Compared to 2002-03

[George O'Brien]

A lot was made about the fact that the Suns won only 29 games last season, but realistically they wrote that season off when they traded Marbury and Hardaway before dumping Gugliotta. There are a lot of reasons why the team started slowly, but obviously the injury to Amare was why they knew the season was a lost cause.

The real question is whether after cutting the payroll by $20 million, are the Suns better than the 2002-03 team which won 43 games. While it seems clear they overachieved, that team had a lot of injuries.

When comparing this year's Suns to that team, it is striking that only five members of that team are still with the Suns. I think there is good reason to believe all five are better now than in 02-03:

Stoudemire
Marion
Johnson
Jacobsen
Voskuhl

Of the five, I think Johnson has improved the most. Stoudemire has a more complete game and Marion appears to be the same guy that made the All Star team that year. Jacobsen was not a good shooter back then and Voskuhl seems to be a bit better. All are fairly young and still developing.

On the other roster slots, it appears the Suns have upgraded in nearly every position.

Marbury - Nash. Marbury had a great year, but hit only 30.1% of his three point shots. Nash is better at running an offense and is vastly better as an outside shooter. I see this as a clear upgrade.

Hardaway - Richardson. Hardaway had a great year when he was healthy and averaged 10.6 ppg in 30.6 minutes, but lost 26 games to injuries. Richardson has a different set of skills, but should be an overall improvement. Hardaway was simply too slow to play defense and not that great in the running game.

Randy Brown - Barbosa. No contest, Brown did almost nothing while Barbosa looks to be a real impact player.

Langhi - Carbakapa. As poorly as Zarko played last season, he was vastly better than Langhi. Zarko promises to be much better, but couldn't possibly be worse.

Gugliotta - Lampe. Googs played only 27 games and was not effective after returning from his injury. Lampe should be vastly better than Googs even when he was healthy.

Tsakalidis - Hunter. Jake played only 33 games and wasn't effective. As poorly as Hunter played last season, his stats were still better than Jakes were in 2002-03.

Outlaw - Vroman. Tough call. Outlaw's impact didn't really show up in the stats, but his high energy style was very valuable. Vroman is taller and should be a better rebounder and interior defender, but lacks Outlaw's experience.

The only player that does not an obvious analogy is Scott Williams, although he might end up coming back. Scott averaged 12.6 minutes in 69 games, but was more valuable than his stats.

Coach Frank Johnson - Coach Mike D'Antoni. Even D'Antoni's biggest critics say he is a lot better than Johnson.

The bottom line is that this team appears to be vastly more talented than the 2002-03 team. They are deeper, more athletic, and younger. Even after locking in salaries for some of their key players their payroll is only at the salary cap level. IMHO, it is a remarkable accomplishment.

 

[pokerface]

I think you're grasping buddy....Nothing is clear cut.

Nash being better at running the team is just speculation. Even granting you that one Marbury still is a better overall talent but lets just call that matchup even until proven otherwise.

 

[scotsman13]

good piece george.

 

[Joe Mama]

With the way the Phoenix Suns are currently constructed I would take Steve Nash any day of the week over Marbury. We can argue all day about who is a better overall talent, but Nash is clearly a better fit with the Phoenix Suns.

George, I don't think you can seriously compare Vroman to Bo Outlaw at this point. You are either incredibly optimistic or really reaching if you think that one is even. We'll see what happens during the regular season.

Joe Mama

 

[scotsman13]

George, I don't think you can seriously compare Vroman to Bo Outlaw at this point. You are either incredibly optimistic or really reaching if you think that one is even. We'll see what happens during the regular season.

i think that Vroman is going to be a good role player. i think that he will be a player would be an important part of championship (you know the player that will go in and do all of the drity work). but at this point he isnt there yet. i think he will spend the year backing up amare and playing around 12 minutes a game.

 

[Freddie]

Marbury - Nash. Marbury had a great year, but hit only 30.1% of his three point shots. Nash is better at running an offense and is vastly better as an outside shooter. I see this as a clear upgrade.

It's a better fit. The only thing I miss about Marbury are his HUGE fourth quarters and his ability to get a shot at the end of the game.

Hardaway - Richardson. Hardaway had a great year when he was healthy and averaged 10.6 ppg in 30.6 minutes, but lost 26 games to injuries. Richardson has a different set of skills, but should be an overall improvement. Hardaway was simply too slow to play defense and not that great in the running game.

I'm not ready to call 10.6 ppg a great year. Penny was a solid contributor when healthy. One similarity is that they both liked to play on the post. They are both marginal shooters, but Q is a better rebounder and Penny is a better passer, even with those lazy passes(ugh). I'd take Richardson because of his age and lack of injury history.

Randy Brown - Barbosa. No contest, Brown did almost nothing while Barbosa looks to be a real impact player.

I think you're mistaken. Brown was an excellent defensive player. While he was not the prototypical pg, neither is Barbosa. I don't think Barbosa will have as much of an impact as you think. He'll only be playing 15-20 minutes per game. He'll have to be the traditional pg--I don't think it'll be easy for him.

Langhi - Carbakapa. As poorly as Zarko played last season, he was vastly better than Langhi. Zarko promises to be much better, but couldn't possibly be worse.

Zarko frustrates me.

Gugliotta - Lampe. Googs played only 27 games and was not effective after returning from his injury. Lampe should be vastly better than Googs even when he was healthy.

Lampe is not ready to play the 5. He's not strong enough and I doubt he's improved his rebounding and defense to the point where he can effectively play center.

Tsakalidis - Hunter. Jake played only 33 games and wasn't effective. As poorly as Hunter played last season, his stats were still better than Jakes were in 2002-03.

The jury is still out on Hunter. I'm not going to write a homerish statement just because we signed him.

Outlaw - Vroman. Tough call. Outlaw's impact didn't really show up in the stats, but his high energy style was very valuable. Vroman is taller and should be a better rebounder and interior defender, but lacks Outlaw's experience.

Easiest call of them all. Outlaw was a tough, energy and hustle type of guy. he dove for loose balls, hounded the point guard in the backcourt and played the ultimate team game. It's no coincidence that once we traded him to Memphis we failed to get out of the blocks well and the team fell apart. Outlaw played excellent defense and was able to defend 3 positions. Vroman has yet to play in an NBA game. Even if he turns out to be better than Outlaw, it won't be in his rookie year.

 

[jbeecham]

Outlaw played excellent full court pressing defense, but in the half-court defense he was constantly out of position and his man got easy baskets. He consistently tried to double team everyone with the ball and it caused the rest of the Suns to get into foul trouble trying to guard their man and his wide open man.

I appreciated the energy that Outlaw brought to the game, but his half-court defense hurt the team and his offense was worse than his half-court defense.

 

[Gaddabout]

Outlaw was never the player with the Suns he was in his early years with Orlando.

If Vroman makes a regular contribution this season will be a success for him. He doesn't need to do much. If I were his coach, I would set a simple goal for him:

1) Earn 10 minutes per game playing time

2) Grab three boards a game, at least one of of them offensive

3) Shoot 65% from the line (this is a real stretch, I think)

4) Absolutely no alcohol before game day and always keep the number for a taxi in his back pocket.

 

[pokerface]

With the way the Phoenix Suns are currently constructed I would take Steve Nash any day of the week over Marbury. We can argue all day about who is a better overall talent, but Nash is clearly a better fit with the Phoenix Suns.


Joe Mama

Nash isnt clearly anything yet....you havnt even seen him in a Suns uni for a bunch of years

 

[George O'Brien]

My discussion was not on the talent of the players, but on their contribution to the team winning 43 games. Prior to his injury, Big Jake played pretty good defense, but after being injured his contribution was nil even though he came back. The same can be said for Googs.

It is almost impossible for Vroman to contribute more than Outlaw because Bo played an average of 22 minutes a games and Vroman will be lucky to get half of that over games he is available. IMHO, Outlaw was great in Frank Johnson's scramble defense, but his straight up defense and half court offense was not that good. I suspect that Vroman won't contribute as much but also won't present as many negitives either. Obviously this is just a guess.

Penny did play well in 2002-03. 10.8 ppg on 44.8% shooting, 35.6% for three along with 4.4 rpg and 4.1 assists. However, his already medicore defense prior to his injury was made even worse as he seemed to be even slower afterward.

If I were to make better comparison, it would JJ to Penny of 2002-03, because Penny was a starter - and Richardson to JJ of 2002-03. JJ's numbers promise to be better than Penny's of that period and JJ is a much better defender. This would mean Q replaces the role played by JJ, and JJ wasn't very good back then.

 

[Joe Mama]

Nash isnt clearly anything yet....you havnt even seen him in a Suns uni for a bunch of years

oh please. Nash does the three things the Phoenix Suns need most from a point guard. He pushes the ball all the time. He is a consistently accurate outside shooter, and he can break down a defense when there is nothing going in the half-court. Marbury only did the latter.

Joe Mama

 

[SweetD]

Nash isnt clearly anything yet....you havnt even seen him in a Suns uni for a bunch of years

..... And Marbuary hasn't done anything this year either......

 

[pokerface]

All I'm going to say is Nash probably will be a better fit. Lets just not get carried away on the assumptions...Nash is adjusting to a different team and we gave up a lot in Marbury so I dont know how "clear" it all is on how much we improved in the PG position. It seems likely though that Nash will gel better....

 

[minercon]

After so many years of disappointment I have learned two things.....never make any predictions until we have played a minimum of twelve games, and we need to stay healthy (which we never seem able to do) to make any type of impact.

 

[George O'Brien]

After so many years of disappointment I have learned two things.....never make any predictions until we have played a minimum of twelve games, and we need to stay healthy (which we never seem able to do) to make any type of impact.

I generally qualify every prediction with a health qualifyer. Lose Amare for two months and this team is gets another top draft pick.

In any case, I am quite sure that Nash will do well. If nothing else, having a player with a 41.6% career average from the three point arc means the Suns won't see very many zones this season.