Coaches, mates notice Amaré's expanded game

[Errntknght]

What a disheartening article - the only good news is that he's developed his drive to the left. Well, that and the little snippet saying that Raja Bell is showing standout defense. A three pointer from straight away would be okay because he would get opportunities on the break or stepping out from a P&R, but as Chaplin said, who wants him ever in the corner on purpose.

I don't want him starting drives from further out or dribbling around on the perimeter or even running the show on the break - it might result in great highlights he only has so much energy and it's better spent other ways. Defense & rebounding for starters but even on the offensive end he stresses the whole defense when he faces up at 15 feet.

The team hasn't reaped nearly as much from that fact as they could if his teammates moved and Amare passed to them. I'm not really talking about passing out of a double team - the way to beat the double team is to pass before they can double, which means the team has to have maneuvers that anticipate the double teams. We've seen nothing faintly like this for three years - one of my main complaints about the intelligence of Suns coaches.

I've already pointed out how lacking this team is in any low post or slashing threats and if Amare moves further out that just compounds the problem. What the devil were they thinking? Didn't they know what Amare was working on? I figured he had to be working on a jump hook or something in close because they sure weren't looking for anyone else that could play inside. The team won't be just soft in the middle - it will be a total vacuum.

 

[JCSunsfan]

What a disheartening article - the only good news is that he's developed his drive to the left. Well, that and the little snippet saying that Raja Bell is showing standout defense.

You really have to be an ultimate pessimist to be disheartened by that article. Do you really think that Amare is going to abandon the middle?

Our team has the best young talent in the league--maybe the best player in the league. Good grief already--enjoy it!

 

[Treesquid PhD]

You really have to be an ultimate pessimist to be disheartened by that article. Do you really think that Amare is going to abandon the middle?

Our team has the best young talent in the league--maybe the best player in the league. Good grief already--enjoy it!

Yeah no kidding, a lot of nitpicking fo amare already starting this year.

 

[Errntknght]

JCSunsfan, "Our team has the best young talent in the league--maybe the best player in the league. Good grief already--enjoy it!"

Believe it or not, I have figured out that Amare is close to the best player in the league. If I hadn't I wouldn't be disheartened that he's not being coached toward skills that will maximize his contribution to the success of the team. It bugged me his very first year that his passing game wasn't being brought along because that is a necessary component of maximizing his offensive contribution. Three years now and all this time virtually no progress on that front. I can't fathom why that isn't painful to anyone who understands the team game.

It's a little hard to envision a team that would benefit from Amare developing a perimeter game but it would have to include other players with strong inside games of some kind, at the very least. If that sounds to you like the team the Suns have assembled then I can understand why you are happy about the direction he's going. I see a team so bereft of other inside threats that any movement of Amare toward the perimeter is worse than a waste of time, it's detrimental to the team. It may strike you as strange but I don't find cause to rejoice - except for Amare's left hand move, of course.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

JCSunsfan, "Our team has the best young talent in the league--maybe the best player in the league. Good grief already--enjoy it!"

Believe it or not, I have figured out that Amare is close to the best player in the league. If I hadn't I wouldn't be disheartened that he's not being coached toward skills that will maximize his contribution to the success of the team. It bugged me his very first year that his passing game wasn't being brought along because that is a necessary component of maximizing his offensive contribution. Three years now and all this time virtually no progress on that front. I can't fathom why that isn't painful to anyone who understands the team game.

It's a little hard to envision a team that would benefit from Amare developing a perimeter game but it would have to include other players with strong inside games of some kind, at the very least. If that sounds to you like the team the Suns have assembled then I can understand why you are happy about the direction he's going. I see a team so bereft of other inside threats that any movement of Amare toward the perimeter is worse than a waste of time, it's detrimental to the team. It may strike you as strange but I don't find cause to rejoice - except for Amare's left hand move, of course.

Alot of big mean fall in love with the jumper and it becomes their undoing (side note: speaking of this how about the pick up basket ball phenomenom of choosing a big guy. You pick players based on going for the guys with real size so you can play an inside-outside game. So what happens? 9 times out of 10 you get some 6'5 280 pounder who thinks he should be shooting threes all game and is allergic to rebounding. then i have to take my 5'10 a$$ inside and try to help out. Anyone else experience this multiple times?), but i dont see that with Amare. While a better handle will lead to him taking more people off the dribble, i dont think we have to worry about anyone else leading the league in dunks for awhile. The kid just loves to throw it down, and thats proably my favorite quality about him. I want a big guy who mixes it up. I have seen nothing in his make up that makes me think Amare is going to turn into some sort of Dirk clone........

 

[George O'Brien]

We really are in the "glass is half empty" mode aren't we.

Sarver said Amare had been in two a days workouts most of the summer and one article said that Phil Weber went with Amare to LA duing the video game and TV shootings to help him with his workouts.

I can't see the point if all Amare has been doing all summer is working on his three point shot.

We do know that the "go left" move was something he has been working very hard on. It was amazing how effective he was when everyone knew he could only go right.

There were hints at the start of the off season that he was working on a jump hook. The fact that it hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean he hasn't been working on it.

Most of the rest of the stuff he needs on offense are related to team play such as distribution off the dribble and passing out of double teams. I would expect more attention payed to this during camp.

As for the three... It really depends on how accurate he is. If he can hit only 35%, I'd say don't take it. If he can hit 45%, it could be a useful tactic against packed in defenses.

 

[scotsman13]

you know it is really hard to work on passing when there is only yourself and one other person there. up until the start of training camp you cant work on any team organized drills. so what does that leave amare with on what to spend his time working on over the summer? ball handling, shooting, and then what? watching videos but after that he doesnt have many things he can work on one on one with a coach. so how about we give him a little brake, remember he is only 23 and is working his ass off as is before we bitch that he isnt doing what it takes to be successful.

 

[elindholm]

you know it is really hard to work on passing when there is only yourself and one other person there.

Of course you can work on passing drills by yourself. How do you think the great point guards have honed their skills? You set up targets, practice technique, whatever.

That's like saying you can't work on your reading skills if there's no one to listen to your speech. Hmm, could be something to that...

I never said Stoudemire hasn't worked on passing this summer. For all I know he has. All I said was that it's a critical part of his game to develop.

 

[fordronken]

Of course you can work on passing drills by yourself. How do you think the great point guards have honed their skills? You set up targets, practice technique, whatever.

That's like saying you can't work on your reading skills if there's no one to listen to your speech. Hmm, could be something to that...

I never said Stoudemire hasn't worked on passing this summer. For all I know he has. All I said was that it's a critical part of his game to develop.

I'd understand if there was somebody Amare could to talk to about developing a passing game by himself. But who? I mean, it's not like um...well...uh...Steve Nash is on the team or anything.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm just not that concerned about Amare's passing. In fact, my fear is that if he thought he was good at it, he might do it more. The situations that force most other big men to pass the ball, are slam dunk opportunities for Amare.

Amare shot 56% percent from the field last year. When the ball is in Amare's hands, the highest percentage shot available will most likely be the shot that he takes.

The kid was double-teamed all year long and still scored at a 56% rate, and he was not the first option on the break.

Worrying about Amare's passing is like worrying about Steve Nash's lack of rebounding.

My biggest frustrations in basketball are watching big men pass on high percentage shots and perimeter player force low percentage shots.

Besides, the only way to hone passing skills is to do it in team practices. The only way to do it in the summer is to watch game film and work on ball handling--which he did all summer.

 

[LakeShowMan]

I hope that the Suns have figured out a way to improve Stoudemire's passing vision. He is going to be routinely double-teamed this season, and sometimes he'll be able to force his way through it, but other times he won't. If the Magic Pass Fairy came along and gave Stoudemire the same skill in this department that Chris Webber has, he'd get five assists per game easily and would become an even more fearsome offensive weapon.

Thats usually the last thing to come for big men. Some are born with the ability to find the open man, mostly though it is a neccesity after the player becomes 'unguardable'.

Shaq in his first few years was very turnover prone, and didn't handle double teams well. However, as he got more comfortable on the block and saw more schemes to try and defend him, he bacame a much better passer. Now, he is as good as there is as a passing big man (although most people don't give him the credit he deserves). It is a lot like QBs in the NFL. Early on the defensive schemes are very confusing, with more experience the reads come a lot easier and they are more likely to find the open man.

Countless great big men went through the same process. Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, all became much better passers with the more experience they got. If Amare is as serious about improving his game as it seems he is, I have no doubt that it will come with time.

 

[zett]

If I hadn't I wouldn't be disheartened that he's not being coached toward skills that will maximize his contribution to the success of the team. It bugged me his very first year that his passing game wasn't being brought along because that is a necessary component of maximizing his offensive contribution. Three years now and all this time virtually no progress on that front. I can't fathom why that isn't painful to anyone who understands the team game.

This must be why he struggles so much on offense why even pass if they cant stop you from scoring. Errnt I'm glad your not on the coaching staff

 

[George O'Brien]

Amare is not unstoppable. Put three tall guys on him and he struggles.

Seriously, Amare forced some shots when he shouldn't have and teams doubled without any real fear of getting hurt.

IMHO, too much attention is put into kickout passes from the double and not enough on hitting cutters. Given a choice, most teams would happily have the ball kicked out and take their chances than have Amare crush another dunk. But if he could get the ball to Marion cutting to the basket the effect would be very just as exciting.

 

[elindholm]

Seriously, Amare forced some shots when he shouldn't have and teams doubled without any real fear of getting hurt.

Correct. Teams will find a way to force Stoudemire to give up the ball this year. They have no choice.

IMHO, too much attention is put into kickout passes from the double and not enough on hitting cutters.

Thus the concept of "interior passing."

 

[George O'Brien]

IMHO, too much attention is put into kickout passes from the double and not enough on hitting cutters.

Thus the concept of "interior passing."

Yeh, that's the ticket.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The question is whether teams will try to double Amare off the ball (is that even legal?). He rarely does that Barkley number where he stands there bouncing the ball. Amare usually receives and goes to the rim before the opposition has opportunity to react with a double team.

I am not worried about this.

 

[Errntknght]

Zett, "This must be why he struggles so much on offense why even pass if they cant stop you from scoring."

There are 100-110 games in a very successful season and it would be wonderful if Amare could have ten very successful seasons from here on out. Scoring the way Amare does is hard work and he takes a beating. Wouldn't you guess that he is going to be a target for even more punishment as his career unfolds? Who but a total idiot would want him to take more of a beating than necessary?

I've written about dozen posts this summer about Amare passing the ball. The two man game with KT is one though I don't explicitly mention the passing. Eric's example in this thread of passing to Marion cutting on the baseline is a specific case of what I wrote about in several posts. I even wrote one about how Amare would operate with a low post player, a key element of that was Amare feeding the post.

When Amare makes a pass he avoids most of the punishment he'd get if he scored and he saves energy as well, for later in the game. The best part is that if he passes well other players score and it makes it harder for opponents to concentrate on him - ergo less punishment when he does go to the hoop. A nice side effect is that the other player feels better and will probably play a tiny bit better.

If Amare can function efficiently as a distributor of the ball some of the time then there is less pressure on Nash - he isn't working quite as hard when he is on the floor and likely he wouldn't have to play quite as much. Stupid as I am, I can see the benefit of that.


Zett, "Errnt I'm glad your not on the coaching staff "

I can well understand you feeling that way.


JCSunsfan, "The question is whether teams will try to double Amare off the ball (is that even legal?)."

Yes, it is. For many years it was not allowed but now the only defensive limitation is that you cannot stay in the paint for 3 seconds unless you are guarding someone - being within arms length, in effect.

I don't think there is any question other teams will try to deny Amare the ball and they will very likely double him briefly during the P&R to keep him from making his roll to the hoop. Dallas took that approach and it resulted in Nash getting into the paint very frequently. He made them pay with his scoring but it was much more wearing on him. Hopefully, the coaching is staff is alert to the possibility of teams adopting that strategy and are working on counter-maneuvers.

 

[Joe Mama]

Scoring against double teams might be more taxing on Amare than going one-on-1, but he hardly looked tired from it. Of course that could be because he was resting on the other end of the court too often.

Honestly, I think some of you look for things to complain about. I disagree with notion that Amare could have been working on his passing game by himself already. What a waste of time. What is he going to set up one of those point guard challenge obstacle courses, so he knows how to throw a perfect bounce pass? He's much better off using that time to work on his own offensive moves and shooting and watching video to help his defense and passing skills.

When he joins the rest of the team he can work hard on his passing and defense.

There's no doubt in my mind that if the coaching staff shows Amare where he needs to pass the ball and when you will get it done and learn quickly to do it well. The bigger challenge (I know Ernnknght will love this) will be getting the other players around Amare to make those cuts and tear themselves away from the three-point line every once in awhile.

I believe this team will still average over 108 points per game, but this year they will hold opponents to under 100.

I'm just not that concerned about Amare's passing. In fact, my fear is that if he thought he was good at it, he might do it more. The situations that force most other big men to pass the ball, are slam dunk opportunities for Amare.

Amare shot 56% percent from the field last year. When the ball is in Amare's hands, the highest percentage shot available will most likely be the shot that he takes.

The kid was double-teamed all year long and still scored at a 56% rate, and he was not the first option on the break.

Worrying about Amare's passing is like worrying about Steve Nash's lack of rebounding.

My biggest frustrations in basketball are watching big men pass on high percentage shots and perimeter player force low percentage shots.

Besides, the only way to hone passing skills is to do it in team practices. The only way to do it in the summer is to watch game film and work on ball handling--which he did all summer.

amen. There's a reason teams were unsuccessful double teaming Amare Stoudemire last year. When they did his teammates kill them. The Phoenix Suns may have lost Joe Johnson and Quentin Richardson, but they still have a bunch of guys that can score around Amare. Besides, double teaming doesn't even stop Amare most the time. I would hate to see him getting pass happy.

Joe Mama

 

[Errntknght]

I think I'm beginning to understand the problem here. When I say I want Amare to pass I do not mean that he should necessesarily score less - I want him to be a major hub of the offense and handle the ball more!

Now if it did turn out that the coaches designed sets/manuevers that aimed at that and the players made the cuts and screens that made it work with the result that the whole offense was so potent that Amare needed to score only half as much I'd be elated.

That's a huge 'if' but would anyone (pulling for the Suns) in their right mind not like it? I don't envision that happening but I do think the team can move in that direction - and the more the better. If you disagree with the whole I idea, then we can agree to disagree and let it go at that. I really didn't imagine anyone would disagree and I jumped into talking about how to make it happen - without making the overall idea that clear.

I do understand that there can be other points of view on the matter. One may think that there is no way Amare could pass well enough so my idea is sheer fantasy. Or that it's too complicated to ever work so it's a waste of time. Perhaps even that it's going to be so hard to get Amare the ball that he needs to try to score every time he does get it. I haven't heard such arguments but maybe that's what people are thinking.

But concerns that Amare might become so pass happy that he hurts the team - I'll be nice and credit those who voiced them with a good sense of humor.

Then there are people who mainly enjoy players going in head to head confrontations and don't want to see Amare wasting any time or energy doing or learning anything else. Everyone is entitled to take what they want from entertainments like basketball - I want the sport to grow so I am glad for fans of any type. If that's your feeling I have no problem with you stating it outright but it does bother me when you quote Amare's statistics as though I was not aware of them. Good grief, already - it's the fact that he's such a threat with the ball in his hands that I want him to parley that into more points for the team by passing the ball some of the time. I may be wrong about the effect it would have on the team if he tried but that's another issue - and one that can be argued on its merits.

I didn't bring up the idea of Amare practicing passing this past summer but I certainly support it. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that every basketball player should regularly do passing drills - IMO, probably nothing else would improve the overall game as much as that. I was surprised to see what shoddy passing was displayed in that competition at the All Star game. It looked like Nash won it by default.

Even the venerable bounce pass is worthy of practice - it's trajectory can be controlled via spin put on the ball. Every player should at least be able to use back and forward spin so the ball bounces up to easily catchable height.

Joe, "The bigger challenge (I know Ernnknght will love this) will be getting the other players around Amare to make those cuts and tear themselves away from the three-point line every once in awhile."

You are quite right. Though there is a bigger challenge yet, IMO - getting our coaches to think in terms of using player movement that way. I think the wealth of experienced players we have coming in is our best hope - they surely know how to do it and will occasionally do so out of habit. Our coaches will see it and seize upon it. And everyone thinks I never give our coaches any credit. Heck, I'm even betting we'll see off ball screens by someone other than Nash. KT and Horace could do it in their sleep.

 

[playstation]

bump

nothing has changed since october 4th in terms of where we expect to be