Clippers @ Suns 4-2-14

[Catlover]

Bledsoe should be the one they let go. He is young and may learn, but he's also gone through what ? 2 or 3 knee surgeries.

I said the same thing a week ago and nearly sparked a riot. Here's hoping you fare better than I did.

That's quite a bit different from what you said.

 

[Catlover]

But, but, but... we can have a point guard on the floor at all times, and Bledsoe is so quick, and nobody knows how to deal with two point guards, etc.

Stop talking about facts, we can't have that around here. In these parts of the Internet, Bledsoe is a top five player who will surpass LeBron and Kobe within a year or two. Facts be damned!

Yes, might as well exaggerate and mock. It tells us much more about you than it does about Bledsoe.

To the best of my knowledge there isn't a single person on this forum that has ever made the claim that Bledsoe is a top 5 player. I can remember one person who said he had top 5 potential, I remember that person well in fact. One person. Top 5 potential. How you turn that into "these parts of the internet" believe Bledsoe "will surpass Lebron" is beyond me.

What's our record with Bledsoe? What's our record without Bledsoe?

 

[Phrazbit]

Look up Collison's stats when he started back with the Pelicans. He sucked in the Pacers half court offense where every PG sucks because the Pacers are god awful offensively. He isn't bad but yea I wouldn't say he's as good as Bledsoe.

Lowry is better than Bledsoe though. And you do realize that Lowry is one of the best PG defenders in the NBA?

... Honestly, do you just say things and pray no one either knows better or will bother to look up something to contradict you? Lowry is one of the best PG defenders in the NBA? Is there some different NBA out there that I am not aware of? Have you been hanging out with Raptor fans? Not only has Lowry always had an iffy reputation as a defender but the Raptors are a better defensive team when he is out of the game.

I thought one of the great things about the Dragic/Bledsoe pairing was supposed to be that either one of them could initiate the offense. In the fourth quarter they got no offensive flow at all. Dragic was gassed because he had to play so many minutes during Bledsoe's foul trouble, and Bledsoe turned the ball over every time he tried to make something happen.

The Suns needed Green to space the floor down the stretch, but they couldn't put him at SG because of the two-PG set, and they couldn't put him at SF because they needed Tucker's hustle instead. So Green, the best Suns player at creating his own shot on the perimeter, spent most of the second half on the bench. The floor-spacing role went to Frye, which is why they couldn't control the defensive paint. All chain reactions stemming from the Dragic/Bledsoe combination not working on either end of the floor.

Please let this experiment be over.

But, but, but... we can have a point guard on the floor at all times, and Bledsoe is so quick, and nobody knows how to deal with two point guards, etc.

Stop talking about facts, we can't have that around here.

How does one quarter trump the majority of a season that we have seen from these two guys? Bledsoe gets into foul trouble and Goran gets gassed, we lose to a really good team and... "lets end this experiment".

Yeah, we're 22-10 when both these guys are healthy, but **** it. Blow it up. I mean, its not like they have one of the worst front court rotations in the NBA to drag through games. Its obvious that its the Bledsoe/Dragic pairing that is holding this team back from greater glory. Thats the "facts" apparently.

 

[sunsfan88]

... Honestly, do you just say things and pray no one either knows better or will bother to look up something to contradict you? Lowry is one of the best PG defenders in the NBA? Is there some different NBA out there that I am not aware of? Have you been hanging out with Raptor fans? Not only has Lowry always had an iffy reputation as a defender but the Raptors are a better defensive team when he is out of the game.

Once again you are proving your incompetence. Lowry has a reputation as a bad defender? On what planet? Your imaginary one?

All-Defensive Team

If you've watched any Raptors games, the one thing you can surely count on happening is Kyle Lowry taking a charge.

Or two, or three.

As of March 5, 2014 (according to Jeff Fox of Hoops Manifesto), Lowry leads the league in charges taken with 24, ahead of other effective defensive players such as Shane Battier and Blake Griffin.

Not only that, but he’s been the catalyst of the Raptors defense, which holds opponent to 97 points per game, good for fourth-best in the NBA.

Given the team’s impressive defense and Lowry’s individual brilliance on that side of the floor, it’s easy to see why he should be considered for a spot on either the first or second NBA All-Defensive teams at the end of the season.

It won’t be easy for Lowry to make such a team; after all, he was snubbed from the All-Star Game already. But if he can keep up his charges-taken total and keep the Raptors defense in the top five or 10 of most categories, he’s got a legitimate shot.

Lowry is often described as a bulldog by the Raptors announcers, and rightfully so. If you want a point guard who plays hard-nosed defense, is willing to put his body in front of bigger players and crashes the boards among the trees, then he’s your man.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/article...yle-lowry-deserve-serious-award-consideration

And then there's this by fans who actually watched him play daily. It's 2 years old but unless you think Lowry forgot to play defense in the last 2 years...

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=214244

 

[Phrazbit]

Once again you are proving your incompetence. Lowry has a reputation as a bad defender? On what planet? Your imaginary one?



And then there's this by fans who actually watched him play daily. It's 2 years old but unless you think Lowry forgot to play defense in the last 2 years...

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=214244

So the Raptor fan who writes some bleacher report articles loves his defense? Be still my heart.

Meanwhile their defense gets worse with him on the floor and you have another article from your vaunted bleacher-report...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1888229-why-kyle-lowry-is-fools-gold-on-nba-trade-market

Lowry's aggression often comes at a cost. He gambles for steals fairly frequently, thereby leaving his teammates scrambling in support whenever he comes up empty. His approach, combined with his lack of size, has left him vulnerable to getting torched by opposing point guards of all stripes, from Jeff Teague (17 points, 12 assists) and Mike Conley (29 points, five assists) to Damian Lillard (25 points, eight assists), John Wall (37 points) and Nate Robinson (23 points, five assists).

So... he has been torched by opposing defenses, the Raptors are worse defensively when he plays.

And your 2nd link? Oh... its Houston Rocket fans from two years ago talking about him on a forum.

Well, I stand corrected. Who cares that the Raptors give up less points with him on the bench, that he has been torched repeatedly by opposing PGs this year and that he has earned zero hardware as a defender. You and some guy on bleacher report who lists Lowry as one of his favorite athletes have proclaimed him the best. My bad. My "incompetence" strikes again.

I will try to remember to steer away from stats and facts from here on out when trying to prove a players worth and instead ask some dude wearing their jersey, or perhaps a close family member. That way I can get the real scoop.

Now, before you launch on some false narrative and perhaps stick some words in my mouth. I am not saying Lowry sucks on defense. What I am disputing is that he is one of "the best" in the game and obviously better than Bledsoe. Also, I am pointing out that you tend to pop off on people without having any idea what you're talking about.

 

[marios13]

Looking just at the pure stats of the game cause I haven't watched it I can come to this conclusion :
- they both had a bad night
- Goran made 11 of his 15 points from free throws, 2/11 FG % by him is probably the worst all year, 5 missed 3pts at 0 % , but at least he he got 8 assists
- Bledsoe had just 3 assists as a PG that is , early foul trouble did not help ...

I really don't get all the negativity on this board ... the Suns have proven they can beat and lose against practically anybody even without Bledsoe. I would prefer Hornachek not giving so much importance to Bledsoe playing well, because if he is not the whole team is falling apart. Green when he is hot is used to Dragic passing him the ball and I saw him being pulled down to the bench when he was scorching hot in favor of 2 PGs offense.

I think main problem of the team is that they felt everything will get a lot more easier with EB back and expect too much of him. It doesn't help that EB loves his new role as the go to guy and doesn't pass unless he has no other options. I would love if Goran developed a bit of his attitude and vice versa.

I think Goran is losing confidence in himself or is just plain tired and EB just wants to do too much.

Playoffs are still in the picture and as far as the cliffhangers go this year will be one of the best ever .

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes, might as well exaggerate and mock. It tells us much more about you than it does about Bledsoe.

To the best of my knowledge there isn't a single person on this forum that has ever made the claim that Bledsoe is a top 5 player. I can remember one person who said he had top 5 potential, I remember that person well in fact. One person. Top 5 potential. How you turn that into "these parts of the internet" believe Bledsoe "will surpass Lebron" is beyond me.

What's our record with Bledsoe? What's our record without Bledsoe?

But Stefan is COMPLETELY objective!

That hyperbole he spewed is very telling. Very telling, indeed.

 

[elindholm]

That's quite a bit different from what you said.

AfroSuns said this:

Bledsoe is good...but if the Suns have to give up a guard to get an inside presence...imo, Bledsoe should be the one they let go.

I said this:

Unless the Suns move way up in the lottery or find someone to trade a package of picks to, I think their best-case scenario is to sign-and-trade Bledsoe to a team with a solid young big prospect -- not that I know who that would be. Bledsoe and Dragic may complement each other well, but that doesn't change the fact that having them both on the roster leads to a certain amount of redundancy. Meanwhile, the roster is starved for talent at the power positions with no real game plan for how to fill that need.

How is that "quite a bit different"?

 

[Catlover]

How is that "quite a bit different"?

You're right, that is fairly close to the point he was making. I guess my memory was overly influenced by another comment of yours where you said he was an undersized combo guard that couldn't distribute well enough to play the point and couldn't shoot well enough to play the shooting guard. Knowing that's how you feel about him, it tends to shade your more neutral comments about Bledsoe.

 

[elindholm]

I guess my memory was overly influenced by another comment of yours where you said he was an undersized combo guard that couldn't distribute well enough to play the point and couldn't shoot well enough to play the shooting guard.

Well, yes, I said that too, but that wasn't what I was referring to in AfroSuns's post.

Knowing that's how you feel about him, it tends to shade your more neutral comments about Bledsoe.

It's always better to look at what is actually written.

 

[Catlover]

Well, yes, I said that too, but that wasn't what I was referring to in AfroSuns's post.



It's always better to look at what is actually written.

Yes it is but reading between the lines is a required skill around here. If you say a player sucks and some time later you say, he's really good but we ought to trade him for those collectible mugs we all like so much, it would be difficult for me to ignore your earlier words while I contemplated the value of a couple of pewter mugs.

I think we've gone down this path before but I'll go there again. I'd trade Bledsoe for a top notch big man or a young power forward with a high ceiling and a strong likelihood of reaching that ceiling. There aren't very many of them around. I still think we have two near superstars and I'd only willingly part with Bledsoe (or Goran) for talent of a similar level.

If we give up Bledsoe for something like the 10th best power forward, we'll spend the next 10 years secretly hoping that Eric's injuries ruin his career. If he stays healthy, trading him for the 10th best power forward won't likely rival the DJ for Robey deal but it won't be far behind.

 

[elindholm]

Yes it is but reading between the lines is a required skill around here. If you say a player sucks...

I never said Bledsoe sucks. I said he is a player without a position, which is true. His weaknesses prevent him from ever being a top player, in my opinion, but I don't think he sucks and never said so.

Reading between the lines isn't a required skill at all. In fact it's very dangerous. If you came to the conclusion that I think Bledsoe sucks, then your skill at reading between the lines leaves a great deal to be desired.

If we give up Bledsoe for something like the 10th best power forward, we'll spend the next 10 years secretly hoping that Eric's injuries ruin his career.

I seriously doubt that. Bledsoe might end up a top-ten guard, but I'd bet against it. How many on this board are hoping that injuries derail Eric Gordon, another recent Suns target? The consensus was that he wasn't worth the max, and there was pretty significant ambivalence about whether he was worth the risk. The Suns took that risk, but circumstances out of their control shifted the burden of that risk to another team.

Hardly anyone on this board writes about Eric Gordon anymore -- he's pretty much irrelevant, even though it was only recently that he looked to be one of the cornerstones of the Suns' future. I would expect the same thing to happen to Bledsoe if he and the Suns part ways. Yes, Bledsoe has actually played for the Suns -- 30-some-odd games by the time this season is done. But I don't think that's enough for most fans to establish a long-term affection for him.

If he stays healthy, trading him for the 10th best power forward won't likely rival the DJ for Robey deal but it won't be far behind.

Oh, people do love to bring up that deal. Johnson wanted out; that's part of what forced the Suns' hand and led to such a poor return.

But irrespective of that, I'd say that if the Suns trade Bledsoe for someone who proves to be the league's 10th-best power forward, that will be a bit of a disappointment. They should be able to do better than that, especially if they package a pick or include some other incentive. A top-five PF is probably too much to ask, but someone who can reach that level would be the target, I would think.

 

[Catlover]

I never said Bledsoe sucks. I said he is a player without a position, which is true. His weaknesses prevent him from ever being a top player, in my opinion, but I don't think he sucks and never said so.

Reading between the lines isn't a required skill at all. In fact it's very dangerous. If you came to the conclusion that I think Bledsoe sucks, then your skill at reading between the lines leaves a great deal to be desired.

But you do remember suggesting we trade him for collectible mugs?

I seriously doubt that. Bledsoe might end up a top-ten guard, but I'd bet against it.

...especially if they package a pick or include some other incentive. A top-five PF is probably too much to ask

He's already a top 10 guard AFAIC. If we have to include a draft pick with Bledsoe to acquire a power forward that falls somewhere between 6th and 9th, we will regret it for a long time.

Hardly anyone on this board writes about Eric Gordon anymore -- he's pretty much irrelevant, even though it was only recently that he looked to be one of the cornerstones of the Suns' future. I would expect the same thing to happen to Bledsoe if he and the Suns part ways. Yes, Bledsoe has actually played for the Suns -- 30-some-odd games by the time this season is done. But I don't think that's enough for most fans to establish a long-term affection for him.

You don't think you're exaggerating a bit here? Not much of a cornerstone if you ask me. They had what, 3 days to match the offer from the time we signed him? As for gaining a long term affection for Bledsoe, I'm already there and I'd wager the same is true for a lot more fans than you're suggesting.

Oh, people do love to bring up that deal. Johnson wanted out; that's part of what forced the Suns' hand and led to such a poor return.

Yes he did. Part of why he wanted out was that the Phoenix fans never quite forgave him for not being Paul Westphal. His issues with JM seem to be the only thing that's survived from back then but he never felt fully welcomed by Suns fans. I believe this was generally accepted back then but if you don't remember it that way, feel free to ignore it. The best I could offer to back it up would be hearsay.

 

[Mainstreet]

Look up Collison's stats when he started back with the Pelicans. He sucked in the Pacers half court offense where every PG sucks because the Pacers are god awful offensively. He isn't bad but yea I wouldn't say he's as good as Bledsoe.

Lowry is better than Bledsoe though. And you do realize that Lowry is one of the best PG defenders in the NBA?

I probably overreached with the Collison comparison but I think Lowry was right on. However, the Suns would do very well with a PG the quality of Collison backing up Dragic. I always thought he was hugely underrated as a PG that could start for the right team. I just do not want the Suns to get locked into a near max contract for a player yet unproven in Bledsoe. I'd like to keep Bledsoe at the right price or otherwise try to do a sign and trade for the right player.

 

[elindholm]

But you do remember suggesting we trade him for collectible mugs?

No, actually. I'm not denying that I said that, but I have no memory of it. Do you have a quote? I assume it will be obvious that I was being rhetorical. Or is this another case of your skill at reading between the lines?

Edit: I just did a search on my own name plus either "collectible" or "mugs" and it came up empty, except for this post right here. So, what are you talking about?

He's already a top 10 guard AFAIC.

Yes, so you keep saying.

You don't think you're exaggerating a bit here? Not much of a cornerstone if you ask me. They had what, 3 days to match the offer from the time we signed him?

Well, there was speculation for quite some time before the Suns actually delivered the offer sheet. I don't remember for how long, but if you go into the archives on this board, you'll see there was a lot of discussion, and no shortage of either enthusiasm or skepticism.

As for gaining a long term affection for Bledsoe, I'm already there and I'd wager the same is true for a lot more fans than you're suggesting.

That's a safe wager, since there's no possible way of establishing the fact of the matter one way or the other.

His issues with JM seem to be the only thing that's survived from back then but he never felt fully welcomed by Suns fans. I believe this was generally accepted back then but if you don't remember it that way, feel free to ignore it.

That's my memory too, but I don't see how it's especially relevant to the discussion of Bledsoe.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yes it is but reading between the lines is a required skill around here. If you say a player sucks and some time later you say, he's really good but we ought to trade him for those collectible mugs we all like so much, it would be difficult for me to ignore your earlier words while I contemplated the value of a couple of pewter mugs.

I think we've gone down this path before but I'll go there again. I'd trade Bledsoe for a top notch big man or a young power forward with a high ceiling and a strong likelihood of reaching that ceiling. There aren't very many of them around. I still think we have two near superstars and I'd only willingly part with Bledsoe (or Goran) for talent of a similar level.

If we give up Bledsoe for something like the 10th best power forward, we'll spend the next 10 years secretly hoping that Eric's injuries ruin his career. If he stays healthy, trading him for the 10th best power forward won't likely rival the DJ for Robey deal but it won't be far behind.

I don't have the time this morning but I bet there are some nice players on that list that are still young enough to help the Suns going forward.

 

[WuRaider]

The game was lost in the final 5 mins when Hornacek left Frye in too long instead of bringing back Green. Dudley practiced against Frye a thousand times and knew that he had the advantage on him.

A PO spot is not looking good right now but the momentum can change with a Mavs loss tonight against the clips (Blake, you better not sit this one, *******) and a gut check win for us at Portland tomorrow night.

 

[elindholm]

To my surprise, Hollinger's model still has the Suns at 45% to make the playoffs. I wonder how much they would have jumped if they'd held on to the win last night.

 

[Catlover]

No, actually. I'm not denying that I said that, but I have no memory of it. Do you have a quote? I assume it will be obvious that I was being rhetorical. Or is this another case of your skill at reading between the lines?

Edit: I just did a search on my own name plus either "collectible" or "mugs" and it came up empty, except for this post right here. So, what are you talking about?

Oh my. I guess my dream of taking my comedy routine on the road is dying on the vine. I crafted a fictitious scenario and was surprised that you were going to challenge one part of it as if the rest of it matched reality.

That's a safe wager, since there's no possible way of establishing the fact of the matter one way or the other.

I'm not much of a gambler but "safe wager" sounds like a good place to start. Put another way, I would not choose to wager on anything that is out of my control so if I mention betting it's a safe bet that I've stacked the deck in my favor.

That's my memory too, but I don't see how it's especially relevant to the discussion of Bledsoe.

It probably isn't very relevant although I could see it becoming more so. I think he's more popular than you do but I no longer live in the Valley so I don't have a lot of first hand information to draw from. From the pregame, postgame and halftime shows I've watched it seems to me that he's pretty well thought of by fans and the organization but I might be seeing and hearing what I want to see and hear.

 

[desertdawg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyy50Penbvw

 

[AfroSuns]

Man...not looking good for the Suns. So Clippers play Dallas tonight after expending a lot of energy coming back to beat us yesterday. I wont be shock LAC shoot like crap today.
We are playing the Blazers at home after beating them twice already .........ugh, not looking good

 

[BC867]

Part of why he wanted out was that the Phoenix fans never quite forgave him for not being Paul Westphal. His issues with JM seem to be the only thing that's survived from back then but he never felt fully welcomed by Suns fans.

That was a frustrating time for me as a Suns fan. I rooted for Paul Westphal until he was traded. But I welcomed the addition of Dennis Johnson (as well as Maurice Lucas). Champions! Enforcers. Tough players. Not the traits that most Suns fans were weaned on under Colangelo and MacLeod.

Before I moved from NJ thirty-six years ago, I was a red-hot Knicks fan. Willis Reed/Dave DeBuschere/Dollar Bill Bradley/Walt "Clyde" Frazier/Dick Barnett for the first Championship and Earl "The Pearl" Monroe for the second. What a team!

After moving to the Valley, the first NBA game I saw at the Madhouse on McDowell was the Knicks vs. the Suns. During the first half, I rooted for my Knicks. By the second half, I was rooting for my Suns and have ever since.

I had first visited Phoenix seven years earlier and decided this is where I wanted to spend the rest of my life. With the time difference, it was difficult following the Suns during the interim, but I did as best I could.

How I wish the Suns I have been following for 47 years had the toughness they obtained for a brief period with DJ and Luke. But they just didn't fit in with the Suns.

 

[Superbone]

Also the blatant travel by Barnes right before Paul hit that dagger 3.

That was a TERRIBLE no call. Ball game.

 

[Superbone]

Man...not looking good for the Suns. So Clippers play Dallas tonight after expending a lot of energy coming back to beat us yesterday. I wont be shock LAC shoot like crap today.
We are playing the Blazers at home after beating them twice already .........ugh, not looking good

Bingo! Me-oh-my!

 

[Superbone]

After moving to the Valley, the first NBA game I saw at the Madhouse on McDowell was the Knicks vs. the Suns. During the first half, I rooted for my Knicks. By the second half, I was rooting for my Suns and have ever since.

Ha! That's a great story.