Cards\Giants Post Game chatter. 12/13/20

[football karma]

You can look at anything over a wide enough margin and find an uptick. You could go back to the stock market crash in February this year and say "Well it's still better than late 2017" which wouldn't make you feel any better if you invested at any time since then.

It's a simple fact. The offense was much better earlier in the season and it's gotten worse. I don't know why people need try obfuscate that simple fact with "Yeah but it's better than 2019". 2019 is done and gone.

We were 6-3. We are now 7-6. We have lost to several teams recently we should have beat. We completely one pass the whole first half of the Rams. We got beat by the Pats and the Ram's destroyed them last week.

The most concerning part is that Kliff has shown no sign of knowing how to fix it. We won yesterday thanks to several turnovers and short fields in a game we should have scored 40+.

If the offense continues to play like it is we will lose against the Rams for sure, we may well lose against the Niners and Eagles too.

just a straightforward year over year look -- thats it

the NFL is a week to week league. Ask the Saints, or, talk to the Seahawks last week. I am not going to lose sleep over a three score win yesterday.

the Cards have shown that they are a good team, not a great team. They can beat really good teams, but lose to bad teams. This is who they are. They could be 10-3 right now, or, just as likely, 4-9 (based on the randomness associated with one score games).

Why are they who they are?

50% young QB still learning, 40% roster, 10% HC still learning. Science.

 

[DVontel]

DJ Humphries has been overall awesome this year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I didn't realize Murray started at RG yesterday. That explains why the OL was so much better.

Jordan Philips only 4 snaps. Wonder if he hurt himself again or they held him out because they didn't need him?

I know Reddick had a blinder but I don't like Vance playing him 96% of snaps while Kennard and Gardeck barely see the field. Especially when Gardeck had 2 sacks on 8 snaps. Got to rotate a bit more and keep them fresh.

Apparently Phillips went out with a hammy. Man... what a bust that guy has been in his first year.

 

[football karma]

more fun facts:

Cards first six games, opponents record as of today: 24-54. Cards record 4-2 Detroit is the bad loss here.
Cards next six games opponent record: 49-29 Cards record: 2-4 All one score games in the 4th Q. NE is the bad loss here.
Cards remaining four (inc. NYG result): 23-28

 

[daves]

You can look at anything over a wide enough margin and find an uptick. You could go back to the stock market crash in February this year and say "Well it's still better than late 2017" which wouldn't make you feel any better if you invested at any time since then.

What are you talking about?? First of all, the stock market is a poor analogy since it can go up without limit over time, rather than being limited to a range between 0 and 16 wins every season. In football, you cannot look at "anything over a wide enough margin and find an uptick".

Second of all, @football karma is not cherry picking a period of bad performance for comparison to make this week's game look good - he simply posted year-over-year stats for the last few seasons to highlight the big-picture long-term trend.

Third of all, if i had invested literally any time between 2017 and today, i'd be pretty happy, considering that the stock market is within a few points of an all-time high.

Everyone gets that you think the only timeframe that matters for comparison is games 10-12 vs. games 1-9. And it's perfectly valid to look at more recent games vs. previous games to see the medium-term trend. But you simultaneously pooh-pooh @football karma's year-over-year comparison, AND make excuses to invalidate the game-over-game improvement ("short fields"), while only wanting to focus on the negative.

The most concerning part is that Kliff has shown no sign of knowing how to fix it. We won yesterday thanks to several turnovers and short fields in a game we should have scored 40+.

@SoonerLou posted a video showing that Kingsbury absolutely IS making adjustments to "fix it". I think we all agree that more work is needed.

No question the offense continued to struggle at times yesterday, and there are issues that continue to need addressing, especially in the red zone. But the Giants D have a top 10 scoring D (9th after yesterday) and just shut down the Seahawks in Seattle, while the Cardinals put up 390 yards and had 37:52 time of possession, both areas where they struggled in the three prior games.

So, compared to last year, this year is better. Compared to the last game (vs. the Rams) or the last 3 games, this game was better. But YES! Compared to the average of games 1-9 (as someone pointed out, vs. teams with average losing records) to the average of games 10-12 (but not so much game 13), there's a downtrend that we'd all like to see reversed much more thoroughly than the team demonstrated vs. the Giants.

...dave

 

[Ronin]

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[BritCard]

What are you talking about?? First of all, the stock market is a poor analogy since it can go up without limit over time, rather than being limited to a range between 0 and 16 wins every season. In football, you cannot look at "anything over a wide enough margin and find an uptick".

Second of all, @football karma is not cherry picking a period of bad performance for comparison to make this week's game look good - he simply posted year-over-year stats for the last few seasons to highlight the big-picture long-term trend.

Third of all, if i had invested literally any time between 2017 and today, i'd be pretty happy, considering that the stock market is within a few points of an all-time high.

Everyone gets that you think the only timeframe that matters for comparison is games 10-12 vs. games 1-9. And it's perfectly valid to look at more recent games vs. previous games to see the medium-term trend. But you simultaneously pooh-pooh @football karma's year-over-year comparison, AND make excuses to invalidate the game-over-game improvement ("short fields"), while only wanting to focus on the negative.


@SoonerLou posted a video showing that Kingsbury absolutely IS making adjustments to "fix it". I think we all agree that more work is needed.

No question the offense continued to struggle at times yesterday, and there are issues that continue to need addressing, especially in the red zone. But the Giants D have a top 10 scoring D (9th after yesterday) and just shut down the Seahawks in Seattle, while the Cardinals put up 390 yards and had 37:52 time of possession, both areas where they struggled in the three prior games.

So, compared to last year, this year is better. Compared to the last game (vs. the Rams) or the last 3 games, this game was better. But YES! Compared to the average of games 1-9 (as someone pointed out, vs. teams with average losing records) to the average of games 10-12 (but not so much game 13), there's a downtrend that we'd all like to see reversed much more thoroughly than the team demonstrated vs. the Giants.

...dave

Theres too much there to reply to but the basics of my argument is this...

Why the focus on being better than last year as if NFL teams gradually build? As if incremental improvement is the way to a superbowl.

Teams go from garbage to good, good to garbage and back again all the time. Every year.

I understand the crutch of leaning on "its better than last year" but I don't see that as a predictor for next year. Frankly, with 2nd year Kyler Murray, Deandre Hopkins and a HC who supposed to be an offensive genius I expected better, especially after starting 6-3, and I think most other fans did.

Most fans predicted a middling 8-8 or 9-7 season, but I think much of that was based on having a poor defense. But our defense has been much better than expected.

More concerning is I'm seeing things that worry me for next year.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think we can all agree that the progress isn't as far as we all would like it to be. That said, there is improvement over last year and the year before that. As long as we continue that, we should be in a good place. Kliff, Vance, Keim, Kyler and all.

This is a better football team than last year's team.

I think this is a pivotal offseason to shore up some of the deficiencies. Make the right moves mostly and if Murray takes a leap, I think the Cards become a playoff contender.

 

[Ronin]

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[Chopper0080]

DJ Humphries has been overall awesome this year.

The Captain has stepped up.

 

[Ronin]

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[Chopper0080]

This is a better football team than last year's team.

I think this is a pivotal offseason to shore up some of the deficiencies. Make the right moves mostly and if Murray takes a leap, I think the Cards become a playoff contender.

This will be a pivotal off-season with some tough decisions to be made.

Pat Peterson - tough decision looking at our secondary and FA class.
Larry Fitzgerald - emotional decision.
Haason Reddick / Markus Golden - guys who are playing well but limited.
Dan Arnold - Murray trusts him.

The secondary as a whole. We have one piece in Budda. Two inconsistent pieces in Murphy and Jalen Thompson. Not sure we should count on either.

ILB - Need depth.

DL - Need someone to step up or need more talent.

IOL - Need better talent.

OT - Need Josh Jones to play well.

WR - Ugh

RB - Same

 

[football karma]

Why the focus on being better than last year as if NFL teams gradually build? As if incremental improvement is the way to a superbowl.

at this point, its a 4 game win and +12 pts per game point diff improvement. Thats not gradual.

4 game increments are the diff between dregs (i.e 4-12) -> (8-8) respectable -> contender (12-4)

i think the Bills are a legit SB contender. They went 6-10 (2018), 10-6 (2019) (hey look -- +4 games) and now sit at 10-3.

 

[football karma]

Two inconsistent pieces in Murphy and Jalen Thompson. Not sure we should count on either.

i think Murphy develops into a quality starter. Maybe not a probowler, but a guy you can count on as a playoff team. Giant leap this year vs last

 

[Chopper0080]

i think Murphy develops into a quality starter. Maybe not a probowler, but a guy you can count on as a playoff team. Giant leap this year vs last

I hope he does and I like what I have seen from Jalen, but Jalen hasn't been healthy and Byron is getting beat out for snaps by 31 year old Dre Kirkpatrick. Neither makes you think you should count on them long term.

 

[BritCard]

This will be a pivotal off-season with some tough decisions to be made.

Pat Peterson - tough decision looking at our secondary and FA class.
Larry Fitzgerald - emotional decision.
Haason Reddick / Markus Golden - guys who are playing well but limited.
Dan Arnold - Murray trusts him.

The secondary as a whole. We have one piece in Budda. Two inconsistent pieces in Murphy and Jalen Thompson. Not sure we should count on either.

ILB - Need depth.

DL - Need someone to step up or need more talent.

IOL - Need better talent.

OT - Need Josh Jones to play well.

WR - Ugh

RB - Same

One thing I realised when Fitz was out was that I didn't feel good about the leadership on offense without him

 

[BritCard]

i think Murphy develops into a quality starter. Maybe not a probowler, but a guy you can count on as a playoff team. Giant leap this year vs last

I think he's been a quality nickel CB most of this season

 

[Krangodnzr]

I hope he does and I like what I have seen from Jalen, but Jalen hasn't been healthy and Byron is getting beat out for snaps by 31 year old Dre Kirkpatrick. Neither makes you think you should count on them long term.

You may or may not agree with this, but most teams in the league have cornerback issues. I would argue that really only 4-5 teams don't.

Kirkpatrick has been okay. He's not an absolute embarrassment and he has put together a few pretty good games. I'm more annoyed with Pat P. He's paid to be a top corner and I doubt he is better next year.

I'd almost rather go for two decent corner contracts and let Pat and Kirkpatrick walk. There will be a few decent corners this year, not many, but a few.

 

[Krangodnzr]

This will be a pivotal off-season with some tough decisions to be made.

Pat Peterson - tough decision looking at our secondary and FA class.
Larry Fitzgerald - emotional decision.
Haason Reddick / Markus Golden - guys who are playing well but limited.
Dan Arnold - Murray trusts him.

The secondary as a whole. We have one piece in Budda. Two inconsistent pieces in Murphy and Jalen Thompson. Not sure we should count on either.

ILB - Need depth.

DL - Need someone to step up or need more talent.

IOL - Need better talent.

OT - Need Josh Jones to play well.

WR - Ugh

RB - Same

And not all of those positions need a huge upgrade. I'd bring in a midgrade IOL to compete. Bring back Golden or Reddick and sign a mid-level rotation OLB, while hoping that Jones comes back strong.

I think receiver is the place to go for a good upgrade. It pains me to say this, but Fitz needs to either take a vet min deal or walk. Sentimentality is holding the offense back in this situation. $11 million will pay for a good #2, not a meh #3 like we have now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You may or may not agree with this, but most teams in the league have cornerback issues. I would argue that really only 4-5 teams don't.

Kirkpatrick has been okay. He's not an absolute embarrassment and he has put together a few pretty good games. I'm more annoyed with Pat P. He's paid to be a top corner and I doubt he is better next year.

I'd almost rather go for two decent corner contracts and let Pat and Kirkpatrick walk. There will be a few decent corners this year, not many, but a few.

same. If we’re forced to franchise one player I want it to be Reddick. We can overcompensate a middling CB group if we have a really good pass rush and with Reddick on one side and CJ back on the other, hopefully Simmons tearing up the middle, we put our resources in the second level of the D and let the chips fly.

at least with Reddick there’s the possibility of upside with a franchised guy. With Peterson, it’s dedicating huge money to a guy we hope won’t get WORSE as he has the last couple years while also not even playing at a high level at this point.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And not all of those positions need a huge upgrade. I'd bring in a midgrade IOL to compete. Bring back Golden or Reddick and sign a mid-level rotation OLB, while hoping that Jones comes back strong.

I think receiver is the place to go for a good upgrade. It pains me to say this, but Fitz needs to either take a vet min deal or walk. Sentimentality is holding the offense back in this situation. $11 million will pay for a good #2, not a meh #3 like we have now.

agree with this too. Love Larry more than any Phoenix athlete ever, but we can’t keep paying for the past when it keeps this team from moving getting better in the present and future.

 

[Krangodnzr]

same. If we’re forced to franchise one player I want it to be Reddick. We can overcompensate a middling CB group if we have a really good pass rush and with Reddick on one side and CJ back on the other, hopefully Simmons tearing up the middle, we put our resources in the second level of the D and let the chips fly.

at least with Reddick there’s the possibility of upside with a franchised guy. With Peterson, it’s dedicating huge money to a guy we hope won’t get WORSE as he has the last couple years while also not even playing at a high level at this point.

Reddick has shown legit skills, legit pass rush strategies that work. I think if he continues to get meaningful snaps as a rusher, he'll produce at a good level.

The Cardinals roster has some holes, but I think they should be able to address a few of them this offseason...that's a big should considering Keim is in charge...

 

[Krangodnzr]

agree with this too. Love Larry more than any Phoenix athlete ever, but we can’t keep paying for the past when it keeps this team from moving forward in the present and future.

@Chopper0080 said he'd look at Juju and I 100% agree. He'd be a great compliment to Hopkins, and he can be effective in the slot or out wide.

One thing I've noticed this year is that it seems Fitz isn't nearly as effective blocking on the WR screens this year. He seems to be late to get on his blocks a lot.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

You may or may not agree with this, but most teams in the league have cornerback issues. I would argue that really only 4-5 teams don't.

Kirkpatrick has been okay. He's not an absolute embarrassment and he has put together a few pretty good games. I'm more annoyed with Pat P. He's paid to be a top corner and I doubt he is better next year.

I'd almost rather go for two decent corner contracts and let Pat and Kirkpatrick walk. There will be a few decent corners this year, not many, but a few.

Gone are the days a team could have Bobby Taylor and Troy Vincent as their starting CB's. I hated the Eagles, but really liked watching those 2 guys get after it.

 

[JosiahLee]

same. If we’re forced to franchise one player I want it to be Reddick. We can overcompensate a middling CB group if we have a really good pass rush and with Reddick on one side and CJ back on the other, hopefully Simmons tearing up the middle, we put our resources in the second level of the D and let the chips fly.

at least with Reddick there’s the possibility of upside with a franchised guy. With Peterson, it’s dedicating huge money to a guy we hope won’t get WORSE as he has the last couple years while also not even playing at a high level at this point.

I really love the idea of tagging Reddick. This way we find out if he actually turned the corner or if he was a one-hit-wonder in a contract year. This is similar to how I think tagging Drake last off-season was a great move. It allowed us to get a much larger sample size to see if all the hype was legit (which by the way I think Drake has quietly done his job, but I’m not interested in resigning him for what he’ll want to be paid. Maybe we sign Fournette to pair with Chase? Anyway, I’m getting side tracked).

The point is I think the solution is to bring back Reddick, but only by giving him the tag.