB like Hall at 128 or might consider a Safety. I feel like we are paper thin back there and HB taking longer to recover than we expect would really exacerbate the problem. Hopefully Jefferson is back if Powers goes we will need more help than one guy can provide.

34. Ryan Kelly, C, Alabama
92. Ryan Smith*, CB, North Carolina Central (or Jalen Mills, CB, LSU)
104. Victor Ochi, OLB, Stony Brook
128. Deiondre' Hall, CB, Northern Iowa or even

 

[Mitch]

I like it but I might stay with a second DB like Hall at 128 or might consider a Safety. I feel like we are paper thin back there and HB taking longer to recover than we expect would really exacerbate the problem. Hopefully Jefferson is back if Powers goes we will need more help than one guy can provide.

34. Ryan Kelly, C, Alabama
92. Ryan Smith*, CB, North Carolina Central (or Jalen Mills, CB, LSU)
104. Victor Ochi, OLB, Stony Brook
128. Deiondre' Hall, CB, Northern Iowa or even

Actually, you are thinking very much the way BA & SK are---they both have asserted that CB and S are high priorities. So how about this:

34. Ryan Kelly, C, Alabama
92. Miles Killebrew, S, Southern Utah
104. Ryan Smith, CB, North Carolina Central
128. De'Vondre Campbell, OLB, Minnesota

All of these players have met with Steve Keim.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I loathe this age topic, like it matters. Sacks are sacks. What difference does it make if the guy is 20 or 25? 12 sacks are 12 sacks. Our best pass rusher last year? 36 years old.

Does Keim look at the free agents and say "Hes 36, no way!". He says "We need sacks, he can get us sacks". A 19 year old can bust just as quickly as a 25 year old. Its beyond irrelevant.

Furthermore that 25 year old has 5 more years of physical and mental maturity that gives him a major edge on the 20 year old.


and RE competition, a guy is special if he dominates regardless. Judon had 20 sacks, thats special. Kalil Mack is also a small school guy, Buffalo. Thats so disrespectful to say "hes a small school guy". Like small school players are inept. Theres not a soul on this forum, in his prime, who could beat a small school LT for 1 sack, if his life depended on it.

I had two sacks in college and I only played seven games due to injury. I guarantee you, even at 25 I couldn't have sniffed an NFL field.

 

[Reddog]

Actually, you are thinking very much the way BA & SK are---they both have asserted that CB and S are high priorities. So how about this:

34. Ryan Kelly, C, Alabama
92. Miles Killebrew, S, Southern Utah
104. Ryan Smith, CB, North Carolina Central
128. De'Vondre Campbell, OLB, Minnesota

All of these players have met with Steve Keim.

Love it!

 

[Chopper0080]

I loathe this age topic, like it matters. Sacks are sacks. What difference does it make if the guy is 20 or 25? 12 sacks are 12 sacks. Our best pass rusher last year? 36 years old.

Does Keim look at the free agents and say "Hes 36, no way!". He says "We need sacks, he can get us sacks". A 19 year old can bust just as quickly as a 25 year old. Its beyond irrelevant.

Furthermore that 25 year old has 5 more years of physical and mental maturity that gives him a major edge on the 20 year old.


and RE competition, a guy is special if he dominates regardless. Judon had 20 sacks, thats special. Kalil Mack is also a small school guy, Buffalo. Thats so disrespectful to say "hes a small school guy". Like small school players are inept. Theres not a soul on this forum, in his prime, who could beat a small school LT for 1 sack, if his life depended on it.

Khalil Mack was recruited to go to Miami...get his name out of the small school conversation. What matters in terms of prospects is where were they recruited to go, where did they go, and how quickly did they have an impact. The follow up is how do they win.

If you have a guy who was not highly recruited, was not productive early in his career, and then wins with strength and power after he has been in college for 5 years, that is a red flag.

Mack was highly recruited. He had an impact early. He won with a combination of speed and power. He checked off all sorts to boxes.

I'm not sure what boxes Judon checks off other than production which has been shown to not directly translate to the NFL. Consider that the guy whose school sack record he beat was Dan Skuta...not a prolific edge pass rusher in the NFL. A 4.75 40 is ok. A broad jump of 9 feet is not great. I just don't know how he is anything other than a project in the NFL until you see him vs top competition. Very risky.