Congrats to Barry Bonds...

[Russ Smith]

It's not cheating if it isn't against the rules. If steroids were banned in baseball, I'd agree with you. Taking them in that scenario would be the same as using a corked bat or doctoring the baseball. But it's not the same. Steroids were not banned when Bonds supposedly used them. How can it be cheating to try to gain an advantage that is not outside the boundaries of the rules?

You say I'm spewing crap, but you're the one simply espousing the groupthink view. I asked you a simple question: why is there no place in sports for performance-enhancing drugs? Instead of answering the question, you simply turned around and asked me why there was. I answered you. Players who want to attain peak performance with substances that are not banned are not cheating. They are simply trying to gain an advantage (real or perceived) over their competition.

Now, care to answer my question?

the problem there is even if baseball HAD banned steroids before Barry doped, he'd have gotten away with it because the Balco stuff was DESIGNED to be indetectable.

Is it not cheating because he couldn't be caught? Barry took stuff that he knew would not be detected by ANY existing steroid test at the time, why bother since it wasn't banned? BEcause he correctly assumed eventually baseball would get around to banning steroids. He just didn't bank on some doctor at UCLA getting pissed at the guy who invented "the clear" and sending samples of it to drug testing people, that's the only way they ever found out about it.

And no not everyone had access to that stuff, Balco was Bay Area based and the majority of people who were using it were connected to the bay area, guys like Bonds, Giambi, Raiders players etc. There were some who had other connections but the vast majority of athletes had no clue that stuff was around, that's part of how Balco tried to keep it quiet.

 

[Russ Smith]

Aside from the argument that they shouldn't be banned in the first place, why then did MLB feel the need to change the rules to explicitly ban performance-enhancers? If the fact that they were illegal was sufficient to exclude them before, it shouldn't be necessary to spell it out now.

Because of a lot of people like you saying hey they weren't banned?

 

[DevilsFan]

Mostly because of public outcry and the problem becoming so rampant as to be destroying the very fabric of the game. The integrity of baseball reached a crisis point and something had to be done. Baseball tried to sweep this under the rug for years but eventually had address the issue.

Public outcry = mob rule

Sports is entertainment. It's not jurisprudence. Don't give me any BS about integrity. Athletes are some of the most notorious people in the world. They'll rip each others' heads off for a ring and momentary glory. It's all about giving the public what they want and making bank. Bonds did both of those by using.

 

[Covert Rain]

• Congrats to Barry Bonds for not getting caught red handed cheating.

• Congrats to Barry Bonds for being honest enough to admit that he "accidentally" cheated.

• Congrats to Barry Bonds for having loyal friends willing to keep their mouth shut out of loyalty.....err....donations to their life styles.

• Congrats to Barry Bonds for taken illegal substances to artificially inflate his hitting power and to take what should be routine fly outs into the stands.

• Congrats to Barry Bonds for keeping the integrity of baseball in tact by showing his humbleness over the years and not putting personal goals in front of the integrity of baseball. Like for instance...pulling himself out of another tied game or contributing to one of the biggest scandals in sports history.

• Congrats to Barry Bonds for making a hallowed record less meaningful.

• Congrats to Barry Bonds for being the poster child for the steroid era.

• Congrats to Barry Bonds for knocking a class act who legitimately earned the record and knocking him down a peg.

• Congrats to Barry Bonds for actually keeping a straight face while trying to convince the world that his record "isn't tainted".

• Last but not least congrats to Barry Bonds for making his record breaking contribution so monumental that the general population feels a sigh of relief this is over and can't wait to see less and less of you as the season continues.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I'm out of the loop what has Mays admitted to taking, amphetamines?

Yes. And so have Pete Rose, Mike Schmidt and Willie Stargell among others.

 

[82CardsGrad]

So what you are saying is that you want to change what you initially said, right?

Not sure where you trying to take this DCR, but I'm sure it's feeble nonetheless...
My position on this topic has been consistent throughout... Have fun trying to twist my words into things I never said...

 

[82CardsGrad]

Mostly because of public outcry and the problem becoming so rampant as to be destroying the very fabric of the game. The integrity of baseball reached a crisis point and something had to be done. Baseball tried to sweep this under the rug for years but eventually had address the issue.

You really didn't expect him to grasp the meaning behind "the fabric of the game", did you??

 

[82CardsGrad]

It's not cheating if it isn't against the rules. If steroids were banned in baseball, I'd agree with you. Taking them in that scenario would be the same as using a corked bat or doctoring the baseball. But it's not the same. Steroids were not banned when Bonds supposedly used them. How can it be cheating to try to gain an advantage that is not outside the boundaries of the rules?

You say I'm spewing crap, but you're the one simply espousing the groupthink view. I asked you a simple question: why is there no place in sports for performance-enhancing drugs? Instead of answering the question, you simply turned around and asked me why there was. I answered you. Players who want to attain peak performance with substances that are not banned are not cheating. They are simply trying to gain an advantage (real or perceived) over their competition.

Now, care to answer my question?

1.) There is no place in sports for performance-enhancing drugs that are illegal (in the context of U.S. law), or specifically noted as banned by a professional league or organization. When Bonds and others were doing roids, they were not noted as banned by MLB, but they were illegal substances...
2.) There is no place in sports for performance-enhancing drugs because pro sports are supposed to be not about artifically doctoring/augmenting with your body via illegal and/or banned substances.
3.) Clearly you have either never embraced the true essence of sport and competition, or you have simply given up and moved to the dark side. In either case, it seems to put you in the minority which, if nothing else is a bit reassuring to me...

Lastly, care to answer my question which you have not-so-cleverly dodged? If taking roids wasn't cheating, why then did Barry Bonds go to such great lengths to conceal that which would not constitute cheating?
I'll wait...

 

[DWKB]

The only people who care about asterisks are nitwit stat geeks like Bill James

Funny, I don't remember Bill James commenting on the steroids issue that much and as a very big fan of his and friend of some of his former assistants, I take a lot of offense with you calling him a nitwit. It's an ignorant and unjustified statement and takes away from any argument you might have had.

 

[DWKB]

Not looking to argue with anyone, just share my opinion. I am very disappointed with the reaction to this cheater. I don't think Barry Bonds is legit. The record still belongs to Hank Aaron (in my book), and Roger Maris is still the single season leader.

*

To me the records really belong to Roger Conner and Ned Williamson.
Anything after them and you've got the diluted pitching (7 300 game winners from this era) from the addition of the AL, the smaller ballparks and the tighter wound live baseball that just fly out of the park and a longer season allowing you to hit more HRs.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Not sure where you trying to take this DCR, but I'm sure it's feeble nonetheless...
My position on this topic has been consistent throughout... Have fun trying to twist my words into things I never said...

I'll post this one more time. Just so you can say that you never said it.

Any player who used roids or any other illegal drug should be scrutinzed and dealt with accordingly.

You said any player taking any drug. I pointed out to you that Babe has been known to do cocaine and heroin. But because that is not a performance enhancing drug, you don't care about that one. Am I right?

It sounds like you should have said "any player who used roids or any other performance enhancing drugs should be scrutinized and dealt with accordingly." Right?

Don't dare tell me that I am twisting your words around, because I am quoting them and taking them literally. Maybe you should think before you post, so you won't misspeak, if that wasn't your intention.

 

[jjdowney]

I've said it before but I think MLB should penalize any player breaking the law. Barry broke the law, and if Ruth had been caught while playing ball, he should also have been penalized.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I'll post this one more time. Just so you can say that you never said it.







You said any player taking any drug. I pointed out to you that Babe has been known to do cocaine and heroin. But because that is not a performance enhancing drug, you don't care about that one. Am I right?

It sounds like you should have said "any player who used roids or any other performance enhancing drugs should be scrutinized and dealt with accordingly." Right?

Don't dare tell me that I am twisting your words around, because I am quoting them and taking them literally. Maybe you should think before you post, so you won't misspeak, if that wasn't your intention.

You're fascination with this is odd DCR... As I've said, I'm quite comfortable with what I have said on this issue, and my position has been very consistent all along.
Why do you keep bringing up Babe Ruth?? To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever convicted him, or even tried to convict him, of taking illegal drugs. You are accusing a man who played almost a decade ago of taking heroin and coke?? Based on what? Was there any legal investigations to support these claims? Was he ever brought in front of a jury to explain this issue?? What a joke...

 

[dreamcastrocks]

You're fascination with this is odd DCR... As I've said, I'm quite comfortable with what I have said on this issue, and my position has been very consistent all along.
Why do you keep bringing up Babe Ruth?? To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever convicted him, or even tried to convict him, of taking illegal drugs. You are accusing a man who played almost a decade ago of taking heroin and coke?? Based on what? Was there any legal investigations to support these claims? Was he ever brought in front of a jury to explain this issue?? What a joke...

Consistent? You say that you have been consistent, but have been backpedaling on the "illegal drug" comment ever sense you made it. I understand your position on performance enhancement drugs, but the illegal drug comment has not kept your position consistent. Should Babe's achievements be tainted? Or does the fact that legal charges weren't brought up, and there hasn't been a witchhunt against Babe affect your position.

Instead of decade, you must have meant century and Babe Ruth correct?

Who cares if he was ever brought in front of a grand jury or not. Many close people around Babe, including his wife has told grand tales of his drug use.

Call it a joke all you want. It still doesn't change the fact that you are changing what you said. I'm only bringing up Babe, because I was using that in my example to find out how you truly feel about all drugs, not just the performance enhancement ones. Should I switch to Willie Mays? He has done those "performance enhancement drugs" that you appear to be so against.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Consistent? You say that you have been consistent, but have been backpedaling on the "illegal drug" comment ever sense you made it. I understand your position on performance enhancement drugs, but the illegal drug comment has not kept your position consistent. Should Babe's achievements be tainted? Or does the fact that legal charges weren't brought up, and there hasn't been a witchhunt against Babe affect your position.

Instead of decade, you must have meant century and Babe Ruth correct?

Who cares if he was ever brought in front of a grand jury or not. Many close people around Babe, including his wife has told grand tales of his drug use.

Call it a joke all you want. It still doesn't change the fact that you are changing what you said. I'm only bringing up Babe, because I was using that in my example to find out how you truly feel about all drugs, not just the performance enhancement ones. Should I switch to Willie Mays? He has done those "performance enhancement drugs" that you appear to be so against.

Uh - yea... I meant century...

Bringing up the Babe and claiming his wife told wild tales of his drug use is, well..., at minimum a stretch and way funny!

If you want to acutely examine what I said DCR, lets do just that...
As you have pointed out time and again, I said:

Any player who used roids or any other illegal drug should be scrutinzed and dealt with accordingly.

And this is what I mean... If Mays did infact take amphetamines, he should have been dealt with in whatever manner the law would have dictated at that time. Now, IMO - amphetamines are not taken for the same reason one would take Steroids. Steroids are taken for the sole purpose to enhance your performance over an extended period of time (many years). It is understood that taking roids would provide you with strength, quickness and endurance over an extended period of time that people not on roids and even those taking amphetamines would not possess.
So, while Mays should have been "dealt with" (as my statement indicated) for taking an illegal drug, it remains a far cry and not an appropriate comparison to Bonds and steroids...
The record does speak clearly to this point. Look at Mays' career numbers, and then check out Bonds. With regard to Mays, you can not see any large-scale and out of proportion jump in performance from year to year or period of time to period of time, as you can with Baroid... Bonds hit 292 HR's in his first 10 years in the league! He hit 442 over the next 10 years!!

I really don't know how to make this any more clear to you... You seem to be driven to expose a point that simply isn't there...
Enjoy...

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Uh - yea... I meant century...

Bringing up the Babe and claiming his wife told wild tales of his drug use is, well..., at minimum a stretch and way funny!

If you want to acutely examine what I said DCR, lets do just that...
As you have pointed out time and again, I said:

Any player who used roids or any other illegal drug should be scrutinzed and dealt with accordingly.

And this is what I mean... If Mays did infact take amphetamines, he should have been dealt with in whatever manner the law would have dictated at that time. Now, IMO - amphetamines are not taken for the same reason one would take Steroids. Steroids are taken for the sole purpose to enhance your performance over an extended period of time (many years). It is understood that taking roids would provide you with strength, quickness and endurance over an extended period of time that people not on roids and even those taking amphetamines would not possess.
So, while Mays should have been "dealt with" (as my statement indicated) for taking an illegal drug, it remains a far cry and not an appropriate comparison to Bonds and steroids...
The record does speak clearly to this point. Look at Mays' career numbers, and then check out Bonds. With regard to Mays, you can not see any large-scale and out of proportion jump in performance from year to year or period of time to period of time, as you can with Baroid... Bonds hit 292 HR's in his first 10 years in the league! He hit 442 over the next 10 years!!

I really don't know how to make this any more clear to you... You seem to be driven to expose a point that simply isn't there...
Enjoy...

You actually just did make it more clear. Thanks.

 

[Black Jesus]

The reason i dont have an issue with this is because

A). I know of at least 3 high school coaches at major 5A schools in Arizona that distribute themselves or have put there players in contact with people who sell them, and many others that encourage.

B.) Personally know 15 or so collegiant athletes that DO or have done them in the past.

C.) Every player is huge these days. If i were to estimate the amount of players that have done them at some point in their lives to get ahead in either the sport of baseball or football. It would be well over 60% of the players since 1980. If I personally wanted steroids right now, I could have them delivered to my house in less than an hour, thats how easy it is to get steroids.

WHO CARES, yes they do everything they can to keep players from doing these substances, however the bottom line is that there are ways to play better in all sports through nutrition, chemicals, and supplements. Thats why baseball players often take speed, steroids, and other stuff, while cyclists take EPO, and football players take steroids.

I am not saying that these organizations shouldn't test for the substances, but come on. I have cheated on tests and will again. I run stoplights and I will again. I have driven under the influence before, and hope to not again.

 

[Black Jesus]

I dont have a problem with the babe doing drugs, because Cocaine and Marijuana or anything else is not going to make you perform better.

 

[PoolBoy]

I dont have a problem with the babe doing drugs, because Cocaine and Marijuana or anything else is not going to make you perform better.

HGH? it helped barry a little....

 

[Feeble Mcjackson]

these are some pretty serious allegations here. I for one hope you find the strength to report this to the authorities if it is true. If not, I hope one of the forum moderators turns this information over to the authorities. There is no reason for coaches putting this stuff in the hands of our kids.

Please, be part of the solution

The reason i dont have an issue with this is because

A). I know of at least 3 high school coaches at major 5A schools in Arizona that distribute themselves or have put there players in contact with people who sell them, and many others that encourage.

B.) Personally know 15 or so collegiant athletes that DO or have done them in the past.

C.) Every player is huge these days. If i were to estimate the amount of players that have done them at some point in their lives to get ahead in either the sport of baseball or football. It would be well over 60% of the players since 1980. If I personally wanted steroids right now, I could have them delivered to my house in less than an hour, thats how easy it is to get steroids.

WHO CARES, yes they do everything they can to keep players from doing these substances, however the bottom line is that there are ways to play better in all sports through nutrition, chemicals, and supplements. Thats why baseball players often take speed, steroids, and other stuff, while cyclists take EPO, and football players take steroids.

I am not saying that these organizations shouldn't test for the substances, but come on. I have cheated on tests and will again. I run stoplights and I will again. I have driven under the influence before, and hope to not again.