Coaching matters.

[elindholm]

So, seriously, does anyone think that the Pistons would have won this year if Mike D'Antoni had been their coach?

When you watch them play, what's clear is that their success is built on a lot more than just athleticism and defense. They know how to pass, they know how to look for each other, they know how to communicate.

Does Larry Brown shrug his shoulders and say, "Well, you can't really work on much during the season, because there isn't time"? I doubt it. Rasheed Wallace came over just a few months ago and was promptly converted into a championship player. Prince improved steadily throughout the season -- not just in individual ways, but as a teammate. The list goes on.

D'Antoni might be a fine coach, but he's clearly not world-class. That may not matter for the next few years, but it will matter sooner or later.

 

[devilalum]

So, seriously, does anyone think that the Pistons would have won this year if Mike D'Antoni had been their coach?

When you watch them play, what's clear is that their success is built on a lot more than just athleticism and defense. They know how to pass, they know how to look for each other, they know how to communicate.

Does Larry Brown shrug his shoulders and say, "Well, you can't really work on much during the season, because there isn't time"? I doubt it. Rasheed Wallace came over just a few months ago and was promptly converted into a championship player. Prince improved steadily throughout the season -- not just in individual ways, but as a teammate. The list goes on.

D'Antoni might be a fine coach, but he's clearly not world-class. That may not matter for the next few years, but it will matter sooner or later.

LArry Brown is not God. The reason he's couched so many teams is that he usually wears out his welcome pretty fast.

In the past he's also been a lot more involved in personel decisions, which he wasn't very successful with. Everything just came together this year.

I know it will never happen but I would like to see the Suns focus on defense. Recruit the right players and get a defensive minded coach. Maybe when Jerry finally gives up control Sarver might go in this direction.

 

[fordronken]

Larry Brown has also coached a little longer than Mike D'Antoni. And it did take Brown a little while to win this sucker.

 

[elindholm]

LArry Brown is not God.

No, he's not. But then, neither is Mike D'Antoni, so I'm not sure what difference that makes. I wasn't trying to argue that one was God, only that one is a better coach.

The reason he's couched so many teams is that he usually wears out his welcome pretty fast.

Sure, because he insists on doing things his way. This time, he got players to buy into it and had success, but other times he hasn't been so lucky. People with highly controlling personalities aren't right for every situation, but again, that's not what I was talking about.

If you watch the Pistons, you can see them do things that had to be worked on in practice -- there's just no way that the team skills could have been picked up by accident. Do you ever see the Suns do something that you know had to be "taught"? No, instead you see something very simple like "where is the pick-and-roll going to be set up" or "are we going to double-team so-and-so?" The difference between that and real coaching is night and day, as this series showed.

 

[sly fly]

Not sure why this has turned into the bash Mike D thread??

The guy has one year under his belt in PHX, and he's being thrown under the bus.

Larry Brown is a great coach. No one disputes that.

Mike D AT LEAST deserves an ample amount of time to put his identity on this club.

 

[NickelBack]

The reason he's couched so many teams is that he usually wears out his welcome pretty fast.

What?!?

Larry Brown always leaves town before he wears out his welcome.

 

[elindholm]

I'm not bashing D'Antoni so much as trying to make the case that coaching matters, in ways other than being friendly with the players and having a vague idea how to "develop" young talent.

The Suns haven't had a real coach in so long (ever?), that I think there is a strong tendency for Suns fans to discount the importance of a coach in terms of actual game preparation. And when you watch a lot of teams in the league, frankly it's not that easy see exactly what the coach's influence is. But with Detroit, you can tell. All I'm saying is that it matters.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

LArry Brown is not God. The reason he's couched so many teams is that he usually wears out his welcome pretty fast.

Really?? I thought he has coached so many teams because he has been in the NBA for 22 years now. He has to average around 5 years a team, which is a very large number........


Larry Brown demands the best out of his players. He wants them to work his way. Players usually buy into it, but after a while they tend to want the glory. Once players start refusing to sacrifice their stats for the better of the team, LB gets sick of it. Not really a bad thing if you ask me......

 

[F-Dog]

I'm not bashing D'Antoni so much as trying to make the case that coaching matters, in ways other than being friendly with the players and having a vague idea how to "develop" young talent.

The Suns haven't had a real coach in so long (ever?), that I think there is a strong tendency for Suns fans to discount the importance of a coach in terms of actual game preparation. And when you watch a lot of teams in the league, frankly it's not that easy see exactly what the coach's influence is. But with Detroit, you can tell. All I'm saying is that it matters.

From the quotes I've read, the Phoenix players seem to consider game preparation to be one of D'Antoni's strengths. And even from the little I've seen so far, D'Antoni's game coaching was a major improvement over Frank Johnson's.


Will you be telling us that the Suns need to sign Rasheed Wallace this summer, too?

 

[sly fly]

I'm not bashing D'Antoni so much as trying to make the case that coaching matters, in ways other than being friendly with the players and having a vague idea how to "develop" young talent.

The Suns haven't had a real coach in so long (ever?), that I think there is a strong tendency for Suns fans to discount the importance of a coach in terms of actual game preparation. And when you watch a lot of teams in the league, frankly it's not that easy see exactly what the coach's influence is. But with Detroit, you can tell. All I'm saying is that it matters.

I do agree that Larry Brown kicked the snot out of PJ this series. Where were the adjustments?

If I was PJ...

- I'm going ZONE D.
- Bench Payton (Faded faster than Anna Kournakova)

Alas, PJ probably had no chance. The Lakers bench is/was awful. Not much you can do if that's the case. Especially, when a team like Detroit is throwing different looks at you every time down the floor.

Back to Mike D. Let's judge him when he gets HIS team on the floor. Under HIS training camp. And, for a full season that will include highs and lows. Then, when HIS team gets to the playoffs... we can all sit here and tell him what he should do. Let's hope that happens.

 

[elindholm]

From the quotes I've read, the Phoenix players seem to consider game preparation to be one of D'Antoni's strengths.

I've heard that too. But remember that these are players who have had almost no coaching in their careers. It's not like D'Antoni came in and impressed savvy veterans. His big claim to fame so far is that he's better than Frank Johnson.

Back to Mike D. Let's judge him when he gets HIS team on the floor. Under HIS training camp.

Sure, let's wait until next year and see if it gets better. I have no problem with that. Like I say, I wasn't setting out to tear down D'Antoni.

 

[BradMannTX]

Was Cotton not a real coach? Was John MacLeod not a REAL coach? There's your answer to "how long." Because I know you don't mean intend to imply "rings equal coach." If so, Larry Brown isn't a real coach...well, I guess he is now.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

From the quotes I've read, the Phoenix players seem to consider game preparation to be one of D'Antoni's strengths.

I've heard that too. But remember that these are players who have had almost no coaching in their careers. It's not like D'Antoni came in and impressed savvy veterans. His big claim to fame so far is that he's better than Frank Johnson.

Remember when Marbury claimed he wouldn't play for anyone other than FJ??

I have a feeling that Mike gets along with the players, has their attention and respect for the moment, so they will speak well about him. That simple.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Was Cotton not a real coach? Was John MacLeod not a REAL coach? There's your answer to "how long." Because I know you don't mean intend to imply "rings equal coach." If so, Larry Brown isn't a real coach...well, I guess he is now.

12-13 years is a pretty long time. I mean that would be 1/3 of the franchise's history............

 

[George O'Brien]

They used to talk about "different horses for different courses" and I think it is that way with coaches. Don Nelson is one of the most successful coaches in the NBA (except in the playoffs ) but he was an absolute disaster when he was asked to coach the Knicks. George Karl has had great success, but was hopeless when coaching the Warriors.

Usually it takes even a top coach a few years get the right kind of players for his system and get everyone on the same page. The exceptions are generally when a coach inherits an outstanding team to begin with and doesn't have to make that many changes.

Let's be honest, as great a job Larry Brown did in Detroit, can anyone say Rick Carlisle might not have had the same success if HE had Sheed? Rick's team had more success against the Pistons than the Lakers did.

It's very hard to judge D'Antoni's performance because he did not exactly take over a division championship team. The Pistons were already a very good defensive team before Brown and Sheed, so Larry did not have to teach them how to play defense. The Suns are not a very good defensive team, so the task is much greater.

 

[cly2tw]

I'd give DA the benefit of doubt.

Even when Skiles was here, the only one reliable defender we had, who could keep his man in front of him, was Cliff. Our defense was famed for being 'scrapping' or 'disrupting', a style that could get you some wins in the regular season when the players ain't as sharp or concentrated as in the playoffs. It costs you a lot of energy and rather easy to beat with enough care with the ball, and thus won't get you deep in the playoffs. Didn't we want to play the honest-to-the-earth man-to-man defense of the Pistons? We did have the personells for it! Marion and Kidd can't stay in front of most of their counterparts, neither could an inexperienced Barbosa or injured Eisley. (Marbury was a very good defender the year we were in the playoffs with him!)

So, the 'scrapping', gambling-for-steal defense was out of necessity, as simple as that!

 

[George O'Brien]

I'd give DA the benefit of doubt.

Even when Skiles was here, the only one reliable defender we had, who could keep his man in front of him, was Cliff. Our defense was famed for being 'scrapping' or 'disrupting', a style that could get you some wins in the regular season when the players ain't as sharp or concentrated as in the playoffs. It costs you a lot of energy and rather easy to beat with enough care with the ball, and thus won't get you deep in the playoffs. Didn't we want to play the honest-to-the-earth man-to-man defense of the Pistons? We did have the personells for it! Marion and Kidd can't stay in front of most of their counterparts, neither could an inexperienced Barbosa or injured Eisley. (Marbury was a very good defender the year we were in the playoffs with him!)

So, the 'scrapping', gambling-for-steal defense was out of necessity, as simple as that!

The defense under Skiles was vastly better than under FJ, but I agree with your main point. You can't win deep in the playoffs without a solid defense where every player does his job.

In some ways the Suns scramble defense was as much about their offensive problems as their defensive problems. Great defensive teams generally have fairly efficient half court offenses. If you rely on steals to score, it is likely you will give up a higher percentage of shots on the other end when the gambles fail.

This is one of the reasons I am not willing to pass judgement on Marion's ability to play defense. While I question whether he has been drilled at proper footwork, I think think he has constantly been pushed for steals while also left to cover an area when other players are doubling. Price does not get as many steals as Marion, at least partly because he isn't asked to.

In any case, I don't see the Suns getting very far until they learn to play defense and focus on getting players who play defense.

 

[SunsTzu]

Remember when Marbury claimed he wouldn't play for anyone other than FJ??

I honestly don't remember this at all. The most positive thing I remember Marbury saying about FJ was that he was willing to listen to his players, since Marbury convinced him to scrap that awful triangle-like offense he tried to implement.

 

[cly2tw]

While I question whether he has been drilled at proper footwork, I think think he has constantly been pushed for steals while also left to cover an area when other players are doubling.

Here lies the root of the problem! If you are drilled to do something for long enough, you get into an habit and it's difficult to get out of it. Also, with the proper footwork you mentioned, you could equally well cover an area, by default. Don't ya think so? With proper footwork, you could also gamble better at stealing the balls, if it's the way the coach wants you to play, right? Just some food for thought.

 

[Errntknght]

Eric, "So, seriously, does anyone think that the Pistons would have won this year if Mike D'Antoni had been their coach?"

Not a chance. Of course, there's no chance Dumars would have hired him either. But LB didn't do it all himself - Dumars did a first rate job putting the team together and Carlisle deserves an assist for the job he did the last couple of years teaching the team to defend.


"D'Antoni might be a fine coach, but he's clearly not world-class. That may not matter for the next few years, but it will matter sooner or later."

D'Antoni is not NBA class. Just look what he did on defense last year - he had the team practicing, I presume, a half court trap and heavy double teaming since they played that way in games. Neither one worked worth a plugged nickel, but that's not the worst of it - what he should have been doing is working on the basics of man-to-man! I've never seen such poor weakside help and area defense around the basket. That is not 'fine coaching'... that's idiotic coaching. If he doesn't get serious help with the defensive coaching, I wouldn't expect much improvement after having a full training camp.

Personally, I hope he goes it alone and quickly demonstrates that he is not fit to coach in the NBA because every day counts. If he hangs around two more years the chances of keeping the core together long enough for a decent coach to undo all the bad habits and get the guys playing as a team under a reasonable system is very low. With any luck, he'll take BC down with him after one more year.

 

[Joe Mama]

Joe Dumars did a fantastic job putting that Detroit Pistons team together. He also has set them up to keep the team together for a few more years if Rasheed Wallace does the logical thing and stays (not a given). That said, there is one other person that deserves a lot of credit for Detroit's success in the playoffs. That is Danny Ainge. Without his help the Pistons would not have been able to acquire Rasheed Wallace. That trade really did not make much sense for the Celtics, and it had many of the other Eastern Conference general managers up in arms.

Joe Mama

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I honestly don't remember this at all. The most positive thing I remember Marbury saying about FJ was that he was willing to listen to his players, since Marbury convinced him to scrap that awful triangle-like offense he tried to implement.

It was after a game in the 2002-2003 season. He said he didn't want to play for anyone but FJ.

 

[George O'Brien]

Here lies the root of the problem! If you are drilled to do something for long enough, you get into an habit and it's difficult to get out of it. Also, with the proper footwork you mentioned, you could equally well cover an area, by default. Don't ya think so? With proper footwork, you could also gamble better at stealing the balls, if it's the way the coach wants you to play, right? Just some food for thought.

Steals usually come from "playing the passing lanes" rather focusing on keeping the opponent in front of him. Those steals require making a committment to leave position to get the ball.

Obviously that doesn't apply to steals that come from batting the ball away from a guy who is dribbling along the sideline or taking a ball from someone who made a rebound but didn't cover up properly. None the less, I think most of Marion's steals have come from playing the passing lanes which is part of their defensive scheme.

 

[hcsilla]

I completely agree with everything what elindholm said in this thread.

 

[hcsilla]

That said, there is one other person that deserves a lot of credit for Detroit's success in the playoffs. That is Danny Ainge. Without his help the Pistons would not have been able to acquire Rasheed Wallace. That trade really did not make much sense for the Celtics, and it had many of the other Eastern Conference general managers up in arms.

Joe Mama

That is true too. Ainge was that simp who helped Dumars with taking of Atkins' contract for a late 1st rounder.