Combine Aftermath: DBs Blaze and Questions at the Top

Mitch

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Monday's showcase of the DBs was pure fireworks -- a grand finale galore ---so fast, colorful,and furious.

The fact is -- these DBs player after player absolutely blew away the WRs and RBs -- it used to be the opposite, but thanks to superb and popular CBs such as Darrell Revis, Richard Sherman and Patrick Peterson -- CB is the new sexy -- and the younger generation has taken notice.

What does this mean when DB are running 4.3s and 4.4s and WRs are running 4.4s and 4.5s? It means that getting open in the NFL is becoming more and more difficult. Which means that drafting WRs is becoming more and more difficult because GMs and HCs have to be able to picture whether a WR can gain consistent separation in tight coverage.

This is one of the major reasons why BA, after watching John Ross run a 4.22, wrote a note to himself and stuffed it in his pocket.

This is another reason why one of the most prolific pass catchers in this draft, Cooper Kupp, likely dropped from the early to mid second round to the third or fourth round because he ran a 4.6.

It also likely means that one of the best ballhawking CBs, **** Tabor, dropped from a possible to 15 pick to a Day 2 pick, because he ran a 4.6.

The top of the draft board is becoming more and more muddled with each passing day.

* DE Myles Garrett flashed freakish physical skills that likely wrapped up the #1 pick, and yet scouts must be scratching their heads as to why he only had 3 sacks this season versus SEC opponents. His lower leg injury was an issue, that's for sure. But he looks well healed at the right time.

* DT Jonathan Allen was diagnosed with arthritis in his shoulders. And when you watch his playing style, it is no wonder because his lower body generates a tremendous burst which thrusts his upper body forward in such a way that he lunges his way through contact into the backfield. He is what he is --- a full tilt bull rusher.

* S Malik Hooker, while possessing all-world range, speed and anticipation, is facing three surgeries for sports heinous and a bum shoulder.

* LB Reuben Foster not only disgraced himself by getting thrown out of the Combine, scouts are concerned about his history of concussions -- which may account for why he does not consistently wrap up on his tackles. In college he could get away with knocking RBs down -- in the NFL he is going to have to hit and wrap or he will get bounced.

* WRs Corey Davis and Mike Williams -- injured and/or tired from a long season. Both have to answer the doubters about their speed and ability to gain separation in the NFL.

* WR John Ross facing shoulder surgery. The 40 record is amazing, but can he hold up physically in the NFL? The Alabama CBs pressed him big-time and Ross was a non-factor in the national semi-finals.

* DE Derek Barnett coming down with the flu and not putting on the show that was expected.

* OLB Takkarist McKinley is facing shoulder surgery. Had he been healthy he might have skyrocketed up draft boards, possible into the top 15.

* RB Leonard Fournette has a chronic ankle problem which could require surgery. While he still ran a 4.5, he looked like he was laboring more than usual.

* CB Marshon Lattimore looked like he solidified a spot in the top 10 with a 4.36 40, but tweaked his hamstring (he says hip flexor -- but -- he knows that teams are aware of the hamstring issues that kept him on the sidelines off and on his first two years at OSU)

The list goes on...

For me...my hope for the Cardinals at #13 hinge on 4 players:

RB/WR/PR/KR Christian McCaffrey (whom I worry the Saints will take at #11, which is one of the reasons why they are trading Brandin Cooks -- he is a top 3 RB and top 3 WR in this draft class and a top 3 punt returner)

OLB/ILB/SS Haason Reddick (I like him better for the Cardinals than Reuben Foster because he's a better blitzer, a more fundamental tackler and more skilled cover guy -- and he can play inside or outside or even at SS)

G/T/C Forrest Lamp (the Nick Martin comparisons are legit and if the Cardinals do not sign a FA G, Lamp would make prefect sense -- plus he can play T and C)

SS/CB/FS/PR Jabrill Peppers (assuming Hooker and Adams are taken -- with Tony Jefferson likely moving on and with the way the Cardinals use the SS to blitz, force the run and cover, Peppers could be dynamic in that role, plus he is an electrifying punt returner -- instant upgrade on STs)

While I love the DBs --- this draft is so deep that at #45 or even at #77 the Cardinals could still select a top 40 talent.

Versatility and superior athleticism are just what the Cardinals need --- not only on offense and defense, but especially on STs.

When the NFL Network did their Combine recap at the start of the show last night -- the first two names highlighted and raved about were McCaffrey and Reddick. In today's NFL you need flexible players who win you key matchups on both side of the ball. You also, as the Cardinals sadly learned last year, need to win close games by playing superb special teams. These ballers can get it done in multiple ways, donning Cardinal red and milk white.
 
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Southpaw

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Nick Saban flat wears out his players with grueling practices , which every scout/GM is aware of. They come damaged. The blow up hits by D takes its toll on the hitters.

Really like your overall analysis but have difficulty with your blazing CB/Safety speed trumps WR speed theory. It will always be about route running and separation. Speed will cover go routes and stretching the D plays, but guys like Kupp can thrive with routes and timing.
 
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Mitch

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Nick Saban flat wears out his players with grueling practices , which every scout/GM is aware of. They come damaged. The blow up hits by D takes its toll on the hitters.

Really like your overall analysis but have difficulty with your blazing CB/Safety speed trumps WR speed theory. It will always be about route running and separation. Speed will cover go routes and stretching the D plays, but guys like Kupp can thrive with routes and timing.

I think Kupp will be a good, solid NFL #3 WR. Possibly a #2 in the right system, like the Patriots'. But, it would be surprising if he is taken in the 2nd round. Hey, it might give us a chance at #77 if he is high on Keim's board.
 
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Mitch

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We're not drafting McCaffrey in the 1st round. It's not going to happen, nor should it.

You might be surprised. Much will depend on FA. Being able to draft a dynamic RB/WR/PR all in one player is very enticing. Plus, he fits BA&SK's profile (gym rats---first guy in, last to leave---passion for the game---high character/leadership) to a tee.
 
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Monday's showcase of the DBs was pure fireworks -- a grand finale galore ---so fast, colorful,and furious.

The fact is -- these DBs player after player absolutely blew away the WRs and RBs -- it used to be the opposite, but thanks to superb and popular CBs such as Darrell Revis, Richard Sherman and Patrick Peterson -- CB is the new sexy -- and the younger generation has taken notice.

What does this mean when DB are running 4.3s and 4.4s and WRs are running 4.4s and 4.5s? It means that getting open in the NFL is becoming more and more difficult. Which means that drafting WRs is becoming more and more difficult because GMs and HCs have to be able to picture whether a WR can gain consistent separation in tight coverage.

This is one of the major reasons why BA, after watching John Ross run a 4.22, wrote a note to himself and stuffed it in his pocket.

This is another reason why one of the most prolific pass catchers in this draft, Cooper Kupp, likely dropped from the early to mid second round to the third or fourth round because he ran a 4.6.

It also likely means that one of the best ballhawking CBs, **** Tabor, dropped from a possible to 15 pick to a Day 2 pick, because he ran a 4.6.

The top of the draft board is becoming more and more muddled with each passing day.

* DE Myles Garrett flashed freakish physical skills that likely wrapped up the #1 pick, and yet scouts must be scratching their heads as to why he only had 3 sacks this season versus SEC opponents. His lower leg injury was an issue, that's for sure. But he looks well healed at the right time.

* DT Jonathan Allen was diagnosed with arthritis in his shoulders. And when you watch his playing style, it is no wonder because his lower body generates a tremendous burst which thrusts his upper body forward in such a way that he lunges his way through contact into the backfield. He is what he is --- a full tilt bull rusher.

* S Malik Hooker, while possessing all-world range, speed and anticipation, is facing three surgeries for sports heinous and a bum shoulder.

* LB Reuben Foster not only disgraced himself by getting thrown out of the Combine, scouts are concerned about his history of concussions -- which may account for why he does not consistently wrap up on his tackles. In college he could get away with knocking RBs down -- in the NFL he is going to have to hit and wrap or he will get bounced.

* WRs Corey Davis and Mike Williams -- injured and/or tired from a long season. Both have to answer the doubters about their speed and ability to gain separation in the NFL.

* WR John Ross facing shoulder surgery. The 40 record is amazing, but can he hold up physically in the NFL? The Alabama CBs pressed him big-time and Ross was a non-factor in the national semi-finals.

* DE Derek Barnett coming down with the flu and not putting on the show that was expected.

* OLB Takkarist McKinley is facing shoulder surgery. Had he been healthy he might have skyrocketed up draft boards, possible into the top 15.

* RB Leonard Fournette has a chronic ankle problem which could require surgery. While he still ran a 4.5, he looked like he was laboring more than usual.

* CB Marshon Lattimore looked like he solidified a spot in the top 10 with a 4.36 40, but tweaked his hamstring (he says hip flexor -- but -- he knows that teams are aware of the hamstring issues that kept him on the sidelines off and on his first two years at OSU)

The list goes on...

For me...my hope for the Cardinals at #13 hinge on 4 players:

RB/WR/PR/KR Christian McCaffrey (whom I worry the Saints will take at #11, which is one of the reasons why they are trading Brandin Cooks -- he is a top 3 RB and top 3 WR in this draft class and a top 3 punt returner)

OLB/ILB/SS Haason Reddick (I like him better for the Cardinals than Reuben Foster because he's a better blitzer, a more fundamental tackler and more skilled cover guy -- and he can play inside or outside or even at SS)

G/T/C Forrest Lamp (the Nick Martin comparisons are legit and if the Cardinals do not sign a FA G, Lamp would make prefect sense -- plus he can play T and C)

SS/CB/FS/PR Jabrill Peppers (assuming Hooker and Adams are taken -- with Tony Jefferson likely moving on and with the way the Cardinals use the SS to blitz, force the run and cover, Peppers could be dynamic in that role, plus he is an electrifying punt returner -- instant upgrade on STs)

While I love the DBs --- this draft is so deep that at #45 or even at #77 the Cardinals could still select a top 40 talent.

Versatility and superior athleticism are just what the Cardinals need --- not only on offense and defense, but especially on STs.

When the NFL Network did their Combine recap at the start of the show last night -- the first two names highlighted and raved about were McCaffrey and Reddick. In today's NFL you need flexible players who win you key matchups on both side of the ball. You also, as the Cardinals sadly learned last year, need to win close games by playing superb special teams. These ballers can get it done in multiple ways, donning Cardinal red and milk white.
Who do you like for the Cardinals today? It is still real early, just interested who you like in the first three round? Arizona will have a good deffense early in the season, and then great at the end. I have ROSS going to the Eagles. Perfect Post Mitch! Thank you
 

Cardiac

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I don't necessarily disagree with your top 4 choices Mitch but I would prefer we trade down before picking any of those are our pick.

Such a deep draft I'm in favor of trading down anyway unless a blue chipper falls to us at 13.
 

Southpaw

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I don't necessarily disagree with your top 4 choices Mitch but I would prefer we trade down before picking any of those are our pick.

Such a deep draft I'm in favor of trading down anyway unless a blue chipper falls to us at 13.
Which would question why other teams would trade up in the "deep draft".
 

Cardiac

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Which would question why other teams would trade up in the "deep draft".

Yep, but it happens pretty much in every draft. Is there a run on so so QB's and the last one is sitting there at 13? Maybe a team has Ross rated as a can't miss and needs a WR desperately. Oline is thin in this draft so maybe .......
 

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You might be surprised. Much will depend on FA. Being able to draft a dynamic RB/WR/PR all in one player is very enticing. Plus, he fits BA&SK's profile (gym rats---first guy in, last to leave---passion for the game---high character/leadership) to a tee.

I'll grant you your last point, but hybrids aren't usually targeted so high in the draft. I guarantee you we'll draft a player with a solidified position--or a position we will have him penciled in at.
 

Cardiac

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I posted this thought in another thread but it makes more sense in this one so I'll repeat it. With the quantity and quality of the DB's in this draft does it impact FA at all. Can we get Cooper and or T Jefferson easier or cheaper because teams will look to the draft to fill their DB needs?

Will some teams avoid paying typical FA money when they can get similar or better talent in the draft. I know some teams will want to know for sure they have a major hole on their roster filled but will there be enough of those teams to keep the FA $$$$$$$$$$ at their typically inflated rate?
 

Ohcrap75

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Great post Mitch! I'm glad you highlighted all the injuries to the top players. It doesn't mean they won't be able to stay healthy throughout their careers, but a player like Lattimore really concerns me.

I'm an advocate of the Cards focusing on high floor players in the early rounds this year and the guys you highlighted definitely fit that bill! I would also add OJ Howard to that list.

I'm so happy someone else is on the Peppers train with me! I just love this kid!
 

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I'll grant you your last point, but hybrids aren't usually targeted so high in the draft. I guarantee you we'll draft a player with a solidified position--or a position we will have him penciled in at.
MTL, I'd like to have McCaffrey as well, and I think he'll impact three phases of the O, running, receiving and returning in a substantial way.

But many disagree with this view in drafting for need in team building. The bigger impact is in the bigger down the line value of the player. This has been a basic flaw of the Cardinals drafting strategy in recent years. It has gotten a little better under Keim but it's still there.


Mitch, you know the old axiom, CB's are fast smaller receivers who don't catch well.
 
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Russ Smith

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If Foster falls because of that argument it's great for us IMO he's still one of the more logical picks for us.

There are concerns, is he big enough etc but he's bigger than Deonne and he would be a big upgrade for us IMO.

Ross is certainly intriguing, I'm sure that 40 really helped him but if John Brown is back healthy I think the Cards need at WR is not for deep speed but more of a move the chains guy like Corey Davis.
 

az jam

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If Foster falls because of that argument it's great for us IMO he's still one of the more logical picks for us.

There are concerns, is he big enough etc but he's bigger than Deonne and he would be a big upgrade for us IMO.

Ross is certainly intriguing, I'm sure that 40 really helped him but if John Brown is back healthy I think the Cards need at WR is not for deep speed but more of a move the chains guy like Corey Davis.

I heard Kent Somers (Cards beat writer) being interviewed yesterday (Monday). He didn't think Cards would be interested in Ruben Foster because of his size. He is 6 ft 229 lbs per Combine weigh in. Summers felt that it was too similar to Deonne and that they would want someone bigger.
 
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oaken1

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I heard Kent Somers (Cards beat writer) being interviewed yesterday (Monday). He didn't think Cards would be interested in Ruben Foster because of his size. He is 6 ft 229 lbs per Combine weigh in. Summers felt that it was to similar to Deonne and that they would want someone bigger.
That is my position. we already have R. Foster,...we need more size and length at LBer and CB
which is why I like Z. Cunningham at LBer... great length, decent speed and vision, good instincts,..and room to add weight.... he does not blitz well, but he does everything else well.....and we have pass rushers already
foster is not only small, but he already has a history of injuries....any player can get knees and concussions,... but smaller players are more likely to suffer those injuries IMO...

our staff has long said they like players with length... but then they drafted players who were smaller....I am guessing they get back to length this year.
 

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Good hell people...

1-Reuben Foster is the best ILB prospect since Luke Kuechly. He plays all 3 downs, he has size, he can cover, and he has great instincts. LBs can be crazy...it is ok, and in fact, a LB with anger issues is almost preferred. So, this "we already have Reuben Foster on our roster in Deone Bucannon" nonsense is just that, nonsense. Bucannon has been a league average ILB at best so far...

2-Reddick isn't a better prospect in any world than Foster. We have the past 3 years as proof of that. Lets not confuse a spotlighted 3 months over 3 years of tape. That doesn't make Reddick a bad player, or not a fit for the Cards at 13, but it is the truth.

3-Mitch, I respect the work you put in, but you are the only person on the planet who has questions about Myles Garrett.

4-The "if Forrest Lamp is Zach Martin" argument is a slippery slope. You can make the same argument for Deshaun Watson and many other players. My thought is that if Forrest Lamp is the best Kiem can do at 13, he probably needs to be fired.

5-IMO (and it could turn out wrong) you are way over your skis on McCaffrey and Peppers.
-First off, you are comparing Peppers to an UDFA player which is what Tony Jefferson was. Jefferson had to overcome his limitations and develop a game that worked in the NFL. Why would you take a player like Peppers, who has to overcome similar limitations, in the first round?

-Secondly, where is the potential for McCaffrey moving forward that warrants a first round pick? It won't be at RB because he doesn't have the body type for it ala Reggie Bush. It won't be at WR, because he lacks vertical speed vs DBs, wouldn't be a size mismatch, and would then be QB dependent moving forward. That leaves special teams, and a return guy isn't worth a first round pick. I understand that he can do all of these things to a degree, but that isn't a the type of player you build a franchise around which is what first rounders are supposed to be.
 

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Monday's showcase of the DBs was pure fireworks -- a grand finale galore ---so fast, colorful,and furious.

The fact is -- these DBs player after player absolutely blew away the WRs and RBs -- it used to be the opposite, but thanks to superb and popular CBs such as Darrell Revis, Richard Sherman and Patrick Peterson -- CB is the new sexy -- and the younger generation has taken notice.

What does this mean when DB are running 4.3s and 4.4s and WRs are running 4.4s and 4.5s? It means that getting open in the NFL is becoming more and more difficult. Which means that drafting WRs is becoming more and more difficult because GMs and HCs have to be able to picture whether a WR can gain consistent separation in tight coverage.

This is one of the major reasons why BA, after watching John Ross run a 4.22, wrote a note to himself and stuffed it in his pocket.

This is another reason why one of the most prolific pass catchers in this draft, Cooper Kupp, likely dropped from the early to mid second round to the third or fourth round because he ran a 4.6.

It also likely means that one of the best ballhawking CBs, **** Tabor, dropped from a possible to 15 pick to a Day 2 pick, because he ran a 4.6.

The top of the draft board is becoming more and more muddled with each passing day.

* DE Myles Garrett flashed freakish physical skills that likely wrapped up the #1 pick, and yet scouts must be scratching their heads as to why he only had 3 sacks this season versus SEC opponents. His lower leg injury was an issue, that's for sure. But he looks well healed at the right time.

* DT Jonathan Allen was diagnosed with arthritis in his shoulders. And when you watch his playing style, it is no wonder because his lower body generates a tremendous burst which thrusts his upper body forward in such a way that he lunges his way through contact into the backfield. He is what he is --- a full tilt bull rusher.

* S Malik Hooker, while possessing all-world range, speed and anticipation, is facing three surgeries for sports heinous and a bum shoulder.

* LB Reuben Foster not only disgraced himself by getting thrown out of the Combine, scouts are concerned about his history of concussions -- which may account for why he does not consistently wrap up on his tackles. In college he could get away with knocking RBs down -- in the NFL he is going to have to hit and wrap or he will get bounced.

* WRs Corey Davis and Mike Williams -- injured and/or tired from a long season. Both have to answer the doubters about their speed and ability to gain separation in the NFL.

* WR John Ross facing shoulder surgery. The 40 record is amazing, but can he hold up physically in the NFL? The Alabama CBs pressed him big-time and Ross was a non-factor in the national semi-finals.

* DE Derek Barnett coming down with the flu and not putting on the show that was expected.

* OLB Takkarist McKinley is facing shoulder surgery. Had he been healthy he might have skyrocketed up draft boards, possible into the top 15.

* RB Leonard Fournette has a chronic ankle problem which could require surgery. While he still ran a 4.5, he looked like he was laboring more than usual.

* CB Marshon Lattimore looked like he solidified a spot in the top 10 with a 4.36 40, but tweaked his hamstring (he says hip flexor -- but -- he knows that teams are aware of the hamstring issues that kept him on the sidelines off and on his first two years at OSU)

The list goes on...

For me...my hope for the Cardinals at #13 hinge on 4 players:

RB/WR/PR/KR Christian McCaffrey (whom I worry the Saints will take at #11, which is one of the reasons why they are trading Brandin Cooks -- he is a top 3 RB and top 3 WR in this draft class and a top 3 punt returner)

OLB/ILB/SS Haason Reddick (I like him better for the Cardinals than Reuben Foster because he's a better blitzer, a more fundamental tackler and more skilled cover guy -- and he can play inside or outside or even at SS)

G/T/C Forrest Lamp (the Nick Martin comparisons are legit and if the Cardinals do not sign a FA G, Lamp would make prefect sense -- plus he can play T and C)

SS/CB/FS/PR Jabrill Peppers (assuming Hooker and Adams are taken -- with Tony Jefferson likely moving on and with the way the Cardinals use the SS to blitz, force the run and cover, Peppers could be dynamic in that role, plus he is an electrifying punt returner -- instant upgrade on STs)

While I love the DBs --- this draft is so deep that at #45 or even at #77 the Cardinals could still select a top 40 talent.

Versatility and superior athleticism are just what the Cardinals need --- not only on offense and defense, but especially on STs.

When the NFL Network did their Combine recap at the start of the show last night -- the first two names highlighted and raved about were McCaffrey and Reddick. In today's NFL you need flexible players who win you key matchups on both side of the ball. You also, as the Cardinals sadly learned last year, need to win close games by playing superb special teams. These ballers can get it done in multiple ways, donning Cardinal red and milk white.

Those are my top 4 as well Mitch. In terms of need and value, I'd rank them:

1 - Lamp
2- Reddick
3 - Peppers
4 - McCaffrey
 

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How long do you guys see the top 4 QBs lasting in the draft? By top 4, I'm referring to Watson, Trubisky, Mahommes & Kizer.

There are a lot of QB needy teams ahead of us... SF, CHI, NYJ, BUF, CLE... plus the LA Chargers (Rivers) & New Orleans Saints (Brees) both have aging QBs & could be in the market. Even the Jaguars could be in the market if they don't have a lot of confidence in Bortles.

I think there's a good chance all of them are off the board before we pick at #13... even if 1 is still there, I wonder if it'll be the one that BASK wants. It seems like this is the year to get a QB to groom behind Palmer for a year, but I don't have a lot of confidence of us finding a gem in rounds 2-7. I doubt any of these guys last to the 45th pick.
 
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Mitch

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How long do you guys see the top 4 QBs lasting in the draft? By top 4, I'm referring to Watson, Trubisky, Mahommes & Kizer.

There are a lot of QB needy teams ahead of us... SF, CHI, NYJ, BUF, CLE... plus the LA Chargers (Rivers) & New Orleans Saints (Brees) both have aging QBs & could be in the market.

I think there's a good chance all of them are off the board before we pick at #13... even if 1 is still there, I wonder if it'll be the one that BASK wants. It seems like this is the year to get a QB to groom behind Palmer for a year, but I don't have a lot of confidence of us finding a gem in rounds 2-7.

I think only 1 (Watson) will be off the board at #13, unless someone trades up into the top 12. The top of the draft is loaded with talent -- too good pass up for young, raw QBs with question marks.
 

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I think only 1 (Watson) will be off the board at #13, unless someone trades up into the top 12. The top of the draft is loaded with talent -- too good pass up for young, raw QBs with question marks.

Which is why I want the Cardinals to trade down and take their QBOTF.

I know next year is a big year, but I would rather the Cardinals add a view pieces to next years team but also walk away with a young arm for the future.

Trade down from #13 to about #20 and pick up a 3rd rounder.
 

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I don't know Mitch, these QBs are probably at least on the same level as Wentz & Goff and you saw the crazy trades made to take those guys 1 & 2 last year. QB will always be valued over every other position in the NFL.
 
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Mitch

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I don't know Mitch, these QBs are probably at least on the same level as Wentz & Goff and you saw the crazy trades made to take those guys 1 & 2 last year. QB will always be valued over every other position in the NFL.

Wentz and Goff are much better prospects -- it's not even close. But, because of the value of the position, I agree with you that some teams might reach for a QB sooner than they probably should. The problem is --- there are so many good players at other positions -- it's hard to pass up a 5 year starter for a developmental QB.
 

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